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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #413307
| From | Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity |
| Subject | Re: Twin paradox |
| Date | 2017-03-19 13:05 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <ej67b3FppopU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <o9c5qc$1leu$1@gioia.aioe.org> <d336f957-572b-420d-9557-064dc80c806c@googlegroups.com> <ei1574Fdhs0U1@mid.individual.net> <oa9nk1$d8j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <1af8b7c7-fe71-4bcd-810d-2967eb34cf05@googlegroups.com> |
On 15/03/2017 9:22 PM, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 4:33:57 PM UTC-5, wugi wrote:
>> Op 5/03/2017 om 1:42 schreef Sylvia Else:
>>> On 5/03/2017 2:08 AM, Jonathan Doolin wrote:
>>
>>>> If you go back to the talk pages in archive 14 you'll see some
>>>> animations I made around that time.
>>>>
>>>> There is apparently, according to Dirk Van de Moortel, NO
>>>> LITERATURE in peer-reviewed journals that actually shows the
>>>> Lorentz Transformations actually done so that the spacetime
>>>> diagram is shown in the three frames.
>>
>> I've always found it surprising anyway, what little graphical
>> effort is put in "officialish" publications ...
>>
>>>> Therefore any animation or discussion of what the
>>>> two-dimensional spacetime diagram would look like from the
>>>> perspective of the traveling twin during any moment of their
>>>> travels is forbidden to be discussed in the article.
>>
>> ... that's why I've tried to do so in mine*, with the little basic
>> tools I had. The different standpoints of home and travelling twins
>> are one important aspect; the difference between calculation
>> results ("pure" Lorentz) and actually seeing things (as light
>> reaches the observer from different events) another. And the
>> graphical possibilities to visualize all this, of course.
>>
>> * http://home.scarlet.be/~pin12499/paratwin.htm
>>
>>>> Without that option to actually show the spacetime diagram in
>>>> the rest frame of the outbound twin, the inbound twin, and the
>>>> stay-at-home twin, the explanations tend to really give the
>>>> impression that the traveling twin has no other data about
>>>> what happened except, that their clock reads a smaller change
>>>> than the stay-at-home twin.
>>
>> And a mistaken impression it is ;-)
>>
>>>> But this would of course not be the most notable thing that
>>>> occurred during the twin's journey. For the twin, surely, the
>>>> thing that would blow his mind during the journey would be the
>>>> fact that during his turnaround, the image of the earth
>>>> (indeed, for all intents and purposes, the earth itself) jumps
>>>> back an enormous distance.
>>
>> That's precisely a result that struck me as odd and has left me
>> half perplex ever since. So I mention it specially, look for <<
>> after his instant maneuver, the hometwin appears to have got at a
>> different, greater distance (now in the homebound system, and
>> corresponding there to an "earlier" event) (*) [...] (*) This came
>> as a surprise even to me. Imagine [...]
>>>>
>> under heading "Relasee, TP-wise".
>>
>
> Well, it is no wonder a surprise, though, don't you think?
> Consideration of the distance to events and images in the frame of
> reference of the outbound twin, and the inbound twin, largely seems
> to be ignored by the mainstream. While there is a bit of interest in
> where events are "now" by Paul Anderson and Mike Fontenot, they get
> somewhat into the mainstream, because 'where things are now'
> demonstrates Lorentz Contraction.
>
> But asking "where was it when it produced the image" doesn't get
> published. So even when MIT created their very nice demonstration "A
> Slower Speed of Light" though it shows very clearly, when you're
> running around the environment at 99% of the speed of light, that the
> images of objects definitely do appear to recede when you accelerate
> toward them, they do not offer any sort of explanation or mention of
> this phenomenon in their information about the program.
>
> I gather, that's because there's simply no papers on the topic.
>
>>> The image of the Earth would do nothing unusual other than
>>> changing from being somewhat red to somewhat blue. In particular,
>>> it would not jump.
>>>
>>> However, the observer's changed velocity relative to the Earth
>>> would mean that the *calculated* position of the Earth in the
>>> observer's frame would abruptly change, as would the calculated
>>> time on Earth.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> Though the calculational observation would result in some change
>> in distance during the turnaround:
>> http://home.scarlet.be/~pin12499/MySRT/RelatyTravtwin2.PNG
>> (distance changes from DB to EB, even passing through a "rest
>> distance" value, but EB returning to same value as DB in the
>> symmetrical case)
>>
>> it is nothing like the big jump occurring during the actual "image"
>> or "seeing" observation:
>> http://home.scarlet.be/~pin12499/MySRT/TravtwinSee%20pt-of-vw.PNG
>> (Seeing observation of home-twin according to travelling twin, ie,
>> with his reference axes, outbound and inbound axes collapsed in a
>> single system.
>
>
> I have independent confirmation of the left-hand half of this
> diagram.
>
> Please watch this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_csFp-QZGg&lc=z13ffv3xnmjxifj5304cjprgur3wwzez42c
>
> At about 8:30 in the video I construct a "Noninertial Rest Frame"
> But instead of constructing it by erasing events above and below the
> line of simultaneity, it is constructed by erasing events above and
> below the past light cone of the traveling observer.
