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Jesus rose from the dead

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  Jesus rose from the dead  The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-24 12:01 -0700
    Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-24 15:39 -0700
    Re: Jesus rose from the dead Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 00:57 +0000
      Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-24 18:14 -0700
        Re: Jesus rose from the dead "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-24 19:53 -0700
        Re: Jesus rose from the dead Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 16:52 +0000
          Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-25 22:17 -0700
            Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-29 23:41 -0700
              Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-29 23:58 -0700
              Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 08:34 -0700
            Re: Jesus rose from the dead Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-30 20:48 +0000
              Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-30 15:17 -0700
                Re: Jesus rose from the dead Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-10-01 00:10 +0000
      Re: Jesus rose from the dead The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-24 20:55 -0700
      Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 08:31 -0700
        Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-25 11:06 -0700
          Re: Jesus rose from the dead Wisely Non-Theist <aaa@bbb.ccc> - 2016-09-25 12:11 -0600
            Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-25 15:36 -0700
              Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 05:54 -0700
                Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-26 07:48 -0700
                  Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 09:33 -0700
                    Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-26 12:25 -0700
                      Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-27 05:49 -0700
          Re: Jesus rose from the dead mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-09-25 23:41 -0700
            Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-26 03:55 -0700
    Re: Jesus rose from the dead HGW <hw@....> - 2016-09-27 20:27 +1000
      Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-27 06:01 -0700
        Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-09-28 06:36 +1000
          Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 07:12 -0700
            Re: Jesus rose from the dead HGW <hw@....> - 2016-09-29 15:14 +1000
              Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 04:53 -0700
                Re: Jesus rose from the dead HGW <hw@....> - 2016-09-30 09:39 +1000
                  Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-29 19:53 -0700
                    Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-01 05:33 +1000
                      Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-30 13:21 -0700
                  Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 08:39 -0700
                    Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-01 06:03 +1000
                      Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 07:06 -0700
                        Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-02 09:50 +1100
                          Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 09:54 -0700
                            Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-03 10:17 +1100
                              Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 06:00 -0700
                                Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 07:42 -0700
                                  Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 09:30 -0700
                                  Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-08 21:34 +1100
                                    Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-08 15:00 -0700
                                      Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-09 09:32 +1100
                                        Re: Jesus rose from the dead Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-09 04:10 -0700
                                          Re: Jesus rose from the dead Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2016-10-14 08:00 -0700
                                Re: Jesus rose from the dead "HGWilson, DSc." <hgw@....> - 2016-10-04 07:32 +1100

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#393633 — Jesus rose from the dead

Jesus rose 
from the dead to
spread the word
to aliens on
other planets.

Jesus just goes on
constantly incarnating and 
dying on different aliens planets...

spreading the word of God
like a good Christian should.


Jesus is probably right now
walking on water on some
underground ocean on another planet.

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#393666

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> Jesus rose
> from the dead to
> spread the word
> to aliens on
> other planets.
> 
> Jesus just goes on
> constantly incarnating and
> dying on different aliens planets...
> 
> spreading the word of God
> like a good Christian should.
> 
> Jesus is probably right now
> walking on water on some
> underground ocean on another planet.


You know, it's possible
that an atheist manages to slip by
and enter Heaven...
but God is checking everybody out
and if God sees an atheist tryin 
to get in..God is going to tell him,

"WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE??"

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#393674

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:

> Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets.

That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.

<snip more nonsense>

-- 
Smiler, The godless one.
aa #2279
Gods are all tailored to order. They are made 
to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.

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#393676

Smiler wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets.
> 
> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.



Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't seem much)


Maybe this would help..


http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html


https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0


http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer

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#393683

"The Starmaker" <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message ...
> Smiler wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets.
>>
>> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
>> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
>
> Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't seem 
> much)
>
> Maybe this would help..
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html

Tough to argue with:
"Who was Jesus of Nazareth? What was he like? For more than 2,000 years,
people and groups of varying convictions have pondered these questions and
done their best to answer them. The significance of the subject is apparent.
From the late Roman Empire all the way to our own time, no continuously
existing institution or belief system has wielded as much influence as
Christianity, no figure as much as Jesus."

> https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer

But then, Arthur C. Clarke would not approve. 

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#393741

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:

> Smiler wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> 
>> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
>> > planets.
>> 
>> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
>> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> 
> Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> seem much)

My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything else 
that didn't exist.

> Maybe this would help..

<snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are 
evidence of any sort>

-- 
Smiler, The godless one.
aa #2279
Gods are all tailored to order. They are made 
to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.

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#393808

Smiler wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Smiler wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>
> >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
> >> > planets.
> >>
> >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> >
> > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> > seem much)
> 
> My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything else
> that didn't exist.
> 
> > Maybe this would help..
> 
> <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
> evidence of any sort>


What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help others, certaintly not You.



Maybe this would help..


http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html


https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0


http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer

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#394342

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> Smiler wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > > Smiler wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
> > >> > planets.
> > >>
> > >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> > >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> > >
> > > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> > > seem much)
> >
> > My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything else
> > that didn't exist.
> >
> > > Maybe this would help..
> >
> > <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
> > evidence of any sort>
> 
> What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help others, certaintly not You.
> 
> Maybe this would help..
> 
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html
> 
> https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0
> 
> http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+dawkins+jesus+christ

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#394344

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > Smiler wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > > Smiler wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
> > > >> > planets.
> > > >>
> > > >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> > > >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> > > > seem much)
> > >
> > > My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything else
> > > that didn't exist.
> > >
> > > > Maybe this would help..
> > >
> > > <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
> > > evidence of any sort>
> >
> > What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help others, certaintly not You.
> >
> > Maybe this would help..
> >
> > http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html
> >
> > https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0
> >
> > http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+dawkins+jesus+christ


http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html


Oh, btw, if you go to thepiratebay.org to learn more about Jesus Christ...don't forget The Magnificent Seven is just out.

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#394485

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 1:40:45 AM UTC-5, The Starmaker wrote:
> The Starmaker wrote:
> > 
> > Smiler wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > > Smiler wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
> > > >> > planets.
> > > >>
> > > >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> > > >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> > > > seem much)
> > >
> > > My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything else
> > > that didn't exist.
> > >
> > > > Maybe this would help..
> > >
> > > <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
> > > evidence of any sort>
> > 
> > What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help others, certaintly not You.
> > 
> > Maybe this would help..
> > 
> > http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html
> > 
> > https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0
> > 
> > http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+dawkins+jesus+christ

I also like Richard Dawkins quite a bit.  But I don't have any idea what point you were making that is supported by a google search that gave me 105,000 results.

Is it your point to say "This man, Jesus, really existed"?  

Is it because 2 John 1:7 would have you believe that anyone who says that Jesus didn't "come in the flesh" is the antichrist?  

Is being labeled antichrist by John a major concern to you?

If so, we should very carefully parse what John could possibly mean by "antichrist" and compare that to the word "antilabel" or "anti-false-labeling"

How does 2 John 1:7 define "liar"? 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20John%201%3A7&version=KJV;NIV

Do we even know for sure what John means by "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" or "Acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh,"

I would say it is more dishonest to pretend to know exactly what this lunatic, John, meant, or pretending to know for sure anything that happened 2000 years ago.  

It is also a lie to put a label on something that just means "Labeled".  

So your concerns about whether Jesus existed or not are mostly of merit to a Goofus named John, who lived and died 2000 years ago.  Today we should be concerned, I think, about the merit of his teachings, rather than "signs and wonders" that prove he actually existed.

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#394441

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 22:17:48 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:

> Smiler wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> 
>> > Smiler wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
>> >> > planets.
>> >>
>> >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
>> >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
>> >
>> > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
>> > seem much)
>> 
>> My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything
>> else that didn't exist.
>> 
>> > Maybe this would help..
>> 
>> <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
>> evidence of any sort>
> 
> What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help
> others, certaintly not You.

It won't help anyone sane.

-- 
Smiler, The godless one.
aa #2279
Gods are all tailored to order. They are made 
to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#394443

Smiler wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 22:17:48 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Smiler wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>
> >> > Smiler wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
> >> >> > planets.
> >> >>
> >> >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> >> >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> >> >
> >> > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it doesn't
> >> > seem much)
> >>
> >> My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything
> >> else that didn't exist.
> >>
> >> > Maybe this would help..
> >>
> >> <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
> >> evidence of any sort>
> >
> > What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help
> > others, certaintly not You.
> 
> It won't help anyone sane.


Do you know anyone...sane??? i bet you got a crazy mom! i like to meet
your crazy sister, is she hot?





>What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will help others, certaintly not You.



>Maybe this would help..


