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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #451327
| From | Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity, sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? |
| Followup-To | sci.physics.relativity |
| Date | 2018-03-03 15:08 +0100 |
| Organization | PointedEars Software (PES) |
| Message-ID | <4944495.p5AjoybBPb@PointedEars.de> (permalink) |
| References | <845c19d6-7746-4fe9-9d2b-759bd12cd9f8@googlegroups.com> <p712a9$196t$4@gioia.aioe.org> <m0emC.99835$MO3.18011@fx24.am4> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Followups directed to: sci.physics.relativity
Keith Stein wrote:
>> kenseto wrote:
>>> The rate of passage of absolute time is the same everywhere...
>
> Yes, we know this
*We* do not. If *you* know this, then you know *nonsense*. (Know that you
are referring to a known crackpot’s statement. Ken Seto *provably* has no
clue about even *the most basic* concepts of physics.)
There is no absolute time, because time simply is _not_ absolute: The
observation of time depends on the relative velocities between observer rest
frame and object rest frame (special relativity), and on the differences of
spacetime curvature on the path between observer and object (general
relativity).
See also e.g. <news:1680894.CQOukoFCf9@PointedEars.de> and
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele-Keating_experiment>.
> because atomic spectra are identical throughout the universe,
*Locally* they are; *observed*, they are _not_. That is how we know that
the objects whose spectra we obtain are at rest in a *different* frame of
reference.
> i.e the frequencies emitted by atoms are the same everywhere at all times.
But not the *observed* frequencies. *That* is what redshift is all about.
> It is true that frequencies look to be lower with galaxies further from
> Earth.
Frequencies, as in *observed* frequencies, *are* lower.
They are *the lower the farther away the astronomical object is* – not only
when observed from Earth, but *from everywhere* in the universe. The reason
is the *metric* expansion of space(time):
[For reading the following, you should use a monospaced font.]
t₁ t₂ > t₂
<-----> <----------->
<---> <------->
<-> <--->
* * * * * * * * * *
* + * * * ^ ^ ^
* * * * * v : : * + * * * ^ ^ ^
* * * * * v : : : :
* * * * * v * * * * * v : :
: :
* * * * * v :
:
* * * * * v
<---> <------->
<-> <--->
* * * * * ^ * * * * * ^
* * * * * ^ : :
* * * * * ^ : : * * * * * ^ :
* * + * * v v v : :
* * * * * * * * * * ^ : :
: : :
* * + * * v v v
* * * * *
________
+ arbitrary observer
* observed points in space, e.g. other galaxies
Why?
This is a wave:
.''. .''.
. . . .
. . . . .
. . . .
'' ''
A wave is a repeating pattern:
: :
.''. : .''. :
. .v . .v
. . . . .
. .^ . .^
'' : '' :
: :
The part that is repeating is called a *cycle*:
.''.
. .
. . .
. .
''
The length of a cycle in space is called the *wavelength* λ (Greek small
letter lambda):
λ
:---------->:
: :
.''. .''.
. . . .
. . . . .
. . . .
'' ''
:<--------->:
λ
One can use a coordinate system to assign values to the wave:
^
1 : .''. .''. .'
:. . . . .
0 :------.----.------.----.--->
: . . . .
−1 : '' ''
A wave is a phenomenon in space (x). At the same time, it has different
values in different points in space:
^
1 : .''. .''. .'
:. . . . .
0 :------.----.------.----.---> x
: . . . .
−1 : '' ''
A wave is also traveling (“propagating”) through space.
This is a wave at time t₁:
λ
:<--------->:
^ : : :
1 : .''. : .''. .'
:. .: . . .
0 :------.----.------.----.---> x
: :. . . .
−1 : : '' ''
x₀
Some time t₂ later, it has traveled a certain distance in space:
λ
:<--------->:
^ : : :
1 : .''. .''. .'
: . : . . . .
0 :---.--:---.----.------.----.--> x
: . : . . . .
−1 :'' : '' ''
x₀
Therefore, a wave is also a phenomenon in time: The same point in space
experiences different values of the wave at different times.
So, instead of drawing the wave in space, we can also draw its value for the
same point in space, but at different times (t). For example, the point x₀
above experiences the value of the wave rising, falling, rising again,
falling again, and so on:
^
1 : .''. .''. .'
: . . . : . .
0 :--.------.----.--:---.----.---> t
: . . .: : . .
−1 :' '' : : ''
t₁ t₂
The time that it takes for a point in space to experience one cycle of the
wave is called the *period* T of the wave:
T
:<--------->:
^ : :
1 : .''. : .''. : .'
:. . :. . :.
0 :------.----.------.----.---> t
: . . . .
−1 : '' ''
“The position of a point in time (an instant) on a waveform cycle” is called
a *phase*. (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)>)
The *phase speed* c of a wave is the distance that a cycle of the wave
travels through space per unit time:
c = λ∕T
The *frequency* of a wave is the number of cycles experienced by the same
point in space per unit time:
f = 1∕T
It follows:
c = λ f (1)
We can describe light as an electromagnetic wave. Observation shows that
the (phase) speed of light is constant and the same for all observers in
the same optical medium:
c = const.
If the distance between an observer and a wave source increases, the
observed frequency decreases:
The point in space where the observer is experiences less cycles per unit
time, as the distance increases that a cycle must travel, but the phase
speed of the wave does _not_ increase.
With light, this means that the observed frequency of the light decreases:
the light appears more reddish to the observer as reddish light has a lower
frequency than e.g. blueish light.
However, in fact we do not only receive visible light from astronomical
sources; redshift pertains to *all* forms of electromagnetic radiation,
even those that humans cannot perceive (which is *much* more than they
can perceive):
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light#/media/File:EM_spectrum.svg>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision#Physiology_of_color_perception>
> This is conventionally considered to be a sort of Doppler Shift
> due to the expansion of the universe,
No, it is not. That is a common misconception:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift#Expansion_of_space> p.
> but it is much better viewed as a result of light slowing down as it
> travels through the intergalactic medium.
You are referring to “tired light”, a class of observationally *falsified*
theories:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light>
PointedEars
--
Q: Why is electricity so dangerous?
A: It doesn't conduct itself.
(from: WolframAlpha)
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Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-02-25 14:53 -0800
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-02-25 15:09 -0800
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Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-17 17:11 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-03-15 17:13 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-13 06:14 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 14:06 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-14 08:53 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 18:01 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 07:13 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 15:06 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 15:03 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-15 15:25 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-15 17:10 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-16 07:09 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-13 17:19 -0500
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-13 22:51 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-03-13 15:58 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-03-13 16:00 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-14 09:00 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-04 06:10 -0800
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-03 15:08 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Ický Bezdrátovì <ikbe@wmkfre.np> - 2018-03-03 14:11 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-04 06:22 -0800
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-05 12:43 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-03-03 07:50 -0800
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-12 13:22 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-12 13:26 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-12 13:27 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-12 13:31 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 16:01 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-03-17 15:16 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-17 17:24 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-03-17 10:42 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-03-17 21:20 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-17 18:43 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-18 02:46 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-17 19:16 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Simon Roberts <retenshun@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 06:39 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-18 07:30 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Simon Roberts <retenshun@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 08:15 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Simon Roberts <retenshun@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 08:20 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-18 21:16 +0100
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Simon Roberts <retenshun@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 08:51 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-18 13:34 -0500
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Simon Roberts <retenshun@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:58 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 07:20 -0700
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 14:44 +0000
Re: Is time everywhere in the universe the same? kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 08:50 -0700
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