>
> This preserves all of the events in the space, so that each event is
> represented only once.
>
>
>> Left: as spacetime events. Right: as instant perception at every
>> moment of traveller's time). Rv- : home twin, or Earth, "image"
>> just before return event; Rv+ : home twin, or Earth, "image" just
>> after return event: see the jump!
>>
>> -- guido wugi
>
> Yes. Your Rv- and Rv+ is represented in this animation as event F.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Twin_paradox/Archive_14#/media/File:Lorentz_Transformations_of_Twin_Paradox_Minkowski_Diagram.gif
>
> Thank you for responding. It is really nice to have a response from
> someone who has has done some of the same modeling.
>
> Jonathan Doolin
>
It has long been known that the faster you go, the narrower your forward
field of view, and the wider your backward field of view, with respect
to things that are moving relative to you [*]. Things that are behind
you and off to the side, can appear to be in front of you, off to the
side, because although your motion does not affect the relative speed of
light, it does alter its relative direction.
Since the images of the objects in front of you are effectively squeezed
by your narrower field of view, you may construe them as looking further
away. However, if you made due allowance for the effects of your speed
on the direction of light impinging one you, then you wouldn't reach
such a conclusion.
Sylvia.
[*] This effect was used in the science fiction novel "Into Deepest
Space" by Geoffrey Hoyle, 1974.
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Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-03 07:04 -0800
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Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-19 19:30 -0500
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Re: Twin paradox wugi <brol@brol.be> - 2017-03-22 11:25 +0100
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Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 08:33 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-14 10:50 -0500
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Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 04:08 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-16 16:48 -0500
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Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 07:40 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox Idimi Higame <iumia@igmwwad.hh> - 2017-03-18 20:05 +0000
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 09:28 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-21 13:43 -0800
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Re: Twin paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-03-22 01:52 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-22 11:12 -0800
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-22 11:56 -0800
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-22 12:06 -0800
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 04:16 -0700
Re: Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-06 09:34 -0800
Re: Twin paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-03-06 23:01 +0100
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Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 09:49 -0800
Re: Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-07 14:04 -0800
Re: Twin paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-03-08 10:40 +0100
Re: Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-08 07:11 -0800
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-08 15:04 -0600
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Re: Twin paradox alsor@interia.pl - 2017-03-14 13:19 -0700
Re: Twin paradox "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-03-10 11:49 +0100
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Re: Twin paradox Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2017-03-19 21:33 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 06:13 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-08 14:34 -0800
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Re: Twin paradox someone <glenn.spigel@googlemail.com> - 2017-03-09 13:20 -0800
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Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-14 10:28 -0500
Re: Twin paradox Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2017-03-14 12:31 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-16 23:50 -0800
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-03-16 23:54 -0800
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Re: Twin paradox rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 07:54 -0700
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Re: Twin paradox rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 08:02 -0700
Re: Twin paradox "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-03-14 22:10 +0000
Re: Twin paradox rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 07:41 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 10:02 -0500
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 11:19 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 11:51 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0700
Twin paradox "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-19 09:26 -0700
Twin paradox "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-19 09:53 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-19 12:59 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 10:29 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 09:40 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 09:44 -0700
Re: Twin paradox numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 14:32 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Deon Joubert <dhjoubert@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 09:27 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-30 23:34 -0500
Re: Twin paradox Deon Joubert <dhjoubert@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 00:33 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Deon Joubert <dhjoubert@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 02:43 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-03-31 21:43 -0500
Re: Twin paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-04-01 00:52 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Deon Joubert <dhjoubert@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 01:41 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Domonique Corle <oreuni@wwerwo.co> - 2017-04-01 13:01 +0000
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-04-01 10:27 -0500
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-01 20:44 -0800
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-03 00:05 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-03 00:28 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-03 04:14 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 17:15 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-04 11:47 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 05:57 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-04-04 07:05 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 07:43 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-04-04 09:20 -0700
Re: Twin paradox "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-04 09:58 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 02:25 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-04-05 04:22 -0700
Re: Twin paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-04-05 06:23 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 09:58 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2017-04-05 10:21 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 11:36 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Hermelinda Riess <hsr@ermeemw.ei> - 2017-04-04 15:01 +0000
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-05 00:32 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 02:55 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-07 21:32 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 07:38 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-04-08 10:31 -0500
Re: Twin paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-04-08 08:42 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 14:29 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-10 22:18 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 06:11 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-12 00:13 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 07:00 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-12 14:49 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2017-04-13 09:44 +0000
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 06:03 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2017-04-13 20:40 +0000
Re: Twin paradox "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-04-14 10:42 +0100
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-14 08:27 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-04-16 05:49 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 08:05 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 08:22 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Nocasto Aboyar <oocaao@syeoby.ao> - 2017-04-17 15:36 +0000
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 09:08 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-17 10:45 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-17 10:56 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 10:14 -0700
Re: Twin paradox Jonathan Doolin <good4usoul@gmail.com> - 2017-04-20 08:48 -0700
Re: Twin paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-04-17 08:52 -0700
Re: Twin paradox The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2017-04-08 09:51 -0700
Re: Twin paradox "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-08 12:28 -0700
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