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Groups > sci.math > #415196 > unrolled thread
| Started by | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2018-06-10 03:19 -0700 |
| Last post | 2018-06-11 05:14 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 206 — 14 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.math
Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 03:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-10 03:27 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-10 03:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-06-10 11:03 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-10 20:13 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-06-10 12:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 11:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-06-10 12:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 12:52 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-10 22:25 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 14:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-10 14:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-10 14:49 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:10 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-06-10 18:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 00:52 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:17 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:25 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 14:13 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-11 03:16 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:10 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-11 05:17 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-10 13:00 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-10 14:15 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-10 14:53 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:09 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 07:02 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 07:20 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 07:36 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 08:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 10:40 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 11:31 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 12:53 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 12:59 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 13:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-11 15:23 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 04:53 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-12 06:10 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 08:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-12 09:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 11:06 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 11:15 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-12 12:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-13 02:14 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-13 04:46 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-13 06:17 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-13 09:43 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-13 09:53 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-13 10:27 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-13 10:51 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-13 10:59 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-14 03:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-14 03:48 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-14 04:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-14 04:16 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-14 05:24 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-14 05:49 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-14 12:39 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-14 13:11 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-15 03:26 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. wpihughes@gmail.com - 2018-06-15 16:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-16 02:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. konyberg <konyberg@online.no> - 2018-06-16 03:20 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-14 14:20 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 03:51 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-15 08:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 08:58 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> - 2018-06-15 09:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-16 02:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-17 14:45 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 13:18 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-17 14:22 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-17 22:43 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-18 04:16 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-18 19:02 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-20 06:33 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-20 18:25 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-21 04:10 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-21 07:13 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-21 10:24 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-06-21 11:15 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-21 16:10 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-22 02:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-22 04:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-22 18:55 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-23 04:16 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-23 07:37 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-23 06:14 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-24 09:38 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-24 07:52 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-24 11:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-24 11:57 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-25 02:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-25 03:20 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-25 18:44 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-24 08:04 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-06-24 11:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-25 20:40 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-26 05:46 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-26 18:53 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. transfinity01@gmail.com - 2018-06-27 06:23 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-27 18:33 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. transfinity01@gmail.com - 2018-06-27 12:15 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-27 21:54 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-27 22:28 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-27 18:13 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. transfinity01@gmail.com - 2018-06-28 06:46 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-28 16:07 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. transfinity01@gmail.com - 2018-06-29 07:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-29 07:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-29 19:40 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-30 07:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-30 14:59 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-30 14:41 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-06-30 22:42 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-06-30 21:51 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-07-01 20:33 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-07-02 14:48 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-01 04:22 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-07-01 20:35 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-02 11:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-07-02 23:10 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> - 2018-07-02 14:36 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-03 05:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-07-03 14:49 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-07-02 18:47 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-03 05:52 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2018-07-03 19:28 -0500
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-07-04 10:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-05 02:43 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-05 04:58 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-05 06:46 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-06 02:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-07-06 02:36 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-07 02:13 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-07 02:17 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-07-07 05:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-08 02:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-06 04:57 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2018-07-06 05:11 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-07 02:16 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-07 05:54 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-08 02:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-08 06:42 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-07-05 05:34 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-05 07:07 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-07-06 08:11 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-06 11:24 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-07 02:25 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-07 05:25 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. jeff_jo@verizon.net - 2018-07-07 15:46 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-08 06:31 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-09 01:44 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-09 04:43 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-28 22:49 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. transfinity01@gmail.com - 2018-06-29 07:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. konyberg <konyberg@online.no> - 2018-06-29 11:58 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-30 06:08 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-30 15:12 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-30 07:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-03 02:12 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-03 05:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-07-04 01:48 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-07-04 09:55 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-07-05 03:04 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-24 23:03 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-25 02:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-25 22:53 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 13:39 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-17 14:21 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-17 23:28 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-17 23:58 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-18 04:18 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 04:22 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 04:25 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-18 06:20 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 06:33 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 06:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-18 09:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> - 2018-06-18 10:36 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 11:21 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 11:34 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. bursejan@gmail.com - 2018-06-18 11:47 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-18 22:45 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 23:33 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-21 04:10 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-24 22:59 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-25 02:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-10 20:51 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:01 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-11 08:38 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 11:37 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-11 12:33 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 12:58 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-11 13:47 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 14:28 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-06-11 23:45 +0200
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-11 19:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 05:15 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-12 05:56 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-12 08:44 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Dan Christensen <Dan_Christensen@sympatico.ca> - 2018-06-12 09:19 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-06-11 13:32 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 21:35 -0700
Re: Cantor's list is more broad than high. WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> - 2018-06-11 05:14 -0700
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 03:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <43b35792-2ca2-42c3-a025-2463036bb21e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415491 |
Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 22:11:39 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > > f is an infinite sequence of finite expressions. > > No, f is a function. f is an infinite sequence of finite expressions. Whether you call it a function is irrelevant. > However, f can be represented by an infinite sequence of finite expressions, So f is something "higher"? An idea divina? > your insistence is that the sequence is potentially infinite, so at any time we have a finite number of finite expression. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? Nowhere. There is nothing needed as long as the present state is too large to allow a view of the whole. Regards, WM
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| From | wpihughes@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 16:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7c4e87e9-a56e-44f8-88ab-0dc9d949b1c2@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415529 |
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 7:26:28 AM UTC-3, WM wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 22:11:39 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > > your insistence is that the sequence is potentially infinite, so at any time we have a finite number of finite expression. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? > > Nowhere. Then the number of finite expressions can never increase. However, given a potentially infinite sequence, the sequence can always get larger and hence the number of finite expressions can always increase. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from?
