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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #422201 > unrolled thread

The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained.

Started by"HGW, DSc." <HG@....>
First post2017-06-11 06:39 +1000
Last post2017-06-14 13:19 +1000
Articles 12 on this page of 72 — 14 participants

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Contents

  The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-11 06:39 +1000
    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-10 18:15 -0700
      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-11 19:26 +1000
        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 20:05 +1000
          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-11 20:34 +1000
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-11 11:38 +0000
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 10:19 +1000
                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Mikko <mikko.levanto@outlook.com> - 2017-06-14 13:14 +0300
                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-15 07:19 +1000
                    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-15 12:47 +1000
                      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-15 19:59 +1000
                        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-16 11:48 +1000
                          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 08:53 +1000
                          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 08:59 +1000
                            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-17 02:19 +0000
                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 15:05 +1000
                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-18 03:35 +0000
                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-19 08:13 +1000
                            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-17 12:34 +1000
                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 15:06 +1000
                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-17 17:02 +1000
                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-17 22:27 +1000
                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-17 09:49 -0500
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-11 21:38 +1000
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 10:14 +1000
                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-12 12:11 +1000
                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 20:14 +1000
                    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 13:05 +1000
                      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 13:16 +1000
                        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-14 12:07 +0200
                          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-15 07:14 +1000
                            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-15 11:57 +0200
                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-15 20:27 +1000
                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 12:06 -0700
                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2017-06-15 12:23 -0700
                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-17 08:52 +1000
                                    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-17 15:23 +1000
                                      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-17 22:40 +1000
                                        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-18 19:57 +1000
                                          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-19 08:10 +1000
                                            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-19 11:45 +1000
                                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-19 06:02 +0000
                                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-19 18:44 +1000
                                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2017-06-19 03:17 -0700
                                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-19 20:22 +1000
                                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-19 12:49 +0000
                                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-19 18:39 +1000
                                              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-19 22:46 -0500
                                                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-20 20:20 +1000
                                                  Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-06-20 11:20 +0000
                                                    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-21 08:48 +1000
                          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 15:03 -0700
                            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-15 08:58 +1000
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 03:54 +0000
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-12 20:17 +1000
      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Lolek Atoru <oitiruc@rwuca.oa> - 2017-06-13 20:58 +0000
    Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-12 09:20 -0500
      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Selina Dieter <uiueeits@wlwtwstd.ci> - 2017-06-12 14:29 +0000
        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-13 14:22 +1000
          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Nými Icelulózy <ejienm@wzsfwe.ul> - 2017-06-16 11:42 +0000
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-16 22:22 +1000
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Ecembre Abin <umueuu@eibbwaw.ee> - 2017-06-17 08:37 +0000
                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-06-17 19:37 +1000
        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-06-13 09:13 -0500
      Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW, DSc." <HG@....> - 2017-06-13 04:35 +1000
        Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-12 19:40 +0000
          Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-13 11:07 +1000
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-13 16:13 +0000
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 13:18 +1000
                Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2017-06-14 04:31 +0000
            Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-06-13 19:49 +0200
              Re: The BIG GPS Accuracy Breakthrough Explained. "HGW..." <hgw@....> - 2017-06-14 13:19 +1000

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#422711

FromSylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Date2017-06-16 22:22 +1000
Message-ID<eqi0rlFl2vqU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#422707
On 16/06/2017 9:42 PM, NÜmi Icelulózy wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>>> The answer is augmented GPS, that'a why. Amazing you are not aware of.
>>
>> Augmented GPS relies on signals from other GPS receivers whose location
>> has been determined accurately by other means.
>
> Popping into this discussion, from the other receivers?? This reveals you
> misunderstood the subject entirely. Not only this one, the GPS, but many
> others as well. Let me summarise, GPS is a _one way communication_, then
> no GPS data leaks out of the ones whatever brand GPS receiver.
>

Does it not occur to you that one can construct a device that transmits 
the data it gets from a GPS receiver, together with other relevant 
information, so that other devices, suitably equipped, can obtain that data?

Sylvia.

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#422781

FromEcembre Abin <umueuu@eibbwaw.ee>
Date2017-06-17 08:37 +0000
Message-ID<oi2pov$1k0e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#422711
Sylvia Else wrote:

>> Popping into this discussion, from the other receivers?? This reveals
>> you misunderstood the subject entirely. Not only this one, the GPS, but
>> many others as well. Let me summarise, GPS is a _one way
>> communication_, then no GPS data leaks out of the ones whatever brand
>> GPS receiver.
>
> Does it not occur to you that one can construct a device that transmits
> the data it gets from a GPS receiver, together with other relevant
> information, so that other devices, suitably equipped, can obtain that
> data? Sylvia.

That's not what you said, Dr. Silvia. Even as such, appears to me still 
unforgivable wrong. I would, suggest before making pompous statement, 
based on crap readings from Internet, to consult a specialist like myself.