>http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/historical-jesus.html


>https://thepiratebay.org/search/ttc%20jesus/0/99/0


>http://www.thegreatcourses.com/category/science.html?CFM=footer

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#394450

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 15:17:55 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:

> Smiler wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 22:17:48 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> 
>> > Smiler wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:14:53 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Smiler wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other
>> >> >> > planets.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
>> >> >> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, I don't know the extent of your knowledge on Jesus..(it
>> >> > doesn't seem much)
>> >>
>> >> My knowledge on that subject is the same as my knowledge on anything
>> >> else that didn't exist.
>> >>
>> >> > Maybe this would help..
>> >>
>> >> <snip links to beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books, none of which are
>> >> evidence of any sort>
>> >
>> > What I meant by "Maybe this would help..", I meant..maybe it will
>> > help others, certaintly not You.
>> 
>> It won't help anyone sane.
> 
> Do you know anyone...sane???

Yep. Most of the atheists here are sane.
They don't believe in unevidenced super-beings, unlike you.

> i bet you got a crazy mom! i like to meet
> your crazy sister, is she hot?

You lose your bet.

-- 
Smiler, The godless one.
aa #2279
Gods are all tailored to order. They are made 
to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.

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#393686

John Locke wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 00:57:53 +0000 (UTC), Smiler <smiler@jo.king>
> wrote:
> 
> >On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> >> Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets.
> >
> >That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> >Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> >
> ..this troll is really bonkers. He's got his imaginary Jesus preaching
> to sinful microbes on alien planets. I don't think even Androol or
> Hemoriod have stretched the Jesus nonsense that far.


What are you tryin to say, aliens from other planets are all atheist??
There are certaintly not all atheist on Earth.

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#393735

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 7:58:02 PM UTC-5, Smiler wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:01:27 -0700, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets.
> 
> That would be the supposed Jesus for which you have no evidence.
> Beliefs, opinions and 'holy' books are NOT evidence.
> 

Has Starmaker made any reference to holy books?  If he did, then one might compare, for instance, the gospel according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, to that of John, and whether these writings constitute evidence to support an fruitful opinion or fruitless opinion.  

As for this premise "Jesus rose from the dead to spread the word to aliens on other planets."  sounds rather fruitless.  However, to acknowledge a possibility that some phenomenon may exist whereby life seems to defy the second law of thermodynamics, and create memory, organization, emotion...  

To me, the gospels present a puzzle which asks the question of whether morals come from identity, or if morals come from behavior.  

Matthew, Mark, Luke, James, all argue that righteousness is derived from good behavior.  In regards to the identity of "The King" “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:40)

Peter and Paul argue for both identity and behavior; Paul argues different ideas to different audiences, sometimes saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about" and other times saying "all knowledge and wisdom are embodied in Christ."  Peter argued that while salvation is guaranteed through belief, that the believers ought to behave well, anyway. John argues only for the identity of the christ--leaving out any clear advice or guidelines about proper behavior, encouraging followers of Jesus to be self-righteous jerks.  


The nature of obedience to a "lord" figure vs. belief in a "lord" figure is present in nature, whenever there is a domesticatible animal, such as a dog.  I would suspect that most, if not all cultures that will come to advanced technologies have some sort of guiding principles that are not unlike the moral teachings of Jesus, appearing in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

In a strong society, there may also be some elements of obedience to a great leader...  In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the great leader in embodiment of Jesus was obedient to his own guidelines.  In John's gospel, he was not.  So the puzzle of Christianity is whether the Messiah was a man, who should obey his own moral restrictions, and fulfill the Torah, or if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions, or the obedience of humans, or the testimony of humans, or the Law or the Prophets.

> <snip more nonsense>
> 
> -- 
> Smiler, The godless one.
> aa #2279
> Gods are all tailored to order. They are made 
> to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.

One of the definitions of "prejudice" is "discrimination" and one of the definitions of "discrimination" is "distinction"

I wonder what you would say of someone who made distinction between "good and evil", "truth and falsehood" "fact and fiction"  

Such a person would probably not persecute others for saying "There is no God" but does he have a responsibility to say to the would-be-followers of God--those who do not distinguish between truth and falsehood, fact and fiction...  Does it behoove them to proclaim "There is no God!" or should they ask the believers, "Is it really God whom you are following?"

When you say you are "Smiler, the godless one" do you simply deny all distinction between good and evil, or are you merely saying the God(s) most people call God is not God?