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-16 02:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f498cbc3-71bf-44f9-81ba-37a934818bbe@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415602 |
Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2018 01:01:19 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 7:26:28 AM UTC-3, WM wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 22:11:39 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > > > > your insistence is that the sequence is potentially infinite, so at any time we have a finite number of finite expression. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? > > > > Nowhere. > > Then the number of finite expressions can never increase. However, given a potentially infinite sequence, the sequence can always get larger and hence the number of finite expressions can always increase. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? Start with 10^1000 terms, add new terms to the sequence, then it will increase. Arrive at 10^10^10000 terms, add new terms. And so on. Notice that you cannot really identify more than 10^50 terms on a terrestrial computer. Regards, WM
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| From | konyberg <konyberg@online.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-16 03:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e063d5c4-a315-4fd4-b1ef-19cde9e9c042@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415626 |
lørdag 16. juni 2018 11.42.43 UTC+2 skrev WM følgende: > Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2018 01:01:19 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > > On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 7:26:28 AM UTC-3, WM wrote: > > > Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 22:11:39 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com: > > > > > > your insistence is that the sequence is potentially infinite, so at any time we have a finite number of finite expression. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? > > > > > > Nowhere. > > > > Then the number of finite expressions can never increase. However, given a potentially infinite sequence, the sequence can always get larger and hence the number of finite expressions can always increase. Where do the needed new finite expressions come from? > > Start with 10^1000 terms, add new terms to the sequence, then it will increase. Arrive at 10^10^10000 terms, add new terms. And so on. > > Notice that you cannot really identify more than 10^50 terms on a terrestrial computer. > > Regards, WM Really? KON
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| From | bursejan@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-14 14:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <49d6827e-9e45-4ecb-b510-075ee25497e6@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415489 |
They do discuss potentialism and actualism.
Is the multiverse a merely transient phenomenon
or can it legitimately claim to represent the
ultimate set-theoretic ontology?
http://logika.ff.cuni.cz/radek/papers/MCST_Synthese_Complete.pdf
I only thought this is discussed in Augsburg
Crank institute, in connection with some
Volkswagen Omlette...
But their potentialism and actualism is on
a much larger scale.
Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 21:39:16 UTC+2 schrieb WM:
> Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 14:50:00 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com:
> > On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 9:24:35 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > > Am Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2018 13:17:04 UTC+2 schrieb wpih...@gmail.com:
> > > > On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:01:45 AM UTC-3, WM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nothing infinite is countable.
> > > >
> > > > In your latest "contradiction" you say that if we accept ZFC then there is a list of the computable 0/1 sequences. What do you mean by list in this context?
> > >
> > > I corrected to "there is a list of all u-computable sequences" (namely computable sequences and finite sequences). According to ZFC they are countable and that is the same as listable.
> >
> >
> > In ZFC a set E is listable/countable iff there exists a surjection, f, from N to E. When you say the u-computable sequences are countable, do you mean there is an f, and if so what conditions (e.g. f has a finite representation) do you put on f.
>
> f is an infinite sequence of finite expressions. According to ZF it is actually infinite, i.e., it has as many elements as a real number has digits.
>
> BUT from Cantor's list we know that actual infinity is self-contradictory:
>
> If we assume the set of digits of each entry being actually infinite, then we can prove that the list, i.e., the set of entries is not actually infinite. But why should we believe then that each entry has actually infinitely many digits? No reason. There is merely potential infinity in all cases.
>
> Therefore f is potentially infinite, i.e., always finite, and therefore an u-computable pot. infinite sequence of rationals, i.e., a rational number.
>
> Regards, WM
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| From | Zelos Malum <zelos.malum@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 03:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <046834ed-2a37-4a7d-91e0-5ac47f45c584@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415489 |
>BUT from Cantor's list we know that actual infinity is self-contradictory: Not at all >If we assume the set of digits of each entry being actually infinite, then we can prove that the list, i.e., the set of entries is not actually infinite. But why should we believe then that each entry has actually infinitely many digits? No reason. There is merely potential infinity in all cases. And how do you prove this statement?
