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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #614997 > unrolled thread
| Started by | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-07-11 09:14 -0700 |
| Last post | 2023-07-13 02:42 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 101 — 16 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.physics.relativity
Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 09:14 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-07-11 13:19 -0500
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:19 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 14:31 -0500
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:55 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 16:03 -0500
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 09:41 +0200
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 00:53 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:28 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:38 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 12:12 +0200
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 17:00 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 00:13 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 22:11 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 05:16 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 08:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 16:44 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 17:08 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 17:55 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:00 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:05 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:17 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:21 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:11 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:01 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:11 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 23:17 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 00:03 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 09:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 11:46 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 12:20 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 14:39 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 15:41 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:35 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 17:49 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:53 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 18:30 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 18:33 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 22:32 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:28 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 19:38 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:58 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 02:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 04:45 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 05:08 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 14:22 -0400
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 11:26 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 18:21 -0400
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 16:28 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-15 19:48 -0400
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 16:54 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:34 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:42 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 16:08 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 16:49 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:17 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:15 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 01:44 -0400
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:57 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 02:50 -0400
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Mitchell Demas <letl@alliecim.he> - 2023-07-17 09:28 +0000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:08 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Newton Patselas <nale@lsawttnp.no> - 2023-07-17 09:54 +0000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 10:05 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 11:30 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 06:32 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 07:43 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 09:39 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 09:48 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 10:56 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 19:15 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 19:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 20:02 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:35 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 06:21 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-15 16:50 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 13:18 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 20:55 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:03 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:08 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:34 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:36 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:48 -0500
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:47 -0500
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Teofilo Totolos <tltt@tooioltt.lo> - 2023-07-12 13:58 +0000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 14:29 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 19:04 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 19:09 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:19 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:23 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 22:20 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 22:58 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 23:10 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 20:37 +1000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:32 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:39 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-07-12 11:37 +0000
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 06:01 -0700
Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 02:42 -0700
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 09:14 -0700 |
| Subject | Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler |
| Message-ID | <58ab40c0-59d6-4268-8b05-285c26921dcfn@googlegroups.com> |
An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? Do I have to do all the heavy lifting again, or will someone else work this out? I am recovering from a weekend murder attempt and its aftermath. I spent all Sunday replacing all six lug studs on my rear passenger side wheel. Five of the lug studs had been maliciously snapped off, leaving only one lug stud and nut to hold my rear tire on the hub. I found this out after having traveled 20 miles, including 10 miles on I-5. Yes, someone attempted to kill me. Why? The Big Ben Paradox of course!
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| From | Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 13:19 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <w4WcnRzmmt-tADD5nZ2dnZfqlJ9j4p2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #614997 |
On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: > An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year > (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in > London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big > Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with > the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition to very basic physics. Tom Roberts
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 12:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f957ebcd-0b6d-4b5a-98b8-44c12f659552n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615011 |
On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: > On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: > > An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year > > (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in > > London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big > > Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with > > the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? > THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated > using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. > > You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition > to very basic physics. > > Tom Roberts I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards.
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| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 14:31 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kh5p1cFk5hoU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615016 |
On 7/11/2023 2:19 PM, patdolan wrote: > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: >> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: >>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year >>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in >>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big >>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with >>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? >> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated >> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! > > Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. >> >> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition >> to very basic physics. >> >> Tom Roberts > > > I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. Paranoid as well then. OK!
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 12:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e0dbb92c-842b-4963-aa6c-3144d72b8807n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615017 |
On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 12:32:00 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote: > On 7/11/2023 2:19 PM, patdolan wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: > >> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: > >>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year > >>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in > >>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big > >>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with > >>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? > >> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated > >> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! > > > > Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. > >> > >> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition > >> to very basic physics. > >> > >> Tom Roberts > > > > > > I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. > Paranoid as well then. OK! Starmaker, FIVE lug studs do not break off all at the same time. If they (the relativity mafia) get me then YOU are next. Bodkin claimed he had close family in the Fremont neighborhood...
