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java still worthwhile?

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  java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-26 17:25 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-26 18:37 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2019-02-27 07:28 -0500
      Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-02-27 09:32 -0500
    Re: java still worthwhile? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2019-03-01 11:10 +0100
      Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-03-01 10:11 -0500
        Re: java still worthwhile? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2019-03-05 09:40 +0100
          Re: java still worthwhile? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2019-03-05 09:33 -0500
            Re: java still worthwhile? John McWilliams <jpmcw@comcast.net> - 2019-03-05 13:56 -0800

#4427 — java still worthwhile?

Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#4428

On 2/26/2019 6:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
>> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
> I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with your
> dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
> 
> I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit multiple
> files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one argument for
> using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by understanding ant
> and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the same way as you'd use
> 'make' when building a multi-source-module C program.
> 
> This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
> with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
> 
> ant clean all docs
> 
> to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation with
> javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this covers the
> other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
> 
> This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
> from careful design of classes and the way they interact.
> 
> 

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple 
times. I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers. I 
don't know anything about refactoring. I would spend the time on a 
use-case diagram and class/SDK/etc. diagram; might not be all as easy as 
I think. Getting into the dirt of programming is going to require a 
reference to rely on. Microsoft's PowerShell ISE seems to be something 
closer to what I could do now that I think of it.

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#4429

On 2/26/2019 5:25 PM, dale wrote:
> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

     In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
who are already believers.

     It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value.  If you
want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
be just a bit suspicious about the outcome.  If you're studying the
plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
grain of salt.  And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!

     Just sayin' ...

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
Six hundred ninety-three days to go.

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#4430

On 2/27/2019 7:28 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 2/26/2019 5:25 PM, dale wrote:
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting 
>> to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
>      In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
> the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
> who are already believers.
> 
>      It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
> practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value.  If you
> want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
> be just a bit suspicious about the outcome.  If you're studying the
> plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
> grain of salt.  And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
> asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!
> 
>      Just sayin' ...
> 

Just listening ...

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#4432

On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:

> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to 
> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented 
> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans 
> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
a few.

If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
the door at almost any employer.

If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
least have a working familiarity with the following:

- Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
three IDEs in their skills section.

- Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
since 2005.

- Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.

- The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#4433

On 3/1/2019 5:10 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:25:18 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
>> note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
>> architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
>> IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...
> 
> Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
> language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
> ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
> decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
> knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
> Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
> a few.
> 
> If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
> you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
> considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
> fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
> that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
> the door at almost any employer.
> 
> If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
> least have a working familiarity with the following:
> 
> - Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
> from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
> the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
> but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
> simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
> three IDEs in their skills section.
> 
> - Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
> development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
> runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
> loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
> since 2005.
> 
> - Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
> control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
> colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
> control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.
> 
> - The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
> thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
> framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
> framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
> prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
> founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
> matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
> SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.
> 
> Liebe Gruesse,
> 		Joerg
> 

Thanks for the detailed reply Joerg !!!

Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

How about github instead of git?

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#4435

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:11:08 -0500, dale wrote:

> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay too.

> How about github instead of git?

Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
that, but its a good aproximation).

That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
that's a perfectly fine choice.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#4436

On 3/5/2019 3:40 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:11:08 -0500, dale wrote:
> 
>> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?
> 
> Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
> IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
> either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay too.
> 
>> How about github instead of git?
> 
> Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
> by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
> GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
> that, but its a good aproximation).
> 
> That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
> and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
> a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
> that's a perfectly fine choice.
> 
> Liebe Gruesse,
> 		Joerg
> 

Thank you very much Joerg !!!

-- 
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

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#4437

On 3/5/19   PDT 6:33 AM, dale wrote:
> On 3/5/2019 3:40 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:11:08 -0500, dale wrote:
>>
>>> Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?
>>
>> Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
>> IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
>> either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay 
>> too.
>>
>>> How about github instead of git?
>>
>> Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
>> by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
>> GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more 
>> than
>> that, but its a good aproximation).
>>
>> That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
>> and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you 
>> have
>> a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
>> that's a perfectly fine choice.
>>
>> Liebe Gruesse,
>>         Joerg
>>
> 
> Thank you very much Joerg !!!
> 
too many xposts

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