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Re: A new category of thought

From Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math, sci.lang
Subject Re: A new category of thought
Date 2025-12-01 17:37 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <10gkjo3$1hrmo$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <10gf76d$3ha5v$1@dont-email.me> <20251129094642.874@kylheku.com> <10gfcpa$3ji8m$1@dont-email.me> <20251129121613.116@kylheku.com> <10gfmc1$3nf97$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 29/11/2025 20:51, olcott wrote:

> Try and show how Gödel incompleteness can be
> specified in a language that can directly encode
> self-reference and has its own provability operator
> without hiding the actual semantics using Gödel numbers.

An outline how I'd go about this kind of thing (not complete by far, and
also not checked properly, though I have thought about it a bit). I've
done this about Olcott's paraphrasing of Goedel's outline in PM rather
than the challenge stated above because Goedel's system P is weird and I
don't trust it at all. IMPORTANT! Goedels outline and Olcott's
paraphrase use a self-referential definition rather than universal
quantification! I'll have to cogitate more to waffle about that.

Note, it involves a formal system /extension/ rather than an /episystem/
and that's how we may interpret the challenge to do our task "in [the]
language".

Thinking about it a touch more carefully than before, assuming Olcott
very carefully formulated his G definition (I think F is nothing to do
with Goedel's system P, but is more akin to a modernisation of PM  which
goedel used for his similar outline). Note I have this time interpreted
F to refer to a basic system rather than the definition extension that I
previously supposed. This way we have a few points in the space of
systems to reason more clearly with.

You have to take this all with a pinch of salt, we're using ":=" and it
will take some formalisation which I'm not doing (and so will |/-).


Then consider Olcott's paraphrasing

G := (F |/- G)

The above must be an axiom of a definition extension I'll call "I" that
also adjoins G and I to the objects of F and we'll assume we've already
formalised extension within F. I'll call the resulting extended system
"I(F)" and suppose that's the form by which statements in F may name a
system "F" extended by I.

In that case I(F) is consistent: G is not derived of F.

We'd have a problem if I use a definition extension "J" that adjoins,
instead, objects G and J and an axiom

G := (J(F) |/- G).

"J(F)" names what I assumed Olcott had meant "F" to name previously. I
kind-of-conjecture that J(F) is contradictory because it seems obvious
that we can derive both |- G and |/- G which is how we'll recognise
contradiction. I hesitate to use the term "inconsistent" because I don't
trust the concept having found "indiscriminate" to be satisfactory and
more general for simpler systems.


Having drawn a very faint line on a block of stone before spending eons
carving and polishing and looking up to see what it took to do so
little, it is obvious why Olcott has not been swayed by the
conversations in these newsgroups.

-- 
Tristan Wibberley

The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
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Thread

A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 10:32 -0600
  Re: A new category of thought Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-29 17:53 +0000
    Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 12:07 -0600
      Re: A new category of thought dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 13:19 -0500
        Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-01 16:55 +0000
          Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 11:04 -0600
        Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-02 11:49 +0200
          Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-02 09:26 -0600
            Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-04 08:46 -0600
              Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-05 10:52 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 11:21 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-12-05 19:57 -0700
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 21:18 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 11:01 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:40 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-07 12:47 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 09:16 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-08 02:04 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 21:21 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-08 09:55 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 12:43 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-06 22:16 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 21:50 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-07 05:32 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-12-07 15:49 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 11:38 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-07 07:32 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 07:37 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-07 17:55 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 17:15 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-07 21:50 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 21:26 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 07:40 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 12:47 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 19:18 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 19:00 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 21:24 -0500
                Key new insight into halting undecidability polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 20:34 -0600
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 21:57 -0500
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 21:16 -0600
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 22:22 -0500
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 21:50 -0600
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-08 23:20 -0500
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 22:30 -0600
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-09 07:42 -0500
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-09 10:05 -0600
                Re: Key new insight into halting undecidability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-09 23:02 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-08 02:14 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 21:21 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-08 07:07 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 10:41 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2025-12-08 19:39 +0000
            Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-05 10:57 +0200
              Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 11:30 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 10:53 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:33 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-07 12:42 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 09:03 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-08 06:12 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 07:59 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 10:18 -0600
      Re: A new category of thought Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-29 20:23 +0000
        Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 14:51 -0600
          Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 16:27 -0500
            Re: A new category of thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 15:53 -0800
              Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 19:17 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 16:35 -0800
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 20:10 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 19:49 -0800
                Re: A new category of thought "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 19:50 -0800
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-02 01:59 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-12-01 23:11 -0500
          Re: A new category of thought Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-29 21:39 +0000
            Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 15:59 -0600
              Re: A new category of thought Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-29 22:44 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-29 17:19 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 19:21 -0500
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-02 01:13 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 19:50 -0600
              Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-01 13:02 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 11:15 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-02 10:53 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-02 08:00 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-03 12:41 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-03 09:59 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-05 10:48 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-05 09:30 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-05 10:41 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-06 10:37 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 06:24 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-07 12:39 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 08:59 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-09 15:15 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought polcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-09 12:04 -0600
                Re: A new category of thought Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-12-14 13:02 +0200
                Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-02 01:39 +0000
                Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:01 -0600
          Re: A new category of thought Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-12-01 17:37 +0000
            Re: A new category of thought olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 13:44 -0600
  Re: A new category of thought Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-29 15:08 -0500

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