Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #430648 > unrolled thread
| Started by | gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-09-01 03:25 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-09-07 07:32 -0700 |
| Articles | 6 on this page of 86 — 15 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.physics.relativity
Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-01 03:25 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2017-09-01 13:23 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-09-01 14:15 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-01 06:09 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-01 06:20 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-01 07:05 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-09-01 12:40 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-09-02 12:19 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-01 19:37 +0000
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-02 03:26 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:34 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) xxein1x1@gmail.com - 2017-09-02 22:48 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 10:18 +0200
Energy (was: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth)) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 15:52 +0200
Re: Energy (was: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth)) Ethel Ocallaghan <unlgclo@awlwaac.ag> - 2017-09-03 13:56 +0000
The problem of crackpots (was: Energy) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-03 17:32 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 18:43 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 18:55 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-03 19:03 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 08:22 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-04 23:32 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 04:11 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-09-05 05:06 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-05 05:17 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-09-05 05:26 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Istrátora Metiku <untw@nwpovu.un> - 2017-09-06 12:42 +0000
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:11 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:33 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 00:33 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:48 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Istrátora Metiku <untw@nwpovu.un> - 2017-09-06 13:03 +0000
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:46 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 13:04 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 05:05 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 05:25 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 02:10 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:40 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 13:15 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-07 05:42 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:56 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:58 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 07:57 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-04 23:19 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:38 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-05 04:52 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:08 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:58 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:22 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:03 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 08:26 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 04:12 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-04 06:42 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 05:35 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-04 21:49 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-04 19:35 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 07:41 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 03:53 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-05 14:15 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:17 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 12:44 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 05:19 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 15:34 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 08:53 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 18:02 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 21:02 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 11:31 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Erika Milling <kak@kiilwgil.lc> - 2017-09-07 15:46 +0000
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 21:44 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 16:01 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 07:11 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 08:57 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 09:01 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 02:25 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:49 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 11:42 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-07 01:23 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-07 02:01 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 12:56 -0500
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-09-06 12:44 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-06 20:36 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-07 12:04 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-09-07 12:14 +0000
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2017-09-06 20:12 +0200
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) bigal95210@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 15:48 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com - 2017-09-05 22:49 -0700
Re: Interstellar Travel and time taken for the trip. (No time dilation for the Earth) "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-09-07 07:32 -0700
Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]
| From | Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-07 12:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <2045122.1UYkAi07OO@PointedEars.de> |
| In reply to | #431420 |
gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 11:26:53 PM UTC+5:30, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> First of all, the observation is not "based on a calculation". It is a >> direct measure of angular displacement by watching the azimuth and >> zenith angles of a star change. The angular displacement is a direct >> measurement of the bend. There is absolutely zero dependence on any >> theory for the bend MEASUREMENT. > > Agree, it was a measurement and more accurate measurements made during > solar eclipses that confirmed the theory. No, it was just one of the observations: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Classical_tests> >> Secondly, if Einstein had not found his error, somebody else would have. >> Einstein is not solely responsible for all results in relativity -- far >> from it. When an idea starts to show some interesting merit, then >> scientist from all over start to work on the same thing, improving and >> correcting where necessary. > > If somebody else found the error, they would be famous, not Einstein. You have no idea what you are talking about. > It is hard to predict what path science could have taken if its course was > affected by random events. It is not, and it was not. -- PointedEars Twitter: @PointedEars2 Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-07 12:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oord6o$191b$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #431420 |
<gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 11:26:53 PM UTC+5:30, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> >> First of all, the observation is not "based on a calculation". It is a >> direct measure of angular displacement by watching the azimuth and >> zenith angles of a star change. The angular displacement is a direct >> measurement of the bend. There is absolutely zero dependence on any >> theory for the bend MEASUREMENT. > > Agree, it was a measurement and more accurate measurements made during > solar eclipses that confirmed the theory. > >> >> Secondly, if Einstein had not found his error, somebody else would have. >> Einstein is not solely responsible for all results in relativity -- far >> from it. When an idea starts to show some interesting merit, then >> scientist from all over start to work on the same thing, improving and >> correcting where necessary. >> >>> > > If somebody else found the error, they would be famous, not Einstein. Oddly enough this is not so. The originator often gets credit even if mistakes get made. > It is hard to predict what path science could have taken if its course > was affected by random events. > > > -- Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-06 20:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <4086702.Rb8q5NZCej@PointedEars.de> |
| In reply to | #431354 |
gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 7:31:29 PM UTC+5:30, Thomas
> 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> That might be considered cruel by those affected, but is actually good
>> so. Science works by falsification: relentlessly weeding out
>> *inconsistent* ideas and *demonstrably* false models about the world.
>
> You do realize that if Einstein had not had the time to correct his error
> in predicting the bending of starlight around the sun, if the observation
> had been done earlier, based on the wrong calculation, Einstein would have
> been labeled as a failure and maybe a crackpot?
First of all, to which “wrong calculation” are you referring? (Einstein
made several statements that he corrected in later papers, as evidenced by
the number of occurrences of “Corrections” in
<http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/> p.)
> Also, the experiment which made world headlines and made Einstein famous
Famous in the general public’s perception due to the “world headlines”.
He had the support of the scientific community long before that *because
what he said made sense to begin with*.
