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Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ?

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  Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 19:09 +0100
    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 18:41 +0000
      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 20:38 +0100
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-14 07:28 -0700
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-14 16:26 +0000
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 01:31 +0100
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 23:27 -0400
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 14:35 +0000
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 09:17 -0700
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-15 06:40 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 09:28 -0700
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-15 10:22 -0700
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-16 12:14 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 17:32 -0700
    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-12 12:20 -0700
      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-12 21:03 +0100
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-12 13:37 -0700
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-06-13 11:34 +1000
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 01:59 +0100
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-06-15 11:17 +1000
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 23:40 -0400
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 23:33 -0400
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-06-13 11:40 +1000
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-15 16:17 -0700
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-06-16 20:27 +1000
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-16 05:40 -0700
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-06-12 19:43 -0700
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-06-13 12:06 -0700
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 21:47 +0100
            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-13 21:55 -0700
              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-14 07:10 -0700
                Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? Werner Ballard <db@ocowak.br> - 2018-06-14 15:54 +0000
                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-14 09:25 -0700
                    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 02:25 +0100
                      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Werner Ballard <db@ocoak.bn> - 2018-06-16 14:02 +0000
                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-15 00:17 +0200
                    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-14 15:34 -0700
                      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-15 01:13 +0200
                        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-14 17:53 -0700
                          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-15 06:22 +0200
                            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-15 06:44 -0700
                              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Werner Ballard <db@ocoak.bn> - 2018-06-15 14:32 +0000
                              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-16 10:00 +0200
                                Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-16 08:13 -0700
                                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Werner Ballard <db@ocoak.bn> - 2018-06-16 15:24 +0000
                                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-06-18 14:06 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC   SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-14 10:30 -0700
                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC   SPACE ? dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-06-14 11:52 -0700
                    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 15:08 -0400
                      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-14 13:00 -0700
                        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 16:13 -0400
                          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-14 13:55 -0700
                            Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 17:22 -0400
                              Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-14 15:25 -0700
                                Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-14 23:21 -0400
                                  Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-15 12:25 -0700
                                    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-15 18:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC  SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-15 15:22 -0700
                                        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-06-15 18:44 -0400
                                        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC   SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-15 15:54 -0700
    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-06-12 16:26 -0700
    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-06-12 18:07 -0700
      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Zandra Sobczak <acako@raswa.bo> - 2018-06-13 12:24 +0000
        Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-06-13 05:59 -0700
          Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Zandra Sobczak <acako@raswa.bo> - 2018-06-13 13:37 +0000
    Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> - 2018-06-14 01:37 +1000
      Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-06-13 21:31 +0100
    Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-13 16:13 -0700
      Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-13 16:20 -0700
        Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-13 16:22 -0700

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#461308

On 6/14/2018 9:17 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> It is not remotely reasonable to suppose that light behaves in a 
> fundamentally different way just because there are a few atoms per cubic 
> metre in the space traversed by the light.

There is a reason to believe there is a change of behavior when the 
medium is largely continuous (distance between atoms is small compared 
to the wavelength of light) and when the medium is no longer continuous 
but a bunch of discrete atoms which are many wavelengths apart.
For example, chicken wire fencing will reflect radio waves whose 
wavelength is quite a bit larger than the hole size, but chicken wire 
lets most light through. Also your microwave oven usually has a glass 
door with a metal screen/sheet with holes. You can see the food in it 
but the microwaves can't get out.

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#461307

On 6/14/2018 8:59 PM, Keith Stein wrote:
>   Sylvia, there never has been, and never will be, an experimental
> determination of the speed of light in vacuum.

Doesn't matter. Right now the difference between the speed of light in a 
good lab vacuum and the theoretical perfect vacuum speed of light is not 
measurable with current technology. So from very small extrapolation, we 
know what happens, just as we know things about absolute zero 
(unreachable although we have gotten extremely close)

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#461115

On 13/06/2018 6:03 AM, Keith Stein wrote:
>
> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going
> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't.
> 
> keith stein

If it's slowing down, then it's slowing down at some rate. Can you 
construct a model that doesn't require a preferred frame, and doesn't 
make the Earth occupy a unique place at the centre of the universe?

Unless you've constructed such a model, you have nothing more than vague 
speculation.

Sylvia.

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#461420

Sylvia Else
On 13/06/2018 6:03 AM, Keith Stein wrote: 
> 
> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in 
> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going 
> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't. 
> 
> keith stein 

If it's slowing down, then it's slowing down at some rate. Can you 
construct a model that doesn't require a preferred frame, and doesn't 
make the Earth occupy a unique place at the centre of the universe? 