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 08:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c71a4c3b-e30e-4660-8b8c-c7ad8738afc2@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415534 |
Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 12:51:36 UTC+2 schrieb Zelos Malum: > >BUT from Cantor's list we know that actual infinity is self-contradictory: > > Not at all You are too blind to see our proofs. Ask someone not yet spoilt by transfinite nonsense. > > >If we assume the set of digits of each entry being actually infinite, then we can prove that the list, i.e., the set of entries is not actually infinite. But why should we believe then that each entry has actually infinitely many digits? No reason. There is merely potential infinity in all cases. > > And how do you prove this statement? An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. In realtity there are only those lines which have more successors of the diagonal than predecessors. Some lines are missing to acomplish completeness. It is not an intellectual achievement to "understand" that the list is nevertheless complete, but it is a sign of foolishness and lack of mathematical judgement. "All the math that takes place in the transinfinite is quite simply false. Notice that I do not say it is physically baseless, or mystical, or avant garde, or any other half-way adjective. It is false. It is wrong. It is a horrible, terrible mistake, one that is very difficult to understand. It is further proof that Modern math and physics have followed the same path as Modern art and music and architecture. It can only be explained as a cultural pathology, one where self-proclaimed intellectuals exhibit the most transparent symptoms of rational negligence. They are outlandishly irrational, and do not care that they are. They are proud to be irrational. They believe – due to a misreading of Nietzsche perhaps – that irrationality is a cohort of creativity. Or it is a stand-in, a substitute. A paradox therefore becomes a distinction. A badge of courage. A brave acceptance of Nature's refusal to make sense (as Feynman might have put it). If we somehow survive this cultural pathology, the future will look upon our time in horror and wonderment." [M. Mathis: "Introductory remarks on Cantor"] Regards, WM
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| From | FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 08:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <bf5923b7-a800-4792-a099-33426b996e5f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415563 |
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: > "All the math that takes place in the transinfinite is quite simply false. Notice that I do not say it is physically baseless, or mystical, or avant garde, or any other half-way adjective. It is false. It is wrong. It is a horrible, terrible mistake, one that is very difficult to understand. It is further proof that Modern math and physics have followed the same path as Modern art and music and architecture. It can only be explained as a cultural pathology, one where self-proclaimed intellectuals exhibit the most transparent symptoms of rational negligence. They are outlandishly irrational, and do not care that they are. They are proud to be irrational. They believe – due to a misreading of Nietzsche perhaps – that irrationality is a cohort of creativity. Or it is a stand-in, a substitute. A paradox therefore becomes a distinction. A badge of courage. A brave acceptance of Nature's refusal to make sense (as Feynman might have put it). If we somehow survive this cultural pathology, the future will look upon our time in horror and wonderment." [M. Mathis: "Introductory remarks on Cantor"] http://milesmathis.com/cant.html http://milesmathis.com/
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| From | FredJeffries <fredjeffries@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-15 09:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <80974c1a-005b-416b-95d5-0837e2a077ab@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415563 |
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: > An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. Nope
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-16 02:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <21f2f5f0-768b-4f69-a8ec-d5c47502ef26@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415565 |
Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: > On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: > > > An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. > > Nope Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. Regards, WM
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| From | "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-17 14:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pg6dpo$jef$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #415627 |
On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote: > Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: >> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: >> >>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. >> >> Nope > > Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. It's not a square (either in or out of set theory). Martin Shobe
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| From | "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-17 13:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <93a9570e-5266-4ea3-a9fa-cffd6e189941@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415705 |
On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 12:46:06 PM UTC-7, Shobe, Martin wrote:
> On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote:
> > Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries:
> >> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote:
> >>
> >>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns.
> >>
> >> Nope
> >
> > Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0.
>
> It's not a square (either in or out of set theory).
>
> Martin Shobe
As above and regardless the flailings
of a retro-finitist crankety troll,
there is a way to make it square then
for example as about that half of the
sequences have equal {0,1}-density, in
the sense of being absolutely normal
and *-distributed, then for example
what that means for probability theory
and a surprising "factorial/exponential
identity" as I began to detail years ago.