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#393746

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 9:31:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
>
> ....
> if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions,

What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code?

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#393747

In article <3c0951ed-36a4-4c59-b2bc-79d674f46a9f@googlegroups.com>,
 Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 9:31:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
> >
> > ....
> > if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions,
> 
> What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code?
 
What makes you believe any god has any "moral" code!

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#393787

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:11:47 PM UTC-6, Wisely Non-Theist wrote:
>
> In article <3c0951ed-36a4-4c59-b2bc-79d674f46a9f@googlegroups.com>,
>  Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 9:31:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
> > >
> > > ....
> > > if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions,
> > 
> > What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code?
>  
> What makes you believe any god has any "moral" code!

That's an interesting topic.  First, we'd have to decide what we mean
by "God."  After all, there is a wide range of opinion on that matter.
I'm willing to argue either John's "God is love" or Arthur C. Clarke's
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

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#393852

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 5:36:53 PM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:11:47 PM UTC-6, Wisely Non-Theist wrote:
> >
> > In article <3c0951ed-36a4-4c59-b2bc-79d674f46a9f@googlegroups.com>,
> >  Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 9:31:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ....
> > > > if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions,
> > > 
> > > What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code?
> >  
> > What makes you believe any god has any "moral" code!
> 
> That's an interesting topic.  First, we'd have to decide what we mean
> by "God."  After all, there is a wide range of opinion on that matter.
> I'm willing to argue either John's "God is love" or Arthur C. Clarke's
> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”


My only problem with the whole "God is Love" thing.... 1 John 4:8...  Is that John defines the GREATEST love in John 15:13... The greatest love is laying down your life for your friends.  

Now, to Jesus, whom God especially loves because he can do this over and over and over (John 10:17), this method of loving is unproblematic.  There's not any particular reason for Jesus to teach anyone how to do right, because they can kill him over and over again and he'll be just fine.

So what do you think... When you say "God is Love" do you mean in the sense of 1 Corinthians 13?  Paul describes a Love:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

But John-Gospel-Jesus describes love this way:

John 15:12-13
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." (John 10:17-18) The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

So when John says in 1 John 4:8 that God is Love, he is not referring to the love described by Paul, but to his own concept of Love--which is to die for other people.  

You can also get an idea of John's concept of Love, and Teaching, in John 13:10-17.  

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.  12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

This is the concept he has of teaching... He asks "Do you understand what I have done for you?"  Would it be honest to say "Yes"?  I don't think so.

My answer to that question is "Maybe...  It looks like you have insisted on washing our feet, when we asked you not to.  Then you criticized us for not wanting you to wash our feet.  Then either you were trying to say one of us stinks, or you prophesied a betrayal against you, leaving each and every one of us wondering if we were the one whom you were accusing.  In any case, you washed everyone's feet, who didn't need it, and the one whose whole body was unclean, you just washed his feet, leaving his whole body unclean.  So apparently you're telling us to ignore real problems, and just focus on some sort of obsessive compulsive behavior about proper feet-washing."

> What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code? 

Now, since Jesus can lay down his life and take it back up again, any time he wants, he does not have the same restrictions on making self-fulfilling prophesies of betrayal.  If love is dying for your friends, then it behooves you to ambiguously accuse them all of their future betrayal.  Because then they'll testify against you, and you'll have the opportunity to lay down your life for them, which is "Love" by John's definition.

You can see in John 13:34-38 the discussion of "Love one another"... What John is saying they're talking about here is laying their lives down for each other.  John is not keeping a record of a "patient, kind" love, but a "boastful, proud, self-seeking love" that dishonors others, and keeps a record of wrongs.  It does not show trust.  It does not show hope.  It does not protect, and it does not persevere.

Laying down your life might, on extremely rare occasion be one possible method of showing love--for instance, running into a burning building to save a child...  But this is not an act of seeking death for self... It is an act of forgetting self and seeking life for another.

So what do you think, then?  If John defines "God is Love" in 1 John 4:8, and John says "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.  Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends."  Isn't John also saying "God is Death"?

If John defines love in this way, we should recognize the whole of John's concept of God, and Love, rather than mix-and-matching Paul's understanding of what Love is, with John's.

Paul has very different concepts of what Love is.  I agree with 1 Corinthians 13, that "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

If I am to Love God with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strength, then I should expect that my love for God is the sort of love that Paul described here.  

