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OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue

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  OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-20 19:07 -0700
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-21 02:43 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jack4747@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 02:59 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 09:39 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-21 09:56 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:08 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 03:56 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 11:52 -0700
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 03:37 -0700
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 08:30 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 08:38 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 09:02 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-21 09:10 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 09:13 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:47 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 22:59 -0400
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 09:11 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 09:26 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 10:46 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:04 -0400
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 09:44 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:24 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:29 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:48 -0400
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-21 13:16 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 13:46 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 15:03 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 15:31 -0700
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 16:14 -0700
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:11 -0700
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-07-21 20:51 -0700
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:08 -0400
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-24 09:51 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-24 21:35 -0400
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:01 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 11:48 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 11:58 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-21 23:57 +0100
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:02 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 00:30 +0100
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 01:04 -0400
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:39 +0100
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:09 -0400
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-22 08:42 -0700
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 17:10 +0100
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 12:11 -0400
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-22 12:15 -0700
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:10 -0400
                              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2017-07-23 22:33 +0200
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:09 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 19:32 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 01:05 -0400
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:45 +0100
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:11 -0400
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 17:20 +0100
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-07-22 09:41 +0100
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 09:13 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:06 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 16:07 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:13 -0400
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 11:11 -0500
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 09:29 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 12:08 -0500
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 10:57 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:13 -0400
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:26 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 10:32 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 10:56 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 11:09 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 11:02 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 11:13 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 11:40 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:54 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-21 15:14 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:20 -0400
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-21 23:16 -0400
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-22 13:26 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-22 20:20 -0400
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2017-07-22 11:31 -0400
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 09:20 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 13:53 -0400
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 11:13 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 11:51 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:09 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 14:05 -0500
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:18 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-07-21 15:20 -0500
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 14:14 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:33 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:45 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:21 -0400
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 12:37 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-07-21 14:09 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-21 14:19 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-07-21 14:38 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 15:12 -0700
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-24 04:13 -0700
        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-24 10:01 -0700
          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-25 03:33 -0700
            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 07:29 -0700
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 08:38 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 11:06 -0700
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 11:28 -0700
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 12:01 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 12:30 -0700
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 12:37 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 12:54 -0700
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 13:26 -0700
                              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 13:34 -0700
                                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 13:50 -0700
                                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 14:03 -0700
                                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 14:19 -0700
                                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-25 14:50 -0700
                                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-25 15:12 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-26 04:20 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-25 21:04 -0400
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-07-26 09:25 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-07-26 13:45 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-26 21:43 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-25 19:06 -0400
              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-26 04:09 -0700
                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-26 16:44 -0700
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-27 10:24 +0800
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-26 19:36 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-28 13:09 +0800
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 22:42 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-28 06:54 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 21:03 +0000
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-28 14:16 -0700
                              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-31 05:29 -0700
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-28 17:59 -0400
                              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-28 22:32 -0400
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-31 05:27 -0700
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-28 22:30 -0400
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-29 20:02 +0800
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-29 10:03 -0400
                              Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-29 22:07 +0800
                                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue krw@notreal.com - 2017-07-29 10:55 -0400
                                Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-07-29 08:05 -0700
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-26 19:37 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-27 05:51 -0700
                        Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Taxed and Spent <nospamplease@nonospam.com> - 2017-07-27 06:09 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-07-28 06:40 -0700
                          Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 21:25 +0000
                            Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-07-28 17:50 -0700
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 21:35 -0700
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-07-28 12:58 +0800
                      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2017-08-01 02:19 -0700
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-07-28 20:21 +0000
                  Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-07-26 22:39 -0400
                    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-07-27 22:07 -0700
    Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-07-21 13:12 -0500
      Re: OT: Algebra is a civil rights issue bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-07-21 17:20 -0400

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#470046

Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 7:30 PM:
> On 22/07/17 00:02, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>> On 21/07/17 19:58, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> It's important to understand, to feel, the basic concepts: algebra,
>>>> trig, polynomials, circuit theory, signals-and-systems, physics,
>>>> thermo, maybe some optics. It's not necessary any more to grind out
>>>> solutions by hand.
>>>>
>>>> Thet's why education should be less abstract, more related to the real
>>>> world. When I took EE classes, stuff meant a lot more to me than it
>>>> did to the other guys, because my amateur experience with electronics
>>>> connected the theory to actual circuits.
>>>
>>> Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is
>>> is an interesting question.
>>>
>>> Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...
>>>
>>> Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication
>>> and division by hand?
>>> Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication
>>> and division by hand?
>>>
>>> I learned both by rote. God it was tedious, and arguably a
>>> waste of life, but there was little alternative.
>>> (Fortunately pi^2=g=10)
>>>
>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>
>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do
>> something you
>> won't do?
>
> I can't believe you are asking that. I'm gobsmacked.