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-17 14:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <99411cc3-2ad7-42bc-9bf1-2459d5e0747b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415705 |
Am Sonntag, 17. Juni 2018 21:46:06 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote: > > Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: > >> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: > >> > >>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. > >> > >> Nope > > > > Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. > > It's not a square But ask George Greene. > (either in or out of set theory). Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? Regards, WM
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| From | "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-17 22:43 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pg79pj$8dc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #415724 |
On 6/17/2018 4:22 PM, WM wrote: > Am Sonntag, 17. Juni 2018 21:46:06 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: >> On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote: >>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: >>>> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: >>>> >>>>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. >>>> >>>> Nope >>> >>> Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. >> >> It's not a square > > But ask George Greene. Why? >> (either in or out of set theory). > > Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? Neither. Martin Shobe
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-18 04:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e0ec2324-b6a5-47d0-8eab-9b8e1a95fad2@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415741 |
Am Montag, 18. Juni 2018 05:43:56 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > On 6/17/2018 4:22 PM, WM wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 17. Juni 2018 21:46:06 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > >> On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote: > >>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: > >>>> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. > >>>> > >>>> Nope > >>> > >>> Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. > >> > >> It's not a square > > > > But ask George Greene. > > Why? He insists that the list is a square. > > >> (either in or out of set theory). > > > > Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? > > Neither. So it is. Not a square, neither more broad than long or vice versa. It is something that evades any analysis by mathematical tools. It is a delusion. Regards, WM
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| From | "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-18 19:02 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pg9h64$mbl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #415766 |
On 6/18/2018 6:16 AM, WM wrote: > Am Montag, 18. Juni 2018 05:43:56 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: >> On 6/17/2018 4:22 PM, WM wrote: >>> Am Sonntag, 17. Juni 2018 21:46:06 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: >>>> On 6/16/2018 4:42 AM, WM wrote: >>>>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2018 18:01:51 UTC+2 schrieb FredJeffries: >>>>>> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 8:19:19 AM UTC-7, WM wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> An actually infinite square has aleph_0 lines and aleph_0 columns. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nope >>>>> >>>>> Correct, as just proved. But according to set theors there are |N lines, i.e., aleph_0. >>>> >>>> It's not a square >>> >>> But ask George Greene. >> >> Why? > > > He insists that the list is a square. So? >>>> (either in or out of set theory). >>> >>> Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? >> >> Neither. > > So it is. Not a square, neither more broad than long or vice versa. It is something that evades any analysis by mathematical tools. It is a delusion. No. Martin Shobe
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-20 06:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c10b4c0d-5171-46e5-aff9-64677d800886@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415807 |
Am Dienstag, 19. Juni 2018 02:02:19 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > >>> Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? > >> > >> Neither. > > > > So it is. Not a square, neither more broad than long or vice versa. It is something that evades any analysis by mathematical tools. It is a delusion. > > No. Easy to say. Easy to disprove. The accessible part of the list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: L finite, C finite L finite, C infinite L infinite, C finite L infinite, C infinite Regards, WM
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| From | "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-20 18:25 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pgenoj$jer$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #415877 |
On 6/20/2018 8:33 AM, WM wrote: > Am Dienstag, 19. Juni 2018 02:02:19 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > > >>>>> Is it more broad than long or vice versa, then? >>>> >>>> Neither. >>> >>> So it is. Not a square, neither more broad than long or vice versa. It is something that evades any analysis by mathematical tools. It is a delusion. >> >> No. > > Easy to say. Easy to disprove. And you've already contradicted yourself. If it's easy to disprove, there's some analysis by mathematical tools that it hasn't evaded. > The accessible part of the list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: That isn't the universal quantifier. Martin Shobe
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| From | WM <wolfgang.mueckenheim@hs-augsburg.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-21 04:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a6b50c4e-d498-45f5-8e53-8d4d9f655cdb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #415890 |
Am Donnerstag, 21. Juni 2018 01:25:14 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: > On 6/20/2018 8:33 AM, WM wrote: > > The accessible part of the list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: > > That isn't the universal quantifier. There is no universal quantifier since every identified n has aleph_0 successors which are inaccessible. The accessible part of Cantor's list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: L finite, C finite L finite, C infinite L infinite, C finite L infinite, C infinite Regards, WM
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| From | "Shobe, Martin" <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-06-21 07:13 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pgg4p8$img$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #415927 |
On 6/21/2018 6:10 AM, WM wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 21. Juni 2018 01:25:14 UTC+2 schrieb Shobe, Martin: >> On 6/20/2018 8:33 AM, WM wrote: > > >>> The accessible part of the list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: >> >> That isn't the universal quantifier. > > There is no universal quantifier since every identified n has aleph_0 successors which are inaccessible. The accessible part of Cantor's list has less than aleph_0 lines and less than aleph_0 columns. The universal quantifer has no access to lines with more pre diagonal elements than post diagonal elements. The universal quantifier has access only to the first quarter, not to the three other quarter of the list with numbers L of lines or C of columns infinite: > > L finite, C finite L finite, C infinite > > L infinite, C finite L infinite, C infinite > Quantifiers aren't iterators. They do not "access" their domains by traversing lists. Martin Shobe
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