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| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-11 16:03 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kh5ucbFl09nU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615019 |
On 7/11/2023 2:55 PM, patdolan wrote: > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 12:32:00 PM UTC-7, whodat wrote: >> On 7/11/2023 2:19 PM, patdolan wrote: >>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: >>>> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: >>>>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year >>>>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in >>>>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big >>>>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with >>>>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? >>>> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated >>>> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! >>> >>> Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. >>>> >>>> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition >>>> to very basic physics. >>>> >>>> Tom Roberts >>> >>> >>> I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. >> Paranoid as well then. OK! > Starmaker, FIVE lug studs do not break off all at the same time. If they (the relativity mafia) get me then YOU are next. Bodkin claimed he had close family in the Fremont neighborhood... Thanks for the reaffirmation.
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| From | Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 09:41 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <kh73pkFqldmU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615019 |
On 2023-07-11 19:55:02 +0000, patdolan said: > > [ … ] > > Starmaker, FIVE lug studs do not break off all at the same time. If > they (the relativity mafia) get me then YOU are next. Bodkin claimed > he had close family in the Fremont neighborhood... Delusions of grandeur again. Why on earth do you think that the relativity mafia (if it existed) would bother to "get" a nonentity such as yourself with no influence whatsoever on the progress of physics? No one would care one way or the other if you stopped posting here. The sane people only come to this group for amusement, not for enlightenment. -- athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots
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| From | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 00:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d940422d-81c9-498f-a3c5-8a6a2de24388n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615059 |
On Wednesday, 12 July 2023 at 09:41:45 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: > one would care one way or the other if you stopped posting here. The > sane people only come to this group for amusement, not for > enlightenment. Well, that's of course a lie, and you're not stupid enough to really believe it is not. Like any other religious maniac you're accepting lying - for the cause is just.
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| From | Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 02:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e2bc661d-b282-4c8c-b0a7-5d6c9a3362ffn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615059 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:41:45 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: > On 2023-07-11 19:55:02 +0000, patdolan said: > The > sane people only come to this group for amusement, not for > enlightenment. Some people come for other reasons. I posted here a link to my latest contribution to Wikipedia because, although Wikipedia is ultimately self-correcting, its "peer- review" process is slow and unreliable. Gross errors can persist *years* before being caught, for example, the ridiculous discussion about gamma rays resulting from electron transitions in the Pound-Rebka was introduced in May 2016: DIFF to introduced text: https://tinyurl.com/5n7zdtcm Current version: https://tinyurl.com/mwrzmr6t Here, however, I am lucky enough to have an "enemy" who will do anything to tear me down, and who carefully combs through anything I write in hopes of showing me up. Sure enough, Dono caught me in a silly typo, for which I again publicly thank him! I make mistakes, sometimes bad ones. Peer review and being occasionally "outed" for one's mistakes is good for the soul. :-) I wish Dono could learn that life lesson. After years, he still hasn't admitted to any of a fair number of whoppers that I (and others) have pointed out. He could make really positive contributions to these groups if he could only change his attitude.
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| From | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 02:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e23ddc35-cc0d-4d78-9ad7-f0acf25778c4n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615062 |
On Wednesday, 12 July 2023 at 11:28:33 UTC+2, Prokaryotic Capase Homolog wrote: > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:41:45 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: > > On 2023-07-11 19:55:02 +0000, patdolan said: > > > The > > sane people only come to this group for amusement, not for > > enlightenment. > Some people come for other reasons. All do. And he knows that. He's lying as a part of your Holy Crusade.
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| From | Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 12:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <kh7ck0Fs0f9U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615062 |
On 2023-07-12 09:28:31 +0000, Prokaryotic Capase Homolog said: > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 2:41:45 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote: >> On 2023-07-11 19:55:02 +0000, patdolan said: >> The> sane people only come to this group for amusement, not for> enlightenment. > Some people come for other reasons. I posted here > a link to my latest contribution to Wikipedia because,although > Wikipedia is ultimately self-correcting, its "peer- > review" process is slow and unreliable. Gross errors > can persist *years* before being caught, Oh yes, you're right about that. I've tried to do something about the gross errors and misunderstandings that clutter the enzyme articles, but it's a huge task and I shall probably have died before finishing it. > for example, > the ridiculous discussion about gamma rays resulting > from electron transitions in the Pound-Rebkawas introduced in May 2016: > DIFF to introduced text: https://tinyurl.com/5n7zdtcm > Current version: https://tinyurl.com/mwrzmr6t > > > -- > athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots
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| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 17:00 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <kh71coFq7vjU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615016 |
On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote: > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: >> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: >>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year >>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in >>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big >>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with >>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? >> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated >> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! > > Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course they have. But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about it. If it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago. >> >> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition >> to very basic physics. >> >> Tom Roberts > > > I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you would need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're capable. Sylvia.