So gobsmacked you can't answer the question obviously.  Let me know when you 
get your senses back.


>>> That may be coloured by my having twice in my career
>>> to develop arithmetic algorithms for computers, because
>>> no libraries were available.
>>>
>>> [1] e.g knowing the one true answer to "what is 1+2*3"
>>
>> Are you asking for the answer to 2 3 * 1 + or 1 2 + 3 * in postfix notation?
>
> Normal laws of arithmetic as everybody (should be)
> taught in school. If you are "clever" you will ask
> where the brackets are, and I will say "no brackets".

I don't care.  If someone wants to give me an equation that depends on 
remembering the order of operations for computer programming, I tell them to 
SHOW ME THE PARENTHESES.  There is a set of rules for math I learned 50 
years ago and then there are different rules for all the various programming 
languages I learned over the last 40 or so.  At some point I learned that 
rather than deal with assumptions I would code to indicate *clearly* without 
assumptions what the order of operations was using parentheses. 
Interestingly enough RPN doesn't use parentheses and so has no confusion 
about the "assumptions".

I'm not interested in playing games.  If you want me to code something tell 
me what you want coded without games or assumptions.  I'm too fucking old to 
deal with the crap!  I think I'm actually starting to forget more than a lot 
of the kids know!

-- 

Rick C

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#470053

On 22/07/17 06:04, rickman wrote:
> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 7:30 PM:
>> On 22/07/17 00:02, rickman wrote:
>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>>> On 21/07/17 19:58, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> It's important to understand, to feel, the basic concepts: algebra,
>>>>> trig, polynomials, circuit theory, signals-and-systems, physics,
>>>>> thermo, maybe some optics. It's not necessary any more to grind out
>>>>> solutions by hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thet's why education should be less abstract, more related to the real
>>>>> world. When I took EE classes, stuff meant a lot more to me than it
>>>>> did to the other guys, because my amateur experience with electronics
>>>>> connected the theory to actual circuits.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is
>>>> is an interesting question.
>>>>
>>>> Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...
>>>>
>>>> Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication
>>>> and division by hand?
>>>> Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication
>>>> and division by hand?
>>>>
>>>> I learned both by rote. God it was tedious, and arguably a
>>>> waste of life, but there was little alternative.
>>>> (Fortunately pi^2=g=10)
>>>>
>>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>>
>>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do
>>> something you
>>> won't do?
>>
>> I can't believe you are asking that. I'm gobsmacked.
>
> So gobsmacked you can't answer the question obviously.  Let me know when you get
> your senses back.

Just so. Plus it was past my bedtime.

There is the "renaissance man" concept, where if you
don't understand some basic maths you are considered
as unschooled as those that have never read any literature.
A bit abstract, but a revealing PoV, and demolishes the
literati's "oh I'm proud I don't know maths" attitudes.

There is the question of what you should teach individuals
*before* they know what they *are* *interested* in and
capable of.

Most people that have had teenagers will know the "I don't
want to do X" whine, where X is new and requires them to
get out of bed. I vividly remember two cases with my
daughter:
  - "I don't want to go and see that old ruin" - but
    when I forced her to she had a whale of a time
    clambering over the walls and running up and down
    the ramparts
  - "I don't want to fly in a glider" - but afterwards
    she really enjoyed it, chose to go solo before she
    could drive a car, and has been living out on some
    of the tales ever since (and probably got job
    interviews because of it)