Unless you've constructed such a model, you have nothing more than vague 
speculation. 

Sylvia. 

Pressure .... c is constant because Global Pressure is constant 

Hubble redshift is the global Pressure changing with Rising Global Entropy of the System. 

Information about “Local Pressure Changes” can only travel at c, because instead of a “Causality Violation” occurring, energy is turned into Matter via E/c^2 = m

Easy Peasy

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#461451

On 16/06/2018 9:17 AM, David (Kronos Prime) Fuller wrote:
> Sylvia Else
> On 13/06/2018 6:03 AM, Keith Stein wrote:
>>
>> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
>> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going
>> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't.
>>
>> keith stein
> 
> If it's slowing down, then it's slowing down at some rate. Can you
> construct a model that doesn't require a preferred frame, and doesn't
> make the Earth occupy a unique place at the centre of the universe?
> 
> Unless you've constructed such a model, you have nothing more than vague
> speculation.
> 
> Sylvia.
> 
> Pressure .... c is constant because Global Pressure is constant
> 
> Hubble redshift is the global Pressure changing with Rising Global Entropy of the System.
> 
> Information about “Local Pressure Changes” can only travel at c, because instead of a “Causality Violation” occurring, energy is turned into Matter via E/c^2 = m
> 
> Easy Peasy
> 
You appear to be under the impression that that means something.

Sylvia.

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#461456

Sylvia Else sharted 

On 16/06/2018 9:17 AM, David (Kronos Prime) Fuller wrote: 
> Sylvia Else 
> On 13/06/2018 6:03 AM, Keith Stein wrote: 
>> 
>> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in 
>> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going 
>> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't. 
>> 
>> keith stein 
> 
> If it's slowing down, then it's slowing down at some rate. Can you 
> construct a model that doesn't require a preferred frame, and doesn't 
> make the Earth occupy a unique place at the centre of the universe? 
> 
> Unless you've constructed such a model, you have nothing more than vague 
> speculation. 
> 
> Sylvia. 
> 
> Pressure .... c is constant because Global Pressure is constant 
> 
> Hubble redshift is the global Pressure changing with Rising Global Entropy of the System. 
> 
> Information about “Local Pressure Changes” can only travel at c, because instead of a “Causality Violation” occurring, energy is turned into Matter via E/c^2 = m 
> 
> Easy Peasy 
> 
You appear to be under the impression that that means something. 

Sylvia. 

FOR FUCKS SAKE .... it’s just the “Fluid Solution”

You’re just an obstinate obfuscating Troll 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_solution

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#461122

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:
> On 12/06/2018 20:20, dlzc wrote:
> > Dear Keith Stein:
> > 
> > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:09:39 AM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:
> >> I understand of course how it can be extrapolated
> >> from measurements in laboratories on Earth, but is
> >> it possible, even in theory, to MEASURE the speed
> >> at which light travels through intergalactic space ?
> > 
> > Well, they do infer "instantaneous" expansion rates, using Einstein crosses, where the different images are different distances from the gravity center.  So this "assumes" a constant speed of light over that entire path, regardless of duration.
> > 
> > So if you had something in mind, there'd be the precise timing necessary to validate or invalidate "some value' for a speed of light.
> > 
> > David A. Smith
> > 
> Thanks for the response David.
> 
> I rather think Einstein DEFINED the speed of light to be constant.

Which IS the case.


> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
> intergalactic space is actually slowing down

What gives you this bright idea, imbecile? 

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#461165

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:
> On 12/06/2018 20:20, dlzc wrote:
> > Dear Keith Stein:
> > 
> > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:09:39 AM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:
> >> I understand of course how it can be extrapolated
> >> from measurements in laboratories on Earth, but is
> >> it possible, even in theory, to MEASURE the speed
> >> at which light travels through intergalactic space ?
> > 
> > Well, they do infer "instantaneous" expansion rates, using Einstein crosses, where the different images are different distances from the gravity center.  So this "assumes" a constant speed of light over that entire path, regardless of duration.
> > 
> > So if you had something in mind, there'd be the precise timing necessary to validate or invalidate "some value' for a speed of light.
> > 
> > David A. Smith
> > 
> Thanks for the response David.
> 
> I rather think Einstein DEFINED the speed of light to be constant.
> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going
> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't.
> 
> keith stein

Hu? You are not entitled to your own facts.
The universe is expanding and light accelerates...