That is also evidenced by his membership in the Prussian Academy of Sciences
since 1913, *2 years before* he presented general relativity to that body;
you just would not get invited into those circles if they would not take you
and your work seriously. His papers had been selected for publication in
the journal of the Academy („Sitzungsberichte“) since 1905 already.
<http://bibliothek.bbaw.de/kataloge/literaturnachweise/einstein/literatur.pdf>
[The National Geographic Channel series “Genius” tells the story that
Max von Laue traveled, at the behest of Max Planck, from Berlin to
Berne in 1906 to visit Einstein in the Swiss Patent Office to offer him
Planck’s support (whose 1900 idea of quanta Einstein had used in 1905
to explain the photoelectric effect – the work for which he was awarded
explicitly the Nobel Prize in Physics 1921). Von Laue is shown not
only surprised to find a young man instead of a seasoned fellow, but
is also presented, to his amazement, by Einstein with yet another
revolutionary discovery that Einstein has made in the meantime: his
“afterthought” to SR that “light carries mass”, now known to the
general public as “E = m c²”.
<http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/genius/videos/genius-recap-chapter-four/>
At least the town and the time of meeting appears to be historically
accurate, as corroborated by von Laue’s official biography at the
German Historical Museum, Berlin: they did meet in 1906, Einstein (then
only 27 years old) did live and work in Berne at the time, and von Laue
was Planck’s assistent from 1905 to 1909:
<https://www.dhm.de/lemo/biografie/max-laue>
(However, Einstein’s original notes must have looked different than
depicted. For example, Einstein used „V“ for the speed of light
before “On the Relativity Principle and the Conclusions Drawn from
It”, 1907, and he did not write that equation – not even using V –
in the 1905 paper as published [but he used words only].
<http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol2-doc/347>
<http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol2-doc/468>)]
> were based on observations that at best were 30% correct?
Cite evidence.
Regardless of possible problems in Eddington’s analysis of the data (this
claim has been debunked by Kennefick 2007, 2009), the observation was
repeated later with increasing precision:
· Lick Observatory, 1922, ibid.;
· van Biesboeck (Yerkes Observatory), 1953;
· Texas Mauritanian Eclipse Team (University of Texas), 1973;
· Titov & Girdiuk (Pulkovo Observatory, St. Petersburg, Russia), 2015;
· Sahu et al. (STSI/HST) 2017 (gravitational microlensing by distant
stars).
*All* of them confirmed general relativity. *Numerous* *other* experiments
have confirmed it now; most recently, now *three* confirmed observations of
gravitational waves (LIGO Scientific Collaboration 2016, 2017).
[You would have known that if you had done proper research *before* you
made the claim; that’s one more unofficial point for you on the
Crackpot Index. With a starting credit of −5, that’s 6 points for you
in total. Congratulations.]
In fact, I am curious about the results of the observations performed in
that regard during the most recent total solar eclipse (Bruns 2017):
<https://eclipse2017.nasa.gov/testing-general-relativity>
--
PointedEars
Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | bigal95210@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-05 15:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0999a280-bc4c-4d54-ab7d-525476f92210@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #430648 |
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 3:25:36 AM UTC-7, gehan.am...@gmail.com wrote: > In this recent talk on interstellar travel, Ryan Weed talks about interstellar travel using anti-matter propulsion. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBebWBjpWIQ > > http://www.wired.co.uk/article/ryan-weed-wired-2015 > > Curiously, he ends with the suggestion that long distance travel would not be so attractive because the traveler will be returning to an Earth that exists far in the future. > > But this cannot be. Imagine a ray of light or a beam of light sent to the moon and back, to a reflector on the moon. The time taken from the sending of the beam to its return will be around 1.3 seconds each way. > > Extend this to light sent to a planet 10 light years away, and it takes 10 years for the outbound trip and 10 years for the return trip, as measured by 'clocks and trees on Earth'. > > Any spacecraft, probe, robot, anything that goes out to that planet at the speed of light and comes back will be back in 20 years time. If not travelling at the speed of light, it will go out and return in a specific time frame, for example at half the speed of light it will take double the time. > > Now where is the time dilation in that? If you're travelling instantaneously at the speed of light, you will be spread like peanut butter on the floor of the ship after going through an infinite acceleration rate.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-05 22:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <29337327-98e3-4b67-9042-714c1a126ca3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #431261 |
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:18:13 AM UTC+5:30, bigal...@gmail.com wrote: > If you're travelling instantaneously at the speed of light, you will be spread like peanut butter on the floor of the ship after going through an infinite acceleration rate. I get the same feeling when arguing with 'reativists' :)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-09-07 07:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <08e31b4e-b013-40e0-bed6-f9e138a5ba7b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #431293 |
On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-7, gehan.am...@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:18:13 AM UTC+5:30, bigal...@gmail.com wrote: > > > If you're travelling instantaneously at the speed of light, you will be spread like peanut butter on the floor of the ship after going through an infinite acceleration rate. > > I get the same feeling when arguing with 'reativists' :) You can't be "arguing". Arguing implies some amount of knowledge. You are totally ignorant, Gehan.
[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]
Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]
Back to top | Article view | sci.physics.relativity
csiph-web