>>>> That may be coloured by my having twice in my career
>>>> to develop arithmetic algorithms for computers, because
>>>> no libraries were available.
>>>>
>>>> [1] e.g knowing the one true answer to "what is 1+2*3"
>>>
>>> Are you asking for the answer to 2 3 * 1 + or 1 2 + 3 * in postfix notation?
>>
>> Normal laws of arithmetic as everybody (should be)
>> taught in school. If you are "clever" you will ask
>> where the brackets are, and I will say "no brackets".
>
> I don't care.  If someone wants to give me an equation that depends on
> remembering the order of operations for computer programming, I tell them to
> SHOW ME THE PARENTHESES.  There is a set of rules for math I learned 50 years
> ago and then there are different rules for all the various programming languages
> I learned over the last 40 or so.  At some point I learned that rather than deal
> with assumptions I would code to indicate *clearly* without assumptions what the
> order of operations was using parentheses. Interestingly enough RPN doesn't use
> parentheses and so has no confusion about the "assumptions".
>
> I'm not interested in playing games.  If you want me to code something tell me
> what you want coded without games or assumptions.  I'm too fucking old to deal
> with the crap!  I think I'm actually starting to forget more than a lot of the
> kids know!

The question is about *mathematics*, *not* about computers
nor programming languages. The two are very /very/
different, and anybody that thinks they correspond is
living in a state of sin or ignorance.

If you want to understand a little more, Maclaren's
"How Computers Handle Numbers A.k.a. Computer
Arithmetic Uncovered" is a good starting point.
http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/nmm1/Arithmetic/paper.pdf

Personally I think that when people vote, if they can't
correctly answer a simple arithmetic question without a
calculator, then their vote should be devalued by a factor
of 10.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#470064

Tom Gardner wrote on 7/22/2017 4:39 AM:
> On 22/07/17 06:04, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 7:30 PM:
>>> On 22/07/17 00:02, rickman wrote:
>>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>>>> On 21/07/17 19:58, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> It's important to understand, to feel, the basic concepts: algebra,
>>>>>> trig, polynomials, circuit theory, signals-and-systems, physics,
>>>>>> thermo, maybe some optics. It's not necessary any more to grind out
>>>>>> solutions by hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thet's why education should be less abstract, more related to the real
>>>>>> world. When I took EE classes, stuff meant a lot more to me than it
>>>>>> did to the other guys, because my amateur experience with electronics
>>>>>> connected the theory to actual circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is
>>>>> is an interesting question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...
>>>>>
>>>>> Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication
>>>>> and division by hand?
>>>>> Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication
>>>>> and division by hand?
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned both by rote. God it was tedious, and arguably a
>>>>> waste of life, but there was little alternative.
>>>>> (Fortunately pi^2=g=10)
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>>>
>>>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do
>>>> something you
>>>> won't do?
>>>
>>> I can't believe you are asking that. I'm gobsmacked.
>>
>> So gobsmacked you can't answer the question obviously.  Let me know when
>> you get
>> your senses back.
>
> Just so. Plus it was past my bedtime.
>
> There is the "renaissance man" concept, where if you
> don't understand some basic maths you are considered
> as unschooled as those that have never read any literature.
> A bit abstract, but a revealing PoV, and demolishes the
> literati's "oh I'm proud I don't know maths" attitudes.
>
> There is the question of what you should teach individuals
> *before* they know what they *are* *interested* in and
> capable of.
>
> Most people that have had teenagers will know the "I don't
> want to do X" whine, where X is new and requires them to
> get out of bed. I vividly remember two cases with my
> daughter:
>  - "I don't want to go and see that old ruin" - but
>    when I forced her to she had a whale of a time
>    clambering over the walls and running up and down
>    the ramparts
>  - "I don't want to fly in a glider" - but afterwards
>    she really enjoyed it, chose to go solo before she
>    could drive a car, and has been living out on some
>    of the tales ever since (and probably got job
>    interviews because of it)

Do you realize you have given not one reason why people should learn how to 
perform arithmetic when they will never use it?