Mitchell Raemsch

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#461174

On 13/06/2018 20:06, mitchrae3323@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:

>>
>> I rather think Einstein DEFINED the speed of light to be constant.
>> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
>> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going
>> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't.
>>
>> keith stein
> 
> Hu? You are not entitled to your own facts.
> The universe is expanding and light accelerates...
> 
> Mitchell Raemsch
> 

What a red-shift really tells us Mitchell is that
the rear of the wave takes longer to reach us than
the front of the wave.
Now this could feasible be because it has further to
travel to us, in which case the universe is indeed
expanding, as you say.
An alternative reason why the rear takes longer could be because it 
travels more slowly than the front, which of course it must do if the 
speed of light is slowing down, because the rear does the journey at
a later time than the front eh!

Have you ever considered the alternative, Mitchell ?

keith stein

keith stein

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#461218 — Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ?

Keith Stein wrote:
> 
> On 13/06/2018 20:06, mitchrae3323@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-7, Keith Stein wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> I rather think Einstein DEFINED the speed of light to be constant.
> >> One problem with that approach is that if the speed of light in
> >> intergalactic space is actually slowing down, then you are going
> >> to think the universe is expanding, when in fact it isn't.
> >>
> >> keith stein
> >
> > Hu? You are not entitled to your own facts.
> > The universe is expanding and light accelerates...
> >
> > Mitchell Raemsch
> >
> 
> What a red-shift really tells us Mitchell is that
> the rear of the wave takes longer to reach us than
> the front of the wave.
> Now this could feasible be because it has further to
> travel to us, in which case the universe is indeed
> expanding, as you say.
> An alternative reason why the rear takes longer could be because it
> travels more slowly than the front, which of course it must do if the
> speed of light is slowing down, because the rear does the journey at
> a later time than the front eh!
> 
> Have you ever considered the alternative, Mitchell ?
> 
> keith stein
> 
> keith stein

What a red-shift really tells us is a star simply is decaying...not anything to do with speed, but time.


Red is the first that shifts..then blue...then green.


The reason why all the other planets are surface color Red is because...decay.

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#461224 — Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ?

Dear The Starmaker:

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 9:55:15 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
...
> What a red-shift really tells us is a star simply is
> decaying...not anything to do with speed, but time.

Consider what you are saying.  The most red shifted stars (the entire spectrum shifts towards the red), were in the youngest Universe when the light left them.

> Red is the first that shifts..then blue...then
> green.

No, the entire spectrum shifts, UV into visible, visible into infrared, infrared into microwave, and so on.  IF the "z" is high enough.

> The reason why all the other planets are surface
> color Red is because...decay.

The Earth is roughly the same age as all the other planets, Neptune is blue, and much of the gas envelopes of the gas giants are younger than Earth.

David A. Smith

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#461231 — Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ?

dlzc wrote:

> Dear The Starmaker:
> 
> On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 9:55:15 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> ...
>> What a red-shift really tells us is a star simply is decaying...not
>> anything to do with speed, but time.
>> The reason why all the other planets are surface color Red is
>> because...decay.
> 
> The Earth is roughly the same age as all the other planets, Neptune is
> blue, and much of the gas envelopes of the gas giants are younger than
> Earth. David A. Smith

Actually a red star has to have a completely different spectrum, compared 
to a blue star. Moreover, you can't guarantee that a spectrum structure 
will preserves along large distances.

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#461234 — Re: Is it possible to MEASURE the speed of light,iN INTERGALACTIC SPACE ?

Dear Werner Ballard:

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:54:29 AM UTC-7, Werner Ballard wrote:
...
> Actually a red star has to have a completely different
> spectrum, compared to a blue star. Moreover, you can't
> guarantee that a spectrum structure will preserves along
> large distances.

But the red star as it ages, becomes a white dwarf.  Or novas.  And light that traveled from similar "red stars" for 1 billion years, or 10 billion years, is not inherently different AT THE SOURCE.  The older the light is, the younger the Universe is that that star was embedded in.

Stein is trying to claim that variable c is the cause of red shift, without addressing the energy lost / gained by said shift.  I was just trying to "edumacate Starmaker" about the particular claim he had made.  His claim was specific to equivalent stars in different epochs, and my answer was directed to that.

I made no claim that all stars were red.

David A. Smith

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#461299

On 14/06/2018 17:25, dlzc wrote:

> Stein is trying to claim that variable c is the cause of red shift, without addressing the energy lost / gained by said shift.  

