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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #461231 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-05-22 03:02 -0500 |
| Last post | 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 140 — 18 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.electronics.design
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 03:02 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 03:51 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:26 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 21:23 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-23 14:07 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-23 12:00 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:48 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-23 16:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 17:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 17:55 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:48 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:39 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-28 16:02 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:46 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:56 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:43 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-23 03:36 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 07:31 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 20:02 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:50 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-22 06:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 07:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:21 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-23 00:07 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-25 10:40 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-25 18:03 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 14:41 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-26 09:07 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 08:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 10:08 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 12:15 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 12:29 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 13:41 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 16:21 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 19:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 19:09 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:58 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:13 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 05:51 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:11 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 10:12 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:25 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 12:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:57 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 21:14 +0100
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 19:24 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 07:50 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:55 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 17:57 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 19:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 20:15 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:04 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:32 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:29 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:46 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 07:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:34 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:44 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:49 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:59 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 10:36 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 10:58 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:07 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:06 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-28 13:44 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:49 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:10 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 16:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-28 19:37 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 18:41 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 00:36 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 05:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-29 07:50 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-30 07:44 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-29 18:33 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:25 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:31 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:32 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-30 17:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 17:33 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 18:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 22:04 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:11 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:27 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:39 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:31 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:50 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:34 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-31 15:50 +0100
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:38 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 21:36 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-31 16:01 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:46 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 21:56 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 05:01 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:03 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:09 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:23 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:30 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:21 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-05-31 17:00 +0200
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:40 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:49 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:30 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 15:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 16:23 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:03 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-30 23:27 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:33 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:10 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 08:11 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:53 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 08:06 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:13 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 16:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 09:37 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-31 13:50 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 12:12 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400
Page 7 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]
| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 17:49 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <bfeuicd9sqc7uqa9nufmemj8dcls726a2a@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462409 |
On 31 May 2017 05:01:47 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >rickman wrote... >> >> ONE stroke. The difference is ONE LINE SEGMENT! >> This entire conversation is about one line segment. > > Actually, two strokes, and worry about adding a dot. > > That never bothered me, heck, did it for 45 years. > To me it's more about the larger, cluttered symbol. > I like the simplicity. But I think we got carried > away in AoE III; there are places it'd have made > more sense. Plus, originally I wanted to make our > readers familiar with both styles. But if you change the style for no reason it leaves the reader trying to fathom a reason where there is none. A standard symbol is a good thing. Any standard.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 14:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ogffid0ec1@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #462083 |
John Larkin wrote...
>
> It would be best to include every mosfet property ...
> enhancement or depletion properties. ...
Now there's an issue, sometimes it's not obvious
which kind of part a designer has chosen, and I've
been forced to look up the listed part just to find
out. Quick, is a BSS126 enhancement or depletion?
How about a BSS138 or a BSS159?
--
Thanks,
- Win
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | pcdhobbs@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 15:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <25f3a797-66d5-49c5-b94b-31d801f0144b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462126 |
> Now there's an issue, sometimes it's not obvious > which kind of part a designer has chosen, and I've > been forced to look up the listed part just to find > out. The channel line is sometimes drawn dashed in the Little-endian symbol to indicate enhancement mode. Unfortunately due to the relative rarity of depletion MOSFETs, it doesn't seem to have caught on. Cheers Phil Hobbs
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 15:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <r9jmiclrsu8hhi6rci11cucve03v0eo2c8@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462130 |
On Sun, 28 May 2017 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>> Now there's an issue, sometimes it's not obvious
>> which kind of part a designer has chosen, and I've
>> been forced to look up the listed part just to find
>> out.
>
>The channel line is sometimes drawn dashed in the Little-endian symbol to indicate enhancement mode. Unfortunately due to the relative rarity of depletion MOSFETs, it doesn't seem to have caught on.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
"Standard" in the I/C world for a depletion MOS device is a double
line for the channel.
I delight when a foundry process has them... they're extremely useful
for kick-starting bandgaps, then disconnecting the mirror values from
dependency on VDD-VSS.
Unlike d/dt kick-starters depletion mode kick-starters always restart
properly on a brown-out.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 16:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1ummic5goibv9notrai6dmjdul8o4adj2u@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462131 |
On Sun, 28 May 2017 15:25:12 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 28 May 2017 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Now there's an issue, sometimes it's not obvious
>>> which kind of part a designer has chosen, and I've
>>> been forced to look up the listed part just to find
>>> out.
>>
>>The channel line is sometimes drawn dashed in the Little-endian symbol to indicate enhancement mode. Unfortunately due to the relative rarity of depletion MOSFETs, it doesn't seem to have caught on.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Phil Hobbs
>
>"Standard" in the I/C world for a depletion MOS device is a double
>line for the channel.
As in...
<http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/JT_PSpice_Symbols.pdf>
>
>I delight when a foundry process has them... they're extremely useful
>for kick-starting bandgaps, then disconnecting the mirror values from
>dependency on VDD-VSS.
>
>Unlike d/dt kick-starters depletion mode kick-starters always restart
>properly on a brown-out.
