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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #364403 > unrolled thread

The Fourth Dimension

Started byThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
First post2015-09-17 12:04 -0700
Last post2015-09-18 02:33 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 35 — 11 participants

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  The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 12:04 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension gilber34 <invalid@invalid.com> - 2015-09-17 14:07 -0500
    Re: The Fourth Dimension Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:55 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 13:31 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 15:58 -0500
      Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 14:40 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 01:05 -0400
          Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 22:42 -0700
          Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 23:01 -0700
            Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:40 +0200
              Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 23:59 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 10:28 +0200
                  Re: The Fourth Dimension mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-09-18 01:51 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:23 -0500
                  Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 15:41 +0200
                  Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-18 10:56 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:20 -0500
      Re: The Fourth Dimension mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-09-17 23:28 -0700
    The Fourth Dimension fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-17 14:49 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 15:46 -0700
      Re: The Fourth Dimension JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 15:48 -0700
        Re: The Fourth Dimension kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-17 20:14 -0400
          Re: The Fourth Dimension JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 19:50 -0700
            Re: The Fourth Dimension The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-17 22:37 -0700
              Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:22 +0200
              Re: The Fourth Dimension JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 12:01 -0700
            Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:00 +0200
              Re: The Fourth Dimension kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-18 03:00 -0400
                Re: The Fourth Dimension mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-09-18 01:09 -0700
                Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 10:33 +0200
        Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 07:56 +0200
      Re: The Fourth Dimension mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-09-17 23:30 -0700
    Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:20 +0200
      Re: The Fourth Dimension Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 11:19 +0200
        Re: The Fourth Dimension mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2015-09-18 02:33 -0700

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#364403 — The Fourth Dimension

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 12:04 -0700
SubjectThe Fourth Dimension
Message-ID<55FB0EB5.2316@ix.netcom.com>
Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?

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#364405

Fromgilber34 <invalid@invalid.com>
Date2015-09-17 14:07 -0500
Message-ID<mtf32k$u6j$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#364403
On 9/17/2015 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>

Al Gore.

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#364412

FromKoobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-17 12:55 -0700
Message-ID<d0c3e4db-2ef3-415d-8ac5-785e5d9b9ab5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#364403
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:04:28 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:

> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells

In

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine

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#364414

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 13:31 -0700
Message-ID<55FB230C.60AE@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364412
Koobee Wublee wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:04:28 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells
> 
> In
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine



Are you saying that Albert Einstein got his relativity Time and Fourth Dimension idea from reading a ...science fiction book????

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#364417

FromSam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-17 15:58 -0500
Message-ID<I_ydnQojWpfotGbInZ2dnUU7-a-dnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#364403
On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>

   Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
   experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
   dimension fit the observations.



-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#364418

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 14:40 -0700
Message-ID<55FB3351.546B@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364417
Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >
> 
>    Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
>    experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
>    dimension fit the observations.
> 


Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
spacial and one temporal
dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.


Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..

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#364432

Frombenj <nobody@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 01:05 -0400
Message-ID<bYMKx.29498$7S1.14732@fx30.iad>
In reply to#364418
On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sam Wormley wrote:
>>
>> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
>>>
>>
>>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
>>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
>>     dimension fit the observations.
>>
>
>
> Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> spacial and one temporal
> dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
>
>
> Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..

It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!

Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.



-- 
         ___           ___           ___            ___
        /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
       /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
      /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
     /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
    /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
    \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
     \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
      \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
       \_:/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
                      \/__/         \/__/

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#364438

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 22:42 -0700
Message-ID<55FBA456.3D12@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364432
benj wrote:
> 
> On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> >>
> >> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >>>
> >>
> >>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
> >>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
> >>     dimension fit the observations.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> > spacial and one temporal
> > dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
> >
> >
> > Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> > the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..
> 
> It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!
> 
> Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.


Haven't you heard, i don't read 'science fiction' books...

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#364441

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 23:01 -0700
Message-ID<55FBA8C1.6A94@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364432
benj wrote:
> 
> On 09/17/2015 05:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> >>
> >> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >>>
> >>
> >>     Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
> >>     experiment discovering how she works. Three spacial and one temporal
> >>     dimension fit the observations.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> > spacial and one temporal
> > dimension fit *any* observations or experiments.
> >
> >
> > Are you gettin your info from...a science fiction story? I didn't read
> > the book The Time Machine. I saw it on teevee..
> 
> It's true "Starmaker". A rotating umbrella can make you travel time!
> 
> Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here and discuss dimensions.


It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.


Go read the book "flatland" and then come back here ...

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#364451

FromPoutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 08:40 +0200
Message-ID<mtgbi7$h1l$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#364441
Dne 18/09/2015 v 08:01 The Starmaker napsal(a):

> 
> It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.
> 
Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
where are they used ?

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes great men humble, but small men arrogant.

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#364452

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-17 23:59 -0700
Message-ID<55FBB641.76D@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364451
Poutnik wrote:
> 
> Dne 18/09/2015 v 08:01 The Starmaker napsal(a):
> 
> >
> > It's about only three dimensions, not a fourth and Time.
> >
> Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
> where are they used ?
> 


I asked the question: Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that Time is in it?


The reason why I asked is because timeline wise, the earliest mentioned was H.G. Wells in his
science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895. The, next in the timeline is Albert Einstein relativity ten lears later 1905.



Now, I'm wondering timeline wise, who was before H.G. Wells? Or, is it a fact this whole 
"4 dimensions and time" the foundation is just ...science fiction.


In other words, 4 dimensions and time is not Science, it's science fiction.


Unelss of course you can come up with '4 dimensions and time' before H.G. Wells. 

Who invented 4 dimensions and time?