There is no loss of energy when a light beam is stretched,
either by Doppler Shift, or by light slowing. The wavelength
is increased, resulting in reduction in power in the light,
but this is exactly compensated for because the duration
of the light beam lasts that much longer. e.g. if the red shift
equals 1, the wavelength has doubled, and the period has doubled,
and the duration has doubled, ;because the number of cycles
transmitted equals number received, (assuming you don't miss any).



keith stein

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#461463

Keith Stein wrote:

> On 14/06/2018 17:25, dlzc wrote:
> 
>> Stein is trying to claim that variable c is the cause of red shift,
>> without addressing the energy lost / gained by said shift.
> 
> There is no loss of energy when a light beam is stretched,
> either by Doppler Shift, or by light slowing. The wavelength is
> increased, resulting in reduction in power in the light,
> but this is exactly compensated for because the duration of the light
> beam lasts that much longer. e.g. if the red shift equals 1, the
> wavelength has doubled, and the period has doubled, and the duration has
> doubled, ;because the number of cycles transmitted equals number
> received, (assuming you don't miss any).

no.

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#461267

The ’nym-shifting troll wrote as "Werner Ballard" <db@ocowak.br>:

> dlzc wrote:
>> Dear The Starmaker:
>> On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 9:55:15 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
>> ...
>>> What a red-shift really tells us is a star simply is decaying...not
>>> anything to do with speed, but time.
>>> The reason why all the other planets are surface color Red is
>>> because...decay.

So, according to you, red Mars is "decaying".  What are yellow Venus and
blue Neptune doing, then?  And what do you dream of at night?

>> The Earth is roughly the same age as all the other planets, Neptune is
>> blue, and much of the gas envelopes of the gas giants are younger than
>> Earth.

Cite evidence (except for Neptune’s color).

> Actually a red star has to have a completely different spectrum, compared
> to a blue star.

That much is true, also because the elements that cause spectral absorption
lines are quite different in either star:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung-Russel_diagram>

It is a common misconception to think that astronomical redshift and
blueshift would actually mean a difference in hue that is visible with
the naked eye:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_Doppler_effect>

You can see there how fast the relative speed would have to be to see a
change that is visible with the naked eye compared to the stationary case.

Instead, it is the emission or absorption lines in the spectrum, specific to
certain elements (due to their electron configuration and the fact that for
a photon, E = ℎ f, where f determines the color), that are found (*a
little*) further towards the reddish or bluish part of the spectrum than in
a stationary laboratory:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift>

> Moreover, you can't guarantee that a spectrum structure
> will preserves along large distances.

Gibberish.  The light of a star that reaches us now is the light that
the star emitted when it was in that phase of its evolution.  We do see the
spectrum of a star change when it goes into the next phase, but *that* we
see this change has nothing to do with how far the star is away.  (How fast
we see it change does, due to time dilation in an expanding universe, but
only when the star is very far away.  And then it is not really a star, but
a supernova – a star that has just "died".  See below.)

That is also why we do not really have to measure the speed of light in
intergalactic space in order to validate the postulate (on which both
theories of relativity rest) that the (local) *vacuum* speed of light is
isotropic: *Only* in an *expanding* universe in which the vacuum speed of
light *is* isotropic, one can observe reduced light intensity (I ~ 1∕D²,
where D is proper distance), redshift, *and* corresponding time dilation
in ever more distant type-Ⅰa supernovae.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensity_(physics)>
<https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9602124>

Also, *only* in a universe whose expansion rate is *increasing*, one can
observe redshift that does not increase proportional to proper distance
(but more) in ever more distant (see light intensity) type-Ⅰa supernovae:

<https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2011/>

This *solidly* refutes all obsolete theories of “tired light”
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light>) that the OP, Keith Stein,
is, out of ignorance, still an adherent of.


PointedEars
-- 
Heisenberg is out for a drive when he's stopped by a traffic cop.
The officer asks him "Do you know how fast you were going?"
Heisenberg replies "No, but I know where I am."
(from: WolframAlpha)

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#461271

Dear Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 3:17:19 PM UTC-7, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
...
> > dlzc wrote:
...
> >> The Earth is roughly the same age as all
> >> the other planets, and much of the gas
> >> envelopes of the gas giants are younger
> >> than Earth.
> 
> Cite evidence (except for Neptune’s color).

I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, which is not evidence "of":
https://www.universetoday.com/33740/how-old-is-mercury/

As for the "age of the gas envelopes", since the gas giants are beyond the frost line, they will have been collecting gas from solar wind for 4+ billion years.  So the claim "much of" may be flapping in the breeze, unsupported.