"relies on signals from other GPS receivers"

GPS receivers relates closely to _GPS modules_ or _SoC Chips_, and NOT to 
devices. Devices can be any. Having particular brand Devices to send out 
their position data would Require and ARBITER to decide which of the 
receiver (now a sender) has the MOST correct location. The algorithm would 
be extremely COMPLEX and PRONE to errors.

In reality the Augmented GPS is based on KNOWN LOCATION of GSM towers/
masts, beacons, Radio stations, and likely also RSSI (built-in the RF 
chip). Local sensors may also be used (Gyro, Magnetic, Accl).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#422783

FromSylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Date2017-06-17 19:37 +1000
Message-ID<eqkbjaF6oi8U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#422781
On 17/06/2017 6:37 PM, Ecembre Abin wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>>> Popping into this discussion, from the other receivers?? This reveals
>>> you misunderstood the subject entirely. Not only this one, the GPS, but
>>> many others as well. Let me summarise, GPS is a _one way
>>> communication_, then no GPS data leaks out of the ones whatever brand
>>> GPS receiver.
>>
>> Does it not occur to you that one can construct a device that transmits
>> the data it gets from a GPS receiver, together with other relevant
>> information, so that other devices, suitably equipped, can obtain that
>> data? Sylvia.
>
> That's not what you said, Dr. Silvia. Even as such, appears to me still
> unforgivable wrong. I would, suggest before making pompous statement,
> based on crap readings from Internet, to consult a specialist like myself.
>
> "relies on signals from other GPS receivers"
>
> GPS receivers relates closely to _GPS modules_ or _SoC Chips_, and NOT to
> devices. Devices can be any. Having particular brand Devices to send out
> their position data would Require and ARBITER to decide which of the
> receiver (now a sender) has the MOST correct location. The algorithm would
> be extremely COMPLEX and PRONE to errors.
>
> In reality the Augmented GPS is based on KNOWN LOCATION of GSM towers/
> masts, beacons, Radio stations, and likely also RSSI (built-in the RF
> chip). Local sensors may also be used (Gyro, Magnetic, Accl).
>

<https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/waas/howitworks/>

Sylvia.

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#422452

FromTom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net>
Date2017-06-13 09:13 -0500
Message-ID<GpGdnWIRZJK-bqLEnZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#422359
On 6/12/17 6/12/17   9:29 AM, Selina Dieter wrote:
> Tom Roberts wrote:
> 
>> Sub-centimeter precision could always be obtained in several ways: a) by
>> averaging over several days, b) via differential GPS, or c) other
>> specialized configurations.
> 
> The answer is augmented GPS, that'a why. Amazing you are not aware of.

Thst's another name for differential GPS.

Tom Roberts

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#422390

From"HGW, DSc." <HG@....>
Date2017-06-13 04:35 +1000
Message-ID<ohmmqr$16a1$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#422356
On 13/06/17 00:20, Tom Roberts wrote:
> On 6/10/17 6/10/17 - 3:39 PM, HGW, DSc. wrote:
>> Have you ever wondered why the latest GPS receivers have become so
>> accurate?
>
> They haven't become significantly more accurate than they were a
> decade ago.

They certainly have. I now wear a GPS receiver on my wrist and get cm
accuracy. I couldn't do that ten years ago.
Maybe the makers woke up about ten years ago that light speed is
variable and developed the far superior wavelength count method.

> Sub-centimeter precision could always be obtained in several ways: a)
> by averaging over several days, b) via differential GPS, or c) other
> specialized configurations.
>
> For instance, GPS surveying equipment can obtain sub-millimeter
> accuracy BETWEEN UNITS. They do this by comparing carrier phases
> between units; their global accuracy remains several meters.

Well it is much easier now, using wavelength instead of light speed.

>> The reason is that the system no longer uses light speed in its
>> Nav calculations. It actually works by establishing the number of
>> wavelengths in the signal carrier wave to directly determine
>> satellite/receiver distance.
>
> This is just Wilson making stuff up and pretending it is true.
>
> If it were true, he would be able to point to the descriptions of
> the satellite signals that make it possible. He will be unable to do
> so, for the simple reason that the specs are freely available and it
> is EASY to see that they do not contain such information.

According to Wiki, the actual details are secret. If you think I am 
making that up you had better contact Wiki and argue with them

>> [...] further fantasies]

Tom, another dingleberry sacred cow has now been slaughtered. GPS signal 
speeds are known to vary too much for high accuracy. You cannot run away 
any longer, Einstein's theory and all its most impressive religious 
jargon and mathematics is obviously complete bullshit from start to finish.

>> I can't tell you exactly how it is done becasue it is top secret,
>> for obvious reasons.
>
> More smoke and nonsense. Almost all of the specifications of the GPS
> system and it signals are not classified. The exceptions are the
> military aspects.

Well you should inform Wiki of their mistake.

> Wilson fantasizes that the U.S. military would reveal "top secret"
> information to the dozens of CIVILIAN manufacturers of GPS
> receivers. That is HOPELESSLY naive. MILITARY receivers can be built
> by MILITARY contractors with appropriate clearances, and can use
> classified aspects -- THE RESULTING HARDWARE IS ALSO CLASSIFIED. So
> you will find such receivers in military vehicles, but not on
> Amazon.

