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Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory

From Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory
Date 2018-06-07 01:39 +0000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <pfa2cc$h4n$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (14 earlier) <88794dab-3b7b-45c9-889b-3a8976c6a48f@googlegroups.com> <pf3j8k$1lol$4@gioia.aioe.org> <80c24cdd-241f-449b-b12f-ef40b0cb9114@googlegroups.com> <a6365b55-c64e-45f9-91e8-e22b2c1e18a4@googlegroups.com> <5293b33a-8f32-4840-8ef9-68ad9ca0d620@googlegroups.com>

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Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 6:39:29 PM UTC-4, Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 4:53:17 PM UTC-5, kenseto wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:44:39 AM UTC-4, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> 
>>>> The point is: nobody cares what you mean by “material length”. The physical
>>>> length of moving objects are measurable and are routinely measured. 
>>> 
>>> So how do you MEASURE the physical length of a moving object? Give us
>>> some references please.
>> 
>> For technical reasons, measurements of length contraction are all indirect, 
>> since the only objects we can accelerate to relativistic speeds are elementary 
>> particles.
>> 
>> Given this caveat, indirect measurements of length contraction abound.
>> 1) The RHIC accelerator collides heavy nuclei. The MEASURED dynamics of 
>> the collision matches the results expected if the nuclei were Lorentz 
>> contracted by precisely the amount calculated.
>> 2) The magnetic force between two parallel current-carrying wires is due to 
>> Lorentz contraction of the current of electrons relative to the static
>> charges in the wires. The MEASURED attraction/repulsion *precisely* matches
>> the calculated calculation. This is an *easy* measurement.
>> 3) Length contraction and time dilation go hand-in-hand. A mere shift in 
>> frames will convert observed time dilation into observed length contraction.
>> For example, in the frame of the Earth, time dilation accounts for the 
>> anomalously high flux of cosmic-ray muons relative to what otherwise might
>> be expected on the basis of their half life. In the frame of the muons, 
>> they distance that the muons travel is shortened. The same gamma applies
>> to both. Time dilation in our frame is equivalent to length contraction
>> in the other.
>> 4) Analysis of particle collisions in accelerators can be explained only if
>> one applies the full Lorentz contractions. One cannot pick and choose, 
>> accepting only time dilation without accepting length contraction. BOTH
>> are required.
> As I see you don't actually measure the length. You calculate it from the
> time and using Lorentz transformations. Of course it will be contracted.

No, that is incorrect. In the first example cited, for instance, what is
being measured is nuclear density. Density as you know is mass (or energy
equivalent) divided by volume, and volume is related to length cubed. So if
one of those lengths decreases, then the density if the nucleus increases.
By measuring something that is highly sensitive to density, then you have a
measure of the change in length. Thus is ESPECIALLY true if you have a
theoretical prediction of how much the length changes, hence you have a
prediction how much the density changes, hence you predict how much the
sensitive “density barometer” will change. Then you just measure that
barometer change and see if it matches the prediction. This is standard
experimental science, which I gather you are kind of new to. 

The other probes are similar. 

> 
> So about Einstein's thought experiment, I know why we argued so long with no results:
> I was trying to follow the experiment using Newtonian Physics, because
> that's what I thought they had available at that time before Einstein
> came up with the Theory of Relativity, and by Newtonian physics it didn't
> make sense, because that assumes time is absolute, and t(A) would be =
> t(A'), also t(B) = t(B').
> And you guys kept arguing with me based on Einstein's theories and saying
> that the length of the train will be different, using Lorentz transform,
> etc. Obviously if we assume length contraction and time dilation, you
> reach to the result that in (M')'s frame A' and B' are not simultaneous.
> So in both cases what we want to demonstrate, we already use in the
> assumptions - circular reasoning.
> That's why the whole experiment is not proving anything, so it's useless.
> 
> You guys said to look at real experiments proving it - that's another thing.
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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Thread

Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-01 21:02 -0700
  Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 08:54 -0700
    Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 09:50 -0700
    Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 09:53 -0700
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 18:05 -0700
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 22:52 -0700
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 10:04 -0700
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 11:10 -0700
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 11:20 -0700
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:13 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:59 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 17:08 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 18:38 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 14:54 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 08:34 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 08:37 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 15:51 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 09:13 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 09:21 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 17:19 +0000
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 18:20 +0000
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:04 -0700
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 18:26 -0700
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 23:22 -0700
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 11:26 -0700
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 20:03 -0700
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-06-03 03:50 -0700
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 13:59 +0000
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 09:51 -0700
    Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 21:23 +0000
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 21:38 +0000
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 19:14 -0700
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 13:59 +0000
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 06:03 -0700
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 16:59 -0700
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-03 06:03 -0700
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 13:59 +0000
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-03 12:17 -0700
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 14:44 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-06 14:53 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 22:24 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-08 05:15 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 12:40 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Michael Moroney <moroney@TheWorld.com> - 2018-06-08 13:25 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 13:30 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 15:39 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 17:00 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 17:28 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-06-06 17:49 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Steven Nagy <nstefi@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 18:08 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-06-06 18:53 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 12:26 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-06-06 17:52 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 01:39 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-06-07 06:18 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 06:41 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-06-07 13:41 +0000
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-08 05:33 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 06:12 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-08 07:32 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 10:00 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 10:13 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 00:32 -0700
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 09:33 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-06 14:44 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 16:43 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-06-08 05:37 -0700
                Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 09:37 -0700
    Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 05:38 -0700
      Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 07:51 -0700
        Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 09:39 -0700
          Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 10:07 -0700
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 13:44 -0700
            Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-06-06 16:11 -0500
              Re: Einstein's Relativity Theory Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-06-06 14:38 -0700

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