I'll repeat the original question: "Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?" 


Was it H.G Wells, or was it somebody before him?

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#364459

FromPoutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 10:28 +0200
Message-ID<mtghs6$5v5$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#364452
On 09/18/2015 08:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Poutnik wrote:
>>
>>>
>> Where did you come to 4 dimensions and time ?
>> where are they used ?
> 
> I asked the question: Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that Time is in it?

what exactly do you mean by "fourth dimension and that Time is in it"


> 
> In other words, 4 dimensions and time is not Science, it's science fiction.

I agree, it's science fiction that neither SR nor GR uses.
SR/GR uses 4 dimensions, when the fourth dimension is time,
recalculated to path length of the light in vacuum.

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes a great man humble, but a small man arrogant.

Eventual Wikipedia articles are provided with intention
of a convenient reference, not as an evidence, argument,
and usually not as a primary source of my knowledge.

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#364462

Frommlwozniak@wp.pl
Date2015-09-18 01:51 -0700
Message-ID<4e30e8bc-367b-4824-8ca6-20b36d8f1823@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#364459
On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 10:28:43 AM UTC+2, Poutnik wrote:

> SR/GR uses 4 dimensions, when the fourth dimension is time,

SR shit does. GR shit doesn't use any dimension, just yell,
that they are mere, unsignificant, human created labels.
Ask your fellow idiot Jan about it.

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#364473

FromSam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 08:23 -0500
Message-ID<_7WdnV7U8PiqjWHInZ2dnUU7-QMAAAAA@giganews.com>
In reply to#364452
On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.

   Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
   read science fiction books.

   Which is it, do you or don't you?


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#364476

FromPoutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 15:41 +0200
Message-ID<mth46p$9lc$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#364473
On 09/18/2015 03:23 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.
> 
>    Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
>    read science fiction books.
> 
>    Which is it, do you or don't you?
> 
Perhaps he does not, but he did. :-)

-- 
Poutnik ( the Czech word for a wanderer )

Knowledge makes a great man humble, but a small man arrogant.

Eventual Wikipedia articles are provided with intention
of a convenient reference, not as an evidence, argument,
and usually not as a primary source of my knowledge.

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#364489

FromThe Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Date2015-09-18 10:56 -0700
Message-ID<55FC504A.33EB@ix.netcom.com>
In reply to#364473
Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> On 9/18/15 1:59 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Wells in his science fiction book The Time Machine, 1895.
> 
>    Just hold on a minute -- you said in an earlier posting that you don't
>    read science fiction books.
> 
>    Which is it, do you or don't you?


I don't read sceince fiction books or any fiction books for that matter.

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#364472

FromSam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-18 08:20 -0500
Message-ID<_7WdnV_U8PgBkmHInZ2dnUU7-QOdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#364418
On 9/17/15 4:40 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sorry, I'm not aware of any "observation and experiment" of  Three
> spacial and one temporal dimension fit*any*  observations or
> experiments.



   I so sorry, I should have pointed out that GPS receivers measure and
   spit out values for three spacial and one temporal dimension.


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#364448

Frommlwozniak@wp.pl
Date2015-09-17 23:28 -0700
Message-ID<b39ffd58-065e-49f7-93af-e5cfc176edc7@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#364417
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 10:58:31 PM UTC+2, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 9/17/15 2:04 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?
> >
> 
>    Nature is the way she is, and we humans are, through observation and
>    experiment discovering how she works. 

Nature is the way she is. It doesn't work and never did.
And science is an application constructed for human brain 
to work.

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#364419

Fromfuller.david@hotmail.com
Date2015-09-17 14:49 -0700
Message-ID<62d1354c-9c11-4754-9bf8-d41d9560a794@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#364403
Yes there is only two dimensions. 
Space 
& 
Time

 http://www.msri.org/publications/sgp/jim/geom/level/library/triper2/imag/P.jpg

Truncated Octahedron Tessellation of Space causes Admittance of time

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#364421

FromJanPB <filmart@gmail.com>
Date2015-09-17 15:46 -0700
Message-ID<c6056368-409c-4bb5-b58d-cf926ead1d5f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#364403
On Thursday, September 17, 2015 at 12:04:28 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> Who invented this thing called the fourth dimension and that time is in it?

A good mathematical description I'd say 19th century (Hamilton, Riemann,
a bit later the Italian school, etc.) Earlier attempts by Gauss. The idea
was implicitly present in Descartes' analytical geometry (I don't know if
he called it out explicitly).

In analytical(*) mechanics time can be frequently treated as an extra
coordinate. In some contexts time coordinate is treated simply as space
(since the mathematical formulas involved don't see any difference), for
example in lens design the optical aberrations are most economically(**)
studied by using Hamiltonian mechanics with the optical axis playing the
role of the time axis.

In that context Einstein's consideration of time as one of the available
degrees of freedom (dimensions) was nothing new. What was new was describing
its _geometry_ in terms of _energy-momentum_. Other spaces involving
time coordinate like the extended phase space of Hamilton were not
about their geometry so much but focused more on other properties: volumes,
characteristics, and so on.

H. G. Wells was the first novelist of note to use the concept.

(*) "analytical mechanics" means "the mechanics of Lagrange and Hamilton"
everywhere in the world except in American textbooks it seems. Other
uniquely American weirdities [sic] are: "Lorentz gauge" instead of the
correct "Lorenz gauge" and "arctanh" (etc.) instead of the correct
"artanh" (etc.). And of course using feet in aviation just drives me nuts.

(**) still a lot of work. But just _try_ to calculate aberrations using
plain Snell's law! It's a calculational hyper-nightmare.

--
Jan

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