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 00:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e0d91ea3-f87f-4e3c-b860-9d922793609fn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615056 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:00:44 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote: > On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote: > > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: > >> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: > >>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year > >>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in > >>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big > >>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with > >>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? > >> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated > >> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! > > > > Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. > You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course they have. > But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about it. If > it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago. > >> > >> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition > >> to very basic physics. > >> > >> Tom Roberts > > > > > > I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. > If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work > required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you would > need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're capable. > > Sylvia. I have done the work. Two posts up. SR provides two methods to compute the proper and coordinate duration of the traveling twin's flight. The LT time dilation formula ∆t' = ∆t/gamma is in conflict with with the relativistic doppler formulae when applied to a the twins paradox.
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| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 22:11 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <kh7jjcFsv3bU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #615057 |
On 12-July-23 5:13 pm, patdolan wrote: > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:00:44 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote: >> On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote: >>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: >>>> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: >>>>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year >>>>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in >>>>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big >>>>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with >>>>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? >>>> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated >>>> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! >>> >>> Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. >> You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course they have. >> But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about it. If >> it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago. >>>> >>>> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition >>>> to very basic physics. >>>> >>>> Tom Roberts >>> >>> >>> I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. >> If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work >> required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you would >> need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're capable. >> >> Sylvia. > I have done the work. Two posts up. SR provides two methods to compute the proper and coordinate duration of the traveling twin's flight. The LT time dilation formula ∆t' = ∆t/gamma is in conflict with with the relativistic doppler formulae when applied to a the twins paradox. There is no Lorentz Transformation time dilation formula. Time dilation is a popular-science special case of the Lorentz Transformation that many people, including you, end up misapplying. Sylvia.
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| From | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 05:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <800ea4c2-059e-4c04-9c6c-a0220316d79dn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615075 |
On Wednesday, 12 July 2023 at 14:11:28 UTC+2, Sylvia Else wrote: > There is no Lorentz Transformation time dilation formula. Time dilation > is a popular-science special case of the Lorentz Transformation Get conscious, lady. LT exists only in SR; how about TD?
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 08:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <714a0e87-16ce-4475-b4c2-c8f20f7d1759n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615075 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:11:28 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote: > On 12-July-23 5:13 pm, patdolan wrote: > > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:00:44 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote: > >> On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote: > >>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote: > >>>> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote: > >>>>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year > >>>>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in > >>>>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big > >>>>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with > >>>>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip? > >>>> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated > >>>> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL! > >>> > >>> Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations. > >> You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course they have. > >> But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about it. If > >> it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago. > >>>> > >>>> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition > >>>> to very basic physics. > >>>> > >>>> Tom Roberts > >>> > >>> > >>> I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards. > >> If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work > >> required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you would > >> need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're capable. > >> > >> Sylvia. > > I have done the work. Two posts up. SR provides two methods to compute the proper and coordinate duration of the traveling twin's flight. The LT time dilation formula ∆t' = ∆t/gamma is in conflict with with the relativistic doppler formulae when applied to a the twins paradox. > There is no Lorentz Transformation time dilation formula. Time dilation > is a popular-science special case of the Lorentz Transformation that > many people, including you, end up misapplying. > > Sylvia. Okay Sylvia Else, I'll take you at your word and accept that there is some non-populist, gnostic method in which to apply the LTs in this situation that reconciles them with the rel-dop equations. And furthermore, I'll admit that as a populist, I don't understand that method. Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance of the correct method or will you teach it to me?
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| From | Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 16:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1fc9a356-57a4-46e1-a1b5-375d594fa108n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615085 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:50:54 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: > Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance > of the correct method or will you teach it to me? Both! The teaching: You're assuming that the earth event that's simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's outbound coordinate system is the same as the earth event that is simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's inbound coordinate system. That's an incorrect assumption, because between those two earth events is an elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 where T is the rocket's elapsed proper time on each leg, and g equals 1/sqrt(1-v^2). Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket.
