Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #389108 > unrolled thread

Slow clock transport and the measurement of one way light speed.

Started by	Larry Harson <johnmcandrew66@gmail.com>
First post	2016-08-03 11:07 -0700
Last post	2016-08-14 13:05 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 97 — 18 participants

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#390328

From	Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-08-18 19:42 -0700
Message-ID	<8c1c14cb-66a4-4e73-b9fa-ad0e20d197c6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390276

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 11:09:14 AM UTC-6, The Starmaker wrote:
>
> Gary Harnagel wrote:
> > 
> > I suppose one could make a quantum clock out of biological material (i.e.,
> > complex molecules), but atoms of cesium, rubidium or aluminum are much
> > simpler and therefore easier to construct.
> 
> How about a Master Clock, you know...a master clock based on the whole
> universe time, a spacetime clock if you will? What would that be made
> of?? Would it be
> tiny or big...

What is it about nonsimultaneity that you don't understand?

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#390349

From	mlwozniak@wp.pl
Date	2016-08-18 23:33 -0700
Message-ID	<314eaf2f-fd1c-488e-8adb-2425c3a2c305@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390328

W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 04:43:00 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel napisał:
> On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 11:09:14 AM UTC-6, The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > Gary Harnagel wrote:
> > > 
> > > I suppose one could make a quantum clock out of biological material (i.e.,
> > > complex molecules), but atoms of cesium, rubidium or aluminum are much
> > > simpler and therefore easier to construct.
> > 
> > How about a Master Clock, you know...a master clock based on the whole
> > universe time, a spacetime clock if you will? What would that be made
> > of?? Would it be
> > tiny or big...
> 
> What is it about nonsimultaneity that you don't understand?

I will tell you, what you don't understand.
Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
of coordinates. Of these, quoting your 
fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
construction". Your imagined Essence of
the Universe has no business in it.

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#390353

From	Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-08-19 04:25 -0700
Message-ID	<7834bd6d-281d-47cf-8b3b-5f58546d1b0a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390349

On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 12:33:19 AM UTC-6, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
>
> W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 04:43:00 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel napisał:
> >
> > On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 11:09:14 AM UTC-6, The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > How about a Master Clock, you know...a master clock based on the whole
> > > universe time, a spacetime clock if you will? What would that be made
> > > of?? Would it be
> > > tiny or big...
> > 
> > What is it about nonsimultaneity that you don't understand?
> 
> I will tell you, what you don't understand.

That's impossible because you are a know-nothing, nihilistic troll.

> Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
> of coordinates. Of these, quoting your 
> fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
> construction". Your imagined Essence of
> the Universe has no business in it.

Gobble, gobble, gobble.

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#390354

From	mlwozniak@wp.pl
Date	2016-08-19 05:01 -0700
Message-ID	<3c1d0204-13c0-445a-a015-5ccee6c705d0@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390353

W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 13:25:12 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel napisał:
> On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 12:33:19 AM UTC-6, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> >
> > W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 04:43:00 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel napisał:
> > >
> > > On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 11:09:14 AM UTC-6, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How about a Master Clock, you know...a master clock based on the whole
> > > > universe time, a spacetime clock if you will? What would that be made
> > > > of?? Would it be
> > > > tiny or big...
> > > 
> > > What is it about nonsimultaneity that you don't understand?
> > 
> > I will tell you, what you don't understand.
> 
> That's impossible because you are a know-nothing, nihilistic troll.
> 
> > Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
> > of coordinates. Of these, quoting your 
> > fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
> > construction". Your imagined Essence of
> > the Universe has no business in it.
> 
> Gobble, gobble, gobble.

That's impossible of course, but as we can see
you understood nothing, as expected.

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#390374

From	paparios <paparios@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-19 06:51 -0700
Message-ID	<ba683e29-077f-441e-ad47-2cdaf97c07b9@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390354

On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 9:01:51 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 13:25:12 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel 
> > 
> > > Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
> > > of coordinates. Of these, quoting your 
> > > fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
> > > construction". Your imagined Essence of
> > > the Universe has no business in it.
> > 
> > Gobble, gobble, gobble.
> 
> That's impossible of course, but as we can see
> you understood nothing, as expected.

Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around the observer. No coordinates are needed. The same I can see the Moon at a certain position in the sky and with my hand indicate that position to my wife. Again, no coordinates are necessary.

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#390483

From	Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl>
Date	2016-08-21 12:03 +0200
Message-ID	<npbuah$nur$1@node2.news.atman.pl>
In reply to	#390374

Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:ba683e29-077f-441e-ad47-2cdaf97c07b9@googlegroups.com...