David A. Smith

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#461275

dlzc wrote:
> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn: On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 3:17:19 PM
> UTC-7, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote: ...
>>> dlzc wrote:
> ...
>>>> The Earth is roughly the same age as all the other planets, and
>>>> much of the gas envelopes of the gas giants are younger than
>>>> Earth.
>> 
>> Cite evidence (except for Neptune’s color).
> 
> I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, which is not evidence
> "of": https://www.universetoday.com/33740/how-old-is-mercury/

Exactly.  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance>

> As for the "age of the gas envelopes", since the gas giants are beyond
> the frost line, they will have been collecting gas from solar wind for 4+
> billion years.

The solar wind is _not_ a stream of gas, but of *plasma* consisting of
charged particles (electrons, protons and nuclei).  All gas giants in the
Sol system have strong magnetospheres (cf. solar system probes), so nothing
electrically charged will enter their atmospheres in such a way as to build
them up (cf. aurora borealis/australis).

Also, radiation intensity decreases proportional to the square of the
distance from the source.  So even if the solar wind would be a stream of
gas and could enter the atmospheres of the gas giants, it would still not be
enough to build them up.  For example, Jupiter’s aphelion is about 5.5 AU,
thus it receives approximately only 1∕5.5² ≈ 1∕30 of the intensity of the
solar wind that is received (and deflected) by Terra(’s magnetosphere) (1
AU).  Saturn (≈ 10 AU) 1∕100 aso.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind>

Finally, to call the gas giants’ tens of thousands of kilometers deep
atmospheres ”gas envelopes” is a big understatement.  To date we do not even
know, for example, if Jupiter has a solid core for its atmosphere to "envelope".

> So the claim "much of" may be flapping in the breeze, unsupported.

I would consider it solidly refuted now.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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#461292

Dear Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 4:14:02 PM UTC-7, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> dlzc wrote:
...
> > I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, which is not evidence
> > "of": https://www.universetoday.com/33740/how-old-is-mercury/
> 
> Exactly.  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance>

So you don't have a position on the age of the planets one way or the other, you just don't want anyone else to have an opinion either?

> > As for the "age of the gas envelopes", since
> > the gas giants are beyond the frost line, they
> > will have been collecting gas from solar wind
> > for 4+ billion years.
> 
> The solar wind is _not_ a stream of gas, but of
> *plasma* consisting of charged particles
> (electrons, protons and nuclei).  All gas giants
> in the Sol system have strong magnetospheres
> (cf. solar system probes), so nothing
> electrically charged will enter their atmospheres
> in such a way as to build them up (cf. aurora
> borealis/australis).

So you feel that our magnetic field acts differently, actually concentrating solar wind at the poles, why?

https://www.space.com/38620-jupiter-southern-x-ray-auroras.html

https://www.space.com/26037-saturn-aurora-photos-hubble-telescope.html

http://theconversation.com/whats-it-like-to-see-auroras-on-other-planets-50341

They have arorae, but they are just magic light shows, and gases (as normalized when light is emitted) being formed from plasma there.  So all that remains is to establish how much came from solar wind, when the Sun loses 1 part on 10^14 of its mass now per year, maybe half due to solar wind losses directly, rather than light emission.

David A. Smith

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#461312

dlzc wrote:
> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> dlzc wrote:
>>> I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, which is not evidence 
>>> "of": https://www.universetoday.com/33740/how-old-is-mercury/
>> 
>> Exactly.  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance>
> 
> So you don't have a position on the age of the planets one way or the
> other,

I did not say that.

> you just don't want anyone else to have an opinion either?

  “Well, opinions are like assholes, your Honor. Everybody’s got one.”
    –Larry Flynt in “The People vs. Larry Flynt” (1996)

I prefer people to have *well-founded* opinions.

>>> As for the "age of the gas envelopes", since the gas giants are
>>> beyond the frost line, they will have been collecting gas from solar
>>> wind for 4+ billion years.
>> 
>> The solar wind is _not_ a stream of gas, but of *plasma* consisting of
>> charged particles (electrons, protons and nuclei).  All gas giants in
>> the Sol system have strong magnetospheres (cf. solar system probes), so
>> nothing electrically charged will enter their atmospheres in such a way
>> as to build them up (cf. aurora borealis/australis).
> 
> So you feel that our magnetic field acts differently, actually
> concentrating solar wind at the poles,

No.  How did you get that idea?

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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