>>>>> That may be coloured by my having twice in my career
>>>>> to develop arithmetic algorithms for computers, because
>>>>> no libraries were available.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] e.g knowing the one true answer to "what is 1+2*3"
>>>>
>>>> Are you asking for the answer to 2 3 * 1 + or 1 2 + 3 * in postfix
>>>> notation?
>>>
>>> Normal laws of arithmetic as everybody (should be)
>>> taught in school. If you are "clever" you will ask
>>> where the brackets are, and I will say "no brackets".
>>
>> I don't care.  If someone wants to give me an equation that depends on
>> remembering the order of operations for computer programming, I tell them to
>> SHOW ME THE PARENTHESES.  There is a set of rules for math I learned 50 years
>> ago and then there are different rules for all the various programming
>> languages
>> I learned over the last 40 or so.  At some point I learned that rather
>> than deal
>> with assumptions I would code to indicate *clearly* without assumptions
>> what the
>> order of operations was using parentheses. Interestingly enough RPN
>> doesn't use
>> parentheses and so has no confusion about the "assumptions".
>>
>> I'm not interested in playing games.  If you want me to code something
>> tell me
>> what you want coded without games or assumptions.  I'm too fucking old to
>> deal
>> with the crap!  I think I'm actually starting to forget more than a lot of
>> the
>> kids know!
>
> The question is about *mathematics*, *not* about computers
> nor programming languages. The two are very /very/
> different, and anybody that thinks they correspond is
> living in a state of sin or ignorance.

You were the one who mixed them with your example of programming computer 
arithmetic only twice in your life.


> If you want to understand a little more, Maclaren's
> "How Computers Handle Numbers A.k.a. Computer
> Arithmetic Uncovered" is a good starting point.
> http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/nmm1/Arithmetic/paper.pdf
>
> Personally I think that when people vote, if they can't
> correctly answer a simple arithmetic question without a
> calculator, then their vote should be devalued by a factor
> of 10.

Or just apply forced sterilization.  Isn't Eugenics the new vaccination 
program?

-- 

Rick C

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#470081

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:09:22 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:


> Do you realize you have given not one reason why people should learn how to 
> perform arithmetic when they will never use it?
> 
> 
> 
> 

>
> Rick C

Do you realize  that you have not given one reason why people should learn history?  Do you realize that you  have  not given one reason why people should learn Latin?  

Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.

                                           Dan

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#470089

On 22/07/17 16:42, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:09:22 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>
>
>> Do you realize you have given not one reason why people should learn how to
>> perform arithmetic when they will never use it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>> Rick C
>
> Do you realize  that you have not given one reason why people should learn history?  Do you realize that you  have  not given one reason why people should learn Latin?
>
> Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.

Precisely.

Not exactly rocket science, is it!

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#470090

dcaster@krl.org wrote on 7/22/2017 11:42 AM:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:09:22 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>
>
>> Do you realize you have given not one reason why people should learn how to
>> perform arithmetic when they will never use it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>> Rick C
>
> Do you realize  that you have not given one reason why people should learn history?  Do you realize that you  have  not given one reason why people should learn Latin?

I never suggested anyone learn either of those.  Tom said it was a good idea 
for everyone to learn to do long arithmetic.  "Personally I don't think they 
should have to do it by hand, but they should know how to do it by hand".

> Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.

Clearly you didn't learn much about debating.  Reductio ad absurdum.

-- 

Rick C

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#470130

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:


> > Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.
> 
> Clearly you didn't learn much about debating.  Reductio ad absurdum.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick C

" Reductio ad asurdum "  Guess you did find taking Latin not a complete waste of time.

Probably should have put in some smiley faces.  I just assume that everyone can recognise sarcasm.

                                             Dan

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#470171

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT), "dcaster@krl.org"
<dcaster@krl.org> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>
>
>> > Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.
>> 
>> Clearly you didn't learn much about debating.  Reductio ad absurdum.
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Rick C
>
>" Reductio ad asurdum "  Guess you did find taking Latin not a complete waste of time.
>
>Probably should have put in some smiley faces.  I just assume that everyone can recognise sarcasm.

Requires a brain.

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#470275

On 23-7-2017 2:10, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT), "dcaster@krl.org"
> <dcaster@krl.org> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 12:15:19 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.
>>>
>>> Clearly you didn't learn much about debating.  Reductio ad absurdum.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Rick C
>>
>> " Reductio ad asurdum "  Guess you did find taking Latin not a complete waste of time.
>>
>> Probably should have put in some smiley faces.  I just assume that everyone can recognise sarcasm.
>
> Requires a brain.
>
Particularly a properly working brain.

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#470170

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:42:35 -0700 (PDT), "dcaster@krl.org"
<dcaster@krl.org> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 9:09:22 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>
>
>> Do you realize you have given not one reason why people should learn how to 
>> perform arithmetic when they will never use it?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>>
>> Rick C
>
>Do you realize  that you have not given one reason why people should learn history?  Do you realize that you  have  not given one reason why people should learn Latin?  
>
>Maybe we should drop the requirement to go to school.  Most people never use every thing they learn in school.