On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 9:01:51 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 13:25:12 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel
> >
> > > Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
> > > of coordinates. Of these, quoting your
> > > fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
> > > construction". Your imagined Essence of
> > > the Universe has no business in it.
> >
> > Gobble, gobble, gobble.
>
> That's impossible of course, but as we can see
> you understood nothing, as expected.

|Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the 
simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around 
the observer.

How?

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#390497

From	paparios <paparios@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-21 07:26 -0700
Message-ID	<ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390483

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 7:04:03 AM UTC-3, Maciej Woźniak wrote:
> Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> dyskusyjnych:ba683e29-077f-441e-ad47-2cdaf97c07b9@googlegroups.com...
> 
> On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 9:01:51 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> > W dniu piątek, 19 sierpnia 2016 13:25:12 UTC+2 użytkownik Gary Harnagel
> > >
> > > > Simultaneity, or lack of it, is the matter
> > > > of coordinates. Of these, quoting your
> > > > fellow idiot Tom, "human invented arbitrary
> > > > construction". Your imagined Essence of
> > > > the Universe has no business in it.
> > >
> > > Gobble, gobble, gobble.
> >
> > That's impossible of course, but as we can see
> > you understood nothing, as expected.
> 
> |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the 
> simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around 
> the observer.
> 
> How?

Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00 and then another ligth of a different lightning strike B at 12:00:03. Then at 12:00:10 I see two lights of two different lightning strikes C and D. For sure I can say that events A and B were not simultaneous and that events C and D were simultaneous.
No coordinates are needed (not even the clock is needed).

The same I can see the Moon at a certain position in the sky and with my hand indicate that position to my wife. Again, no coordinates are necessary.

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#390499

From	Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl>
Date	2016-08-21 18:43 +0200
Message-ID	<npcloq$g7v$1@node2.news.atman.pl>
In reply to	#390497


Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
nothing, as expected.
>
> |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> the observer.
>
> How?

|Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00

You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?

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#390504

From	paparios <paparios@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-21 11:44 -0700
Message-ID	<88bce108-442d-42e2-9bbf-b9c72e0b9ac4@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390499

El domingo, 21 de agosto de 2016, 13:44:11 (UTC-3), Maciej Woźniak  escribió:
> Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
> nothing, as expected.
> >
> > |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> > simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> > the observer.
> >
> > How?
> 
> |Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00
> 
> You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
> you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?

Is what a poor idiot like you need to understand what it is being explained. You do not need a clock for that.

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#390561

From	mlwozniak@wp.pl
Date	2016-08-21 23:27 -0700
Message-ID	<4c62e888-979c-4178-b43b-3932bc01de58@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390504

W dniu niedziela, 21 sierpnia 2016 20:44:56 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> El domingo, 21 de agosto de 2016, 13:44:11 (UTC-3), Maciej Woźniak  escribió:
> > Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> > dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
> > nothing, as expected.
> > >
> > > |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> > > simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> > > the observer.
> > >
> > > How?
> > 
> > |Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00
> > 
> > You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
> > you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?
> 
> Is what a poor idiot like you need to understand what it is being explained. You do not need a clock for that.

Don't you need a clock for seeing that strike was
12.00.00? Really?
It's as true, as the whole rest of your moronic
mumble.

BTW - this is simultanity. We label events with
numeric sequences like the above and they're 
simultaneous when they have the same label.
No fucken idiot-guru-discovered Essence of the
Universe has business here.

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#390571

From	paparios <paparios@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-22 06:18 -0700
Message-ID	<8840317b-f3b4-46a1-bd56-9769bc215913@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390561

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 3:27:45 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> W dniu niedziela, 21 sierpnia 2016 20:44:56 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> > El domingo, 21 de agosto de 2016, 13:44:11 (UTC-3), Maciej Woźniak  escribió:
> > > Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> > > dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
> > > nothing, as expected.
> > > >
> > > > |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> > > > simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> > > > the observer.
> > > >
> > > > How?
> > > 
> > > |Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00
> > > 
> > > You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
> > > you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?
> > 
> > Is what a poor idiot like you need to understand what it is being explained. You do not need a clock for that.
> 
> Don't you need a clock for seeing that strike was
> 12.00.00? Really?
> It's as true, as the whole rest of your moronic
> mumble.
> 

No completely awful troll, you do not need a clock. Even you with your gigantic ignorance should know that human know the concepts of before, after and simultaneous. Event A happened before event B and events C and D were simultaneous (or in your baby language, events C and D happened at the same instant of time). You do not need any coordinates for expressing that.

> BTW - this is simultanity. We label events with
> numeric sequences like the above and they're 
> simultaneous when they have the same label.
> No fucken idiot-guru-discovered Essence of the
> Universe has business here.