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| From | patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 17:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a8fdc571-3ec0-4042-a0aa-40d9a68c2954n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615107 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 4:44:21 PM UTC-7, Bill wrote: > On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:50:54 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: > > Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance > > of the correct method or will you teach it to me? > Both! The teaching: You're assuming that the earth event that's simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's outbound coordinate system is the same as the earth event that is simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's inbound coordinate system. That's an incorrect assumption, because between those two earth events is an elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 where T is the rocket's elapsed proper time on each leg, and g equals 1/sqrt(1-v^2). Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket. I am assuming nothing. To make sure I have not assumed anything I have kept a very powerful telescopic video camera trained on face of Big Ben for all phases of the trip. So we are thereby guaranteed by video evidence that the little hand of Big Ben has revolved 29220 times (40 years in the earth's frame) during the trip. But while the relativistic doppler effect is definitely directional, relativistic time dilation is just as definitely non-directional. Time dilations is straight up ∆t' = ∆t/gamma. No ifs, ands, or buts. With this in mind, please revise your explanation. (I suspect that there might be a Legion in the woodpile, which I welcome.)
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| From | Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 17:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f263c2e0-95b9-4d72-9b65-5b66804f6506n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615108 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:08:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: > > > Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance > > > of the correct method or will you teach it to me? > > > > Both! The teaching: You're assuming that the earth event that's simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's outbound coordinate system is the same as the earth event that is simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's inbound coordinate system. That's an incorrect assumption, because between those two earth events is an elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 where T is the rocket's elapsed proper time on each leg, and g equals 1/sqrt(1-v^2). Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket. > > I am assuming nothing. Not true, you asserted that the earth time *corresponding to* the rocket's outbound poroper time of T is T/g, and the earth time *corresponding to* the rocket's inbound proper duration of T is also T/g, so (you claimed) relativity says the total earth elapsed time is 2T/g, which, as you point out, differs from the elapsed earth time of 2Tg observed in the rocket's telescope. So, just as I said, your reasoning assumes that the relativistic calculation for the total elapsed time on earth is just T/g + T/g. That is not the correct relativistic calculation. As explained above, you are omitting the elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 between the earth events that are simultaneous with the rocket's turn-around event in terms of the two coordinate systems. Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket. This agrees exactly with what is observed in the rocket's telescope. (Of course, it also agrees exactly with what is observed on an earth telescope looking at the rocket, but you didn't ask about that.)
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| From | Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-07-12 18:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d8ea19de-e859-4ec8-ae32-1c05c61e16abn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #615108 |
On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:08:49 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote: > > > Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance > > > of the correct method or will you teach it to me? > > > > Both! The teaching: You're assuming that the earth event that's simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's outbound coordinate system is the same as the earth event that is simultaneous with the rocket turn-around event in terms of the rocket's inbound coordinate system. That's an incorrect assumption, because between those two earth events is an elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 where T is the rocket's elapsed proper time on each leg, and g equals 1/sqrt(1-v^2). Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket. > > I am assuming nothing. Not true, you asserted that the earth time *corresponding to* the rocket's outbound proper time of T is T/g, and the earth time *corresponding to* the rocket's inbound proper duration of T is also T/g, so (you claimed) relativity says the total earth elapsed time is 2T/g, which, as you point out, differs from the elapsed earth time of 2Tg observed in the rocket's telescope. So, just as I said, your reasoning assumes that the relativistic calculation for the total elapsed time on earth is just T/g + T/g. That is not the correct relativistic calculation. As explained above, you're omitting the elapsed earth time of 2Tgv^2 between the earth events that are simultaneous with the rocket's turn-around event in terms of the two coordinate systems. Adding this to the two elapsed times of T/g gives the correct result 2Tg for the earth's total elapsed proper time, compared with 2T for the rocket. This agrees exactly with what is observed in the rocket's telescope. (Of course, it also agrees exactly with what is observed on an earth telescope looking at the rocket, but you didn't ask about that.) > But while the relativistic doppler effect is definitely directional, relativistic > time dilation is just as definitely non-directional. Right, but the skew of simultaneity is directional, and that's what you are omitting from your attempted relativistic calculation, by overlooking the large span of time between the two temporal foliations of the outbound and inbound coordinate systems.
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