Seems that's the left's plan, exactly.  Why actually teach the people
*anything*?  It only makes shepherding them more difficult.

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#470025

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:

> > Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
> > but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
> > calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.

> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something 
> you won't do?

Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.  
That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.

Chernobyl, same story.

Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.

A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
always misses.

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#470047

whit3rd wrote on 7/21/2017 10:32 PM:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>
>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>
>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something
>> you won't do?
>
> Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
> random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
> evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
> into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
> a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.
> That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.
>
> Chernobyl, same story.
>
> Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.
>
> A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
> always misses.

I don't think learning algebra would have helped any of these situations.

-- 

Rick C

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#470056

On 22/07/17 06:05, rickman wrote:
> whit3rd wrote on 7/21/2017 10:32 PM:
>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>
>>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>
>>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something
>>> you won't do?
>>
>> Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
>> random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
>> evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
>> into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
>> a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.
>> That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.
>>
>> Chernobyl, same story.
>>
>> Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.
>>
>> A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
>> always misses.
>
> I don't think learning algebra would have helped any of these situations.

Your statement was about more than algebra.

In any case, learning algebra forces you to understand
that you need chains of steps to get to the answer, and
that intuitive/emotional "reasoning" isn't sufficient.

Too many people think that "if I /want/ X enough, then X
will happen", and that "if you didn't get X then you didn't
try hard enough or were a bad person".

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#470065

Tom Gardner wrote on 7/22/2017 4:45 AM:
> On 22/07/17 06:05, rickman wrote:
>> whit3rd wrote on 7/21/2017 10:32 PM:
>>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
>>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>>
>>>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>>
>>>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something
>>>> you won't do?
>>>
>>> Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
>>> random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
>>> evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
>>> into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
>>> a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.
>>> That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.
>>>
>>> Chernobyl, same story.
>>>
>>> Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.
>>>
>>> A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
>>> always misses.
>>
>> I don't think learning algebra would have helped any of these situations.
>
> Your statement was about more than algebra.

My statement was about learning skills that you won't use.  Your examples 
don't actually cover that.  They are examples of people making bad 
decisions.  Not much overlap.


> In any case, learning algebra forces you to understand
> that you need chains of steps to get to the answer, and
> that intuitive/emotional "reasoning" isn't sufficient.
>
> Too many people think that "if I /want/ X enough, then X
> will happen", and that "if you didn't get X then you didn't
> try hard enough or were a bad person".

You talk to some weird people.

-- 

Rick C

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#470091

On 22/07/17 14:11, rickman wrote:
> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/22/2017 4:45 AM:
>> On 22/07/17 06:05, rickman wrote:
>>> whit3rd wrote on 7/21/2017 10:32 PM:
>>>> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>>>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>>>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>>>>
>>>>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something
>>>>> you won't do?
>>>>
>>>> Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
>>>> random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
>>>> evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
>>>> into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
>>>> a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.
>>>> That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.
>>>>
>>>> Chernobyl, same story.
>>>>
>>>> Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.
>>>>
>>>> A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
>>>> always misses.
>>>
>>> I don't think learning algebra would have helped any of these situations.
>>
>> Your statement was about more than algebra.
>
> My statement was about learning skills that you won't use.

And how, precisely, can you *predict* which skills any
given child will and won't use later in life?

There's an old Asmiov story that has stuck in my mind
over the decades. It is worth speedreading, and
illustrates some consequences of not learning more
than you need. it is available at:
http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php


> Your examples don't
> actually cover that.  They are examples of people making bad decisions.  Not
> much overlap.

You are typing too fast. I didn't make those suggestions.


>> In any case, learning algebra forces you to understand
>> that you need chains of steps to get to the answer, and
>> that intuitive/emotional "reasoning" isn't sufficient.
>>
>> Too many people think that "if I /want/ X enough, then X
>> will happen", and that "if you didn't get X then you didn't
>> try hard enough or were a bad person".
>
> You talk to some weird people.

Not particularly.

But I read things I don't need to know about, and watch
some TV. Some American TV exemplifies those attitudes,
e.g. contestants encouraged by The Orange Lord om his
TV programme.