Wrong again ignorant troll, as all you need is that your senses (hearing, and sight, in this case, all of them really failing on you) do their job.

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#390574

From	mlwozniak@wp.pl
Date	2016-08-22 06:38 -0700
Message-ID	<2d911734-32e8-4409-8a68-96b7742cb3bc@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390571

W dniu poniedziałek, 22 sierpnia 2016 15:18:26 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 3:27:45 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> > W dniu niedziela, 21 sierpnia 2016 20:44:56 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> > > El domingo, 21 de agosto de 2016, 13:44:11 (UTC-3), Maciej Woźniak  escribió:
> > > > Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> > > > dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
> > > > nothing, as expected.
> > > > >
> > > > > |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> > > > > simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> > > > > the observer.
> > > > >
> > > > > How?
> > > > 
> > > > |Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00
> > > > 
> > > > You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
> > > > you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?
> > > 
> > > Is what a poor idiot like you need to understand what it is being explained. You do not need a clock for that.
> > 
> > Don't you need a clock for seeing that strike was
> > 12.00.00? Really?
> > It's as true, as the whole rest of your moronic
> > mumble.
> > 
> 
> No completely awful troll, you do not need a clock.

So where will you get this numbers you mentioned from?


> > BTW - this is simultanity. We label events with
> > numeric sequences like the above and they're 
> > simultaneous when they have the same label.
> > No fucken idiot-guru-discovered Essence of the
> > Universe has business here.
> 
> Wrong again ignorant troll, as all you need is that your senses (hearing, and sight, in this case, all of them really failing on you) do their job.

Wrong again ignorant troll. They can be sufficient in
very short ranges, but usually they are not. Generally
it's brain that is needed, but how could you know.

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#390706

From	John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-08-23 18:05 -0700
Message-ID	<80846f6b-c163-418c-8571-9be73a5ba0c3@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#390574

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 8:38:05 AM UTC-5, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> W dniu poniedziałek, 22 sierpnia 2016 15:18:26 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> > On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 3:27:45 AM UTC-3, mlwo...@wp.pl wrote:
> > > W dniu niedziela, 21 sierpnia 2016 20:44:56 UTC+2 użytkownik paparios napisał:
> > > > El domingo, 21 de agosto de 2016, 13:44:11 (UTC-3), Maciej Woźniak  escribió:
> > > > > Użytkownik "paparios"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
> > > > > dyskusyjnych:ad0c13f4-7b30-4815-8682-c53b62956bdd@googlegroups.com... tood 
> > > > > nothing, as expected.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > |Obviously, when observing a lightning storm, any person can "measure" the
> > > > > > simultaneity or not of different lightning strikes and its location around
> > > > > > the observer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How?
> > > > > 
> > > > > |Simple, I see the light of a ligthning  strike A at 12:00:00
> > > > > 
> > > > > You announced you can do it without coordinates. What do
> > > > > you think "12.00.00" is, poor idiot?
> > > > 
> > > > Is what a poor idiot like you need to understand what it is being explained. You do not need a clock for that.
> > > 
> > > Don't you need a clock for seeing that strike was
> > > 12.00.00? Really?
> > > It's as true, as the whole rest of your moronic
> > > mumble.
> > > 
> > 
> > No completely awful troll, you do not need a clock.
> 
> So where will you get this numbers you mentioned from?
> 
> 
> > > BTW - this is simultanity. We label events with
> > > numeric sequences like the above and they're 
> > > simultaneous when they have the same label.
> > > No fucken idiot-guru-discovered Essence of the
> > > Universe has business here.
> > 
> > Wrong again ignorant troll, as all you need is that your senses (hearing, and sight, in this case, all of them really failing on you) do their job.
> 
> Wrong again ignorant troll. They can be sufficient in
> very short ranges, but usually they are not. Generally
> it's brain that is needed, but how could you know.

The world we exist in now is short range/short range philosophy- and we are able to hone our clocks to 9 digits. This is true- it also sounds like an autistic child's philosophy.

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#390022

From	Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl>
Date	2016-08-15 13:59 +0200
Message-ID	<nosar6$sk7$1@node2.news.atman.pl>
In reply to	#389929

Użytkownik "Michael Moroney"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:nonlln$lor$2@pcls7.std.com...

kenseto <setoken@att.net> writes:

>On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 1:31:32 PM UTC-4, tjrob137 wrote:
>>
>> It has long been possible to take two commercial atomic clocks, 
>> synchronize them
>> together, put one in a car and drive around for a few hours (at constant
>> altitude), bring it back to the other, and SEE the difference they 
>> display.

>Right, but this does not mean time dilation. It means that the traveling
>clock second have a longer duration than the stay at home clock second.
>In other word, a clock second in different frame is not a universal
>interval of time.