Tom, you have been well and truly taken for a lifelong ride along the 
Einstein hoax trail. Accept it.

> From the specs we can see that the secret aspects of the GPS are
> cryptographic, intended so the U.S. military can deny use of GPS
> navigation to adversaries (and civilians), while preserving it for
> military forces allied with the U.S. In particular, this has NOTHING
> to do with navigation accuracy, just with access to the encrypted
> signals (during a war the unencrypted signals would be turned off in
> the region).
>
> Everything I have said is available in the open literature via
> Google. Rather than actually LEARNING something about the subject,
> Wilson prefers to make stuff up and pretend it is true. He leads a
> rich fantasy life unrelated to the real world. How sad.

Well go and whinge to Wiki and not me.

> Tom Roberts

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#422415

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2017-06-12 19:40 +0000
Message-ID<ohmqmi$q70$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#422390
"HGW, DSc." <HG@....> writes:

>On 13/06/17 00:20, Tom Roberts wrote:

>> This is just Wilson making stuff up and pretending it is true.
>>
>> If it were true, he would be able to point to the descriptions of
>> the satellite signals that make it possible. He will be unable to do
>> so, for the simple reason that the specs are freely available and it
>> is EASY to see that they do not contain such information.

>According to Wiki, the actual details are secret. If you think I am 
>making that up you had better contact Wiki and argue with them

>>> I can't tell you exactly how it is done becasue it is top secret,
>>> for obvious reasons.
>>
>> More smoke and nonsense. Almost all of the specifications of the GPS
>> system and it signals are not classified. The exceptions are the
>> military aspects.

>Well you should inform Wiki of their mistake.

Ralph, any fool can edit Wikipedia, and many fools do.
Ralph, maybe YOU edited Wikipedia and you are now using your edit as a
reference?  I haven't looked to see if you have.

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#422432

From"HGW..." <hgw@....>
Date2017-06-13 11:07 +1000
Message-ID<ohndrn$7ta$2@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#422415
On 13/06/17 05:40, Michael Moroney wrote:

> Henry, any fool can edit Wikipedia, and many fools do.
> Henry, maybe YOU edited Wikipedia and you are now using your edit as a
> reference?  

Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...


-- 

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#422459

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2017-06-13 16:13 +0000
Message-ID<ohp2us$ihr$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#422432
"HGW..." <hgw@....> writes:

>On 13/06/17 05:40, Michael Moroney wrote:

>> Ralph, any fool can edit Wikipedia, and many fools do.
>> Ralph, maybe YOU edited Wikipedia and you are now using your edit as a
>> reference?  

>Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...

Ralph, what a wiseguy...can't resist reading my responses...
So, Ralph, was it really you who edited Wikipedia to contaminate it
with your DirtyBaThWater?

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#422521

From"HGW..." <hgw@....>
Date2017-06-14 13:18 +1000
Message-ID<ohq9t9$v4l$4@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#422459
On 14/06/17 02:13, Michael Moroney wrote:
> "HGW..." <hgw@....> writes:

>> Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...
> 
> Henry, what a wiseguy...can't resist reading my responses...
> So, Ralph, was it really you who edited Wikipedia to contaminate it
> with your DirtyBaThWater?

I don't waste time reading them.

<plonk>


-- 

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#422532

Frommoroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date2017-06-14 04:31 +0000
Message-ID<ohqe6h$m3m$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to#422521
"HGW..." <hgw@....> writes:

>On 14/06/17 02:13, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> "HGW..." <hgw@....> writes:

>>> Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...
>> 
>> Ralph, what a wiseguy...can't resist reading my responses...
>> So, Ralph, was it really you who edited Wikipedia to contaminate it
>> with your DirtyBaThWater?

>I don't waste time reading them.

Obviously, you just did, Ralph.

><plonk>

Again?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

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#422467

From"Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no>
Date2017-06-13 19:49 +0200
Message-ID<ohp8j3$9bf$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#422432
Den 13.06.2017 03.07, skrev HGW...:
> On 13/06/17 05:40, Michael Moroney wrote:
> 
>> Henry, any fool can edit Wikipedia, and many fools do.
>> Henry, maybe YOU edited Wikipedia and you are now using your edit as a
>> reference? 
> 
> Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...

:-D --
Paul

https://paulba.no/

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#422522

From"HGW..." <hgw@....>
Date2017-06-14 13:19 +1000
Message-ID<ohqa0r$v4l$5@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#422467
On 14/06/17 03:49, Paul B. Andersen wrote:
> Den 13.06.2017 03.07, skrev HGW...:
>> On 13/06/17 05:40, Michael Moroney wrote:
>>
>>> Henry, any fool can edit Wikipedia, and many fools do.
>>> Henry, maybe YOU edited Wikipedia and you are now using your edit as a
>>> reference? 
>>
>> Maybe you have forgotten you have been plonked...
> 
> :-D --
> Paul

You shouldn't laugh. His dementia is pretty serious...

> https://paulba.no/


-- 

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