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#470055

On 22/07/17 03:32, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 4:02:52 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
>> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
>
>>> Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
>>> but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
>>> calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
>
>> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something
>> you won't do?
>
> Because a functional member of society may have to INTERACT with
> random parts of the world around them.    Recall the 'managers' at NASA who
> evaluated technical recommendations, and sent Challenger
> into the sky where it became a fireball.  They made a decision on
> a matter outside their knowledge.   They didn't intend to.
> That wasn't planned that way, it just happened.
>
> Chernobyl, same story.
>
> Water supply in Flint, MI, same story.
>
> A good liberal education doesn't always hit the target, but a non-education
> always misses.

Good answers.

Mind you, many people in this group are also more
than willing to make strong definite pronouncements
on subjects that are outside their expertise.

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#470066

Tom Gardner wrote on 7/22/2017 4:41 AM:
>
> Mind you, many people in this group are also more
> than willing to make strong definite pronouncements
> on subjects that are outside their expertise.

Lol, you have my vote for understatement of the year!

-- 

Rick C

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#470339

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 1:02:52 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote:
> Tom Gardner wrote on 7/21/2017 6:57 PM:
> > On 21/07/17 19:58, John Larkin wrote:
> >> It's important to understand, to feel, the basic concepts: algebra,
> >> trig, polynomials, circuit theory, signals-and-systems, physics,
> >> thermo, maybe some optics. It's not necessary any more to grind out
> >> solutions by hand.
> >>
> >> Thet's why education should be less abstract, more related to the real
> >> world. When I took EE classes, stuff meant a lot more to me than it
> >> did to the other guys, because my amateur experience with electronics
> >> connected the theory to actual circuits.
> >
> > Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is
> > is an interesting question.
> >
> > Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...
> >
> > Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication
> > and division by hand?
> > Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication
> > and division by hand?
> >
> > I learned both by rote. God it was tedious, and arguably a
> > waste of life, but there was little alternative.
> > (Fortunately pi^2=g=10)
> >
> > Personally I don't think they should have to do it by hand,
> > but they should know how to do it by hand - but use a
> > calculator (correctly[1]) for day-to-day calculations.
> 
> Can you justify this need?  Why is it important to know how to do something 
> you won't do?
> 
> 
> > That may be coloured by my having twice in my career
> > to develop arithmetic algorithms for computers, because
> > no libraries were available.

That's my experience too. Getting digital logic (ECL) to do arithmetic fast does require a clear understanding of exactly what you are trying to do, including overflow, underflow and rounding errors.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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#470000

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 23:57:47 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/07/17 19:58, John Larkin wrote:
>> It's important to understand, to feel, the basic concepts: algebra,
>> trig, polynomials, circuit theory, signals-and-systems, physics,
>> thermo, maybe some optics. It's not necessary any more to grind out
>> solutions by hand.
>>
>> Thet's why education should be less abstract, more related to the real
>> world. When I took EE classes, stuff meant a lot more to me than it
>> did to the other guys, because my amateur experience with electronics
>> connected the theory to actual circuits.
>
>Clearly there is a balance to be had. Where that balance is
>is an interesting question.
>
>Let's draw an analogy with arithmetic...
>
>Should kids be expected to be able to do long multiplication
>and division by hand?
>Should kids be expected to know how to do long multiplication
>and division by hand?

I don't know if I can still do multiplication. I'm pretty sure I can't
do long division.

But I can do deconvolution.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqpldbkq2awdeml/TDR_Decon_demo.jpg?raw=1


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#469947

dcaster@krl.org wrote on 7/21/2017 2:48 PM:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 11:30:25 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>
>>
>> Most people will never use algebra in their lives, and some people
>> just don't get it, so it doesn't make sense for everyone to have to
>> study it. Most people would benefit from a course in practical
>> arithmetic and measurement and finance.
>>
>> Double that for calculus. I think I have taken one symbolic integral
>> in my engineering career, and have used Spice for that calculation
>> since.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
>
> I never used calculus in engineering,  But the concepts of first   and second derivative were useful.   Not only in control circuits but also in investing.  Could have used a course in " math concepts ".

I've had to use calculus before.  I may not have calculated numbers very 
often, but knowing the form of the solution can say a lot.  Often I just 
want to know how things scale.

-- 

Rick C

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