No, this is a version of the traveling twin problem.  The clock in the
car is the traveling twin.  It will see less elapsed time than the
stationary clock.

>For example the GPS second is redefined to have 4.4647 more periods of
>Cs 133 radiation than the ground clock second. This is designed to make
>the passage of a redefined GPS second corresponds to the passage of a
>ground clock second.

|You have been told many times that this is wrong. Why do you keep
|repeating this mistake?

You  have been told many times that this is not wrong. Why do you keep
repeating this mistake?

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#389814

From	rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-11 19:22 -0700
Message-ID	<dcd63b4e-1a80-4f3c-9c56-7350adfad90a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#389755

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 8:52:55 PM UTC-4, HGW. wrote:

> Clocks synched together are absolutely synched. Move them apart any way 
> you like and they remain in absolute synch. 

Why do you lie so? You know darn well that there are *direct* experimental verification that show that when you bring a clock to "over there" and bring it back, it will NOT show the same value on the clock that remained.

You're not just stupid, you are a LIAR since you know what you say is untrue.

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#389866

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2016-08-12 12:52 -0700
Message-ID	<57AE2906.F28@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to	#389814

rotchm wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 8:52:55 PM UTC-4, HGW. wrote:
> 
> > Clocks synched together are absolutely synched. Move them apart any way
> > you like and they remain in absolute synch.
> 
> Why do you lie so? You know darn well that there are *direct* experimental 
> verification that show that when you bring a clock to "over there" and bring it back, 
> it will NOT show the same value on the clock that remained.
> 


Okay, I understand it does not show the same values...


but what are the values, what are the numbers...


if the values are not the same, ...


when did the change occur?

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#389868

From	Virgil <VIRGIL@VIRGIL.com>
Date	2016-08-12 13:56 -0600
Message-ID	<VIRGIL-E38C31.13561512082016@news.giganews.com>
In reply to	#389866

In article <57AE2906.F28@ix.netcom.com>,
 The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> rotchm wrote:
> > 
> > On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 8:52:55 PM UTC-4, HGW. wrote:
> > 
> > > Clocks synched together are absolutely synched. Move them apart any way
> > > you like and they remain in absolute synch.
> > 
> > Why do you lie so? You know darn well that there are *direct* experimental 
> > verification that show that when you bring a clock to "over there" and 
> > bring it back, 
> > it will NOT show the same value on the clock that remained.
> > 
> 
> 
> Okay, I understand it does not show the same values...
> 
> 
> but what are the values, what are the numbers...
> 
> 
> if the values are not the same, ...
> 
> 
> when did the change occur?

Unless there is a universal time, which there isn't, 
"when" has no single answer.
-- 
Virgil
"Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)

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#389875

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2016-08-12 13:37 -0700
Message-ID	<57AE3398.A96@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to	#389868

Virgil wrote:
> 
> In article <57AE2906.F28@ix.netcom.com>,
>  The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> > rotchm wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 8:52:55 PM UTC-4, HGW. wrote:
> > >
> > > > Clocks synched together are absolutely synched. Move them apart any way
> > > > you like and they remain in absolute synch.
> > >
> > > Why do you lie so? You know darn well that there are *direct* experimental
> > > verification that show that when you bring a clock to "over there" and
> > > bring it back,
> > > it will NOT show the same value on the clock that remained.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Okay, I understand it does not show the same values...
> >
> >
> > but what are the values, what are the numbers...
> >
> >
> > if the values are not the same, ...
> >
> >
> > when did the change occur?
> 
> Unless there is a universal time, which there isn't,
> "when" has no single answer.
> --
> Virgil
> "Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens." (Schiller)


I don't get it..
what is the point of
having an 
atomic clock if
you don't know what time it is?

Did anybody check the clock to see when it happen???

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#389876

From	Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl>
Date	2016-08-12 22:39 +0200
Message-ID	<nolc66$rgp$1@node1.news.atman.pl>
In reply to	#389868


Użytkownik "Virgil"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:VIRGIL-E38C31.13561512082016@news.giganews.com...

|Unless there is a universal time, which there isn't,
|"when" has no single answer.

Unless morons get wiser, no question has any answer.

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#389880

From	rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com>
Date	2016-08-12 14:11 -0700
Message-ID	<54c1684a-6837-4903-9f68-178b04dda5eb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#389866

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-4, The Starmaker wrote:

> Okay, I understand it does not show the same values...
> 
> but what are the values, what are the numbers...

Found by correctly applying t'=(t-xv/c^2)g


> if the values are not the same, ...when did the change occur?

They had different values when you noticed the difference (as soon as you compared them).

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csiph-web

Slow clock transport and the measurement of one way light speed.

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