I would say that God has some of these properties that Paul lists about God.  God is patient.  God does not envy, or boast.  God is not proud.  God doesn't dishonor.  God does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.  God always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  

I'm not exactly saying there is some entity out there in the universe that actually exists as a physical manifestation, who actually HAS these properties--rather I am saying that this is the entity we should seek, as our Lord, God, and Savior...  And the entity that Jesus spoke of when he pointed to his "Heavenly Father"  I am not trying to argue regarding "true facts" here, but to convey what represents "good opinion".

What I've left out...  God does keep a record of rights and wrongs...  It's called "the past".  God does not always protect.  We are largely left to our own devices when it comes to protecting ourselves from beasts and weather, and earthquakes and wrecks and asteroids and each other.  

Love, on the other hand does protect, and forgive.  I can forgive God for designing a universe with beasts and weather, and earthquakes, and asteroids.  I can even say "How can you record a wrong?" regarding those same beasts, and weather, and earthquakes, and asteroids.  This is part of the universe which created us.

So no, I don't think that God and Love are the same, as John claims in 1 John 4:8.  Nor do I think that Love and Seeking Death are the same as John claims in John 15:12-13.  Nor do I think that this Life-Hating, Death-Loving eternal cynicism that John preaches, teaches, and practices is "good"  (John 12:25)

So this is why I said John describes "Christ" as a God without a moral code.    Because he encourages this eternal cynicism...  God is Love... Love is Death.  Hate Life....  Keep for Eternity.... Wash your servants feet even when you know their whole body is filthy,  Rinse, Repeat.  

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#393875

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 6:54:20 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
>
> On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 5:36:53 PM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:
> >
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:11:47 PM UTC-6, Wisely Non-Theist wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3c0951ed-36a4-4c59-b2bc-79d674f46a9f@googlegroups.com>,
> > >  Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 9:31:48 AM UTC-6, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ....
> > > > > if Christ was a God who does not need moral restrictions,
> > > > 
> > > > What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code?
> > >  
> > > What makes you believe any god has any "moral" code!
> > 
> > That's an interesting topic.  First, we'd have to decide what we mean
> > by "God."  After all, there is a wide range of opinion on that matter.
> > I'm willing to argue either John's "God is love" or Arthur C. Clarke's
> > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
> 
> 
> My only problem with the whole "God is Love" thing.... 1 John 4:8...
> Is that John defines the GREATEST love in John 15:13... The greatest
> love is laying down your life for your friends.  
> 
> Now, to Jesus, whom God especially loves because he can do this over
> and over and over (John 10:17),

You are badly misinterpreting that scripture.  He's not talking about
reincarnation.

> this method of loving is unproblematic.  There's not any particular
> reason for Jesus to teach anyone how to do right, because they can
> kill him over and over again and he'll be just fine.

As I said, dying once and being resurrected once is not doing it "over
and over."

> So what do you think... When you say "God is Love" do you mean in the
> sense of 1 Corinthians 13?  Paul describes a Love:
> 
> 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast,
> it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,
> it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not
> delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects,
> always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
> 
> But John-Gospel-Jesus describes love this way:
> 
> John 15:12-13
> "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.  Greater love
> has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." (John
> 10:17-18) The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only
> to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own
> accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
> This command I received from my Father.”
> 
> So when John says in 1 John 4:8 that God is Love, he is not referring to
> the love described by Paul, but to his own concept of Love--which is to
> die for other people.  

Why can't they both be consistent?

> You can also get an idea of John's concept of Love, and Teaching, in John
> 13:10-17.  
> 
> [Sorry.  Too boring for me]
> 
> > What makes you believe God doesn't obey a moral code? 
> 
> Now, since Jesus can lay down his life and take it back up again, any
> time he wants,

This is YOUR assumption and is contrary to the record.  Did He ever die
again?  No, He did not.  Ergo, you have NO justification for your assertion.

> [Bo-o-o-oring]
> 
> Laying down your life might, on extremely rare occasion be one possible
> method of showing love--for instance, running into a burning building
> to save a child...  But this is not an act of seeking death for self...
> It is an act of forgetting self and seeking life for another.

Which is exactly what Jesus did.

> So what do you think, then?  If John defines "God is Love" in 1 John 4:8,
> and John says "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
> Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s
> friends."  Isn't John also saying "God is Death"?

Nope.  It's saying eternity is better than mortality.

> [Excessive wordage ignored]

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