>
> ...Jim Thompson
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 08:03 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ogehl0$u11$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #462041 |
<pcdhobbs@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f3c21660-1ce9-4c0d-8509-010397e4e5c3@googlegroups.com... >> I like the insulated-gate-bipolar symbol because it's instantly, >>intuitively obvious which way the current will flow. I'm not so much >>interested in the semiconductor physics as feeling how the circuit >>works. > > The current flows as it does because of the device physics and bias > conditions, not because of a magic symbol. > The confusion is whether the reader will notice that the arrow terminal is indicating P or N channel. So which way does the current flow, as it does because of the device physics and bias conditions, _based on what the user purchased_ because of a magic symbol? :-) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-30 15:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <fsrric9om7oe97ntjn1dd6ddf6pkm8fm1c@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462062 |
On Sun, 28 May 2017 08:03:42 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: > ><pcdhobbs@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:f3c21660-1ce9-4c0d-8509-010397e4e5c3@googlegroups.com... >>> I like the insulated-gate-bipolar symbol because it's instantly, >>>intuitively obvious which way the current will flow. I'm not so much >>>interested in the semiconductor physics as feeling how the circuit >>>works. >> >> The current flows as it does because of the device physics and bias >> conditions, not because of a magic symbol. >> > >The confusion is whether the reader will notice that the arrow terminal is >indicating P or N channel. Such people will be equally confused by PNP and NPN transistors, and probably diodes too. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-30 23:27 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <oglgh5$v2v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #462349 |
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message news:fsrric9om7oe97ntjn1dd6ddf6pkm8fm1c@4ax.com... > Such people will be equally confused by PNP and NPN transistors, and > probably diodes too. "P --> N". Show me which of these types that violates. Admittedly, the collector is a hack, but it's better than the alternative: a transistor with two emitters. Which would be almost as useless a representation as the textbook "stack of bricks" diagram. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 12:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <og9l6r$rdq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #461804 |
Tim Williams wrote on 5/26/2017 10:07 AM:
> "Jan Panteltje" <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
>>>
>>> I generally use...
>>>
>>> <http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
>>
>> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert?
>
> What, you mean someone's arbitrary symbology is confusing? Imagine
> that! ;-)
>
> I think the circle symbol is better understood to mean "active low pin",
> rather than "negated". In that sense, a NOT gate is really a buffer
> that converts active-high to active-low logic.
Nope! In logic the circle means inversion, period. When looking at any
given part of a circuit you may or may not know if a signal is active
high or low, but you know the bubble inverts. BTW, we seldom call it a
"circle". It is called an "inversion bubble".
http://bfy.tw/C1MK
> It's perfectly reasonable to draw logic circuits with active low inputs
> or outputs, because those often arise in practice: a single transistor
> is either active high/low, or hi-Z. Activity is logically when it's
> "on", and so, if you build your circuit out of one polarity of
> transistors (such as the historical NMOS or TTL logic families), it's
> logical to use one state as "active". So of course, all the classic
> data buses used active-low signals, or NPN open collector ("wired-OR",
> and notice it's logical-OR in negative logic only) lines.
Huh? How is this related to the FET symbol?
> But even so, it's redundant, since the body connection is shown,
> defining the transistor as N or P. How could you ever /not/ have an
> "active low" PMOS? :)
>
> So, I don't object to the IC designers' notation; if body is left off
> (because it's almost always VDD or VSS), the circle serves to note
> polarity, and D/S distinction is meaningless for symmetrical devices, so
> no arrow is needed on them. It serves its purpose, without contravening
> existing understanding, and without making contradictory or confusing
> compromises. :)
So what about devices that aren't symmetric?
--
Rick C
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 10:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9jogiclorc78bit7nbg2o2q0bi1v8ou4hv@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461804 |
On Fri, 26 May 2017 09:07:26 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >"Jan Panteltje" <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org... >>>Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations? >>> >>>I generally use... >>> >>><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png> >> >> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert? > >What, you mean someone's arbitrary symbology is confusing? It's only confusing to you. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-27 06:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ogbmlh$qpt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #461835 |
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in message news:9jogiclorc78bit7nbg2o2q0bi1v8ou4hv@4ax.com... > It's only confusing to you. Larkin once again demonstrating willfull ignorance to the example provided in the OP. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-27 08:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461970 |
On Sat, 27 May 2017 06:10:57 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in message >news:9jogiclorc78bit7nbg2o2q0bi1v8ou4hv@4ax.com... >> It's only confusing to you. > >Larkin once again demonstrating willfull ignorance to the example provided >in the OP. > >Tim You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to describe anything. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 07:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ogeh1t$s6i$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #461991 |
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message news:3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com... > You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons > don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to > describe anything. So the electrons magically know which way 'round the source and drain are? Shall I build your circuit and the OP circuit and connect both to an unlimited current supply? Which one is right, John? :-) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 08:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7iplic1du84ag7etlp4s7v8nhqfpd9emqo@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462059 |
On Sun, 28 May 2017 07:53:31 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message >news:3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com... >> You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons >> don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to >> describe anything. > >So the electrons magically know which way 'round the source and drain are? > >Shall I build your circuit and the OP circuit and connect both to an >unlimited current supply? > >Which one is right, John? :-) > >Tim My circuits and PCBs are right, the first time around, because I spend my time checking and being careful, not twisting my undies over things that don't matter. Lots of my designs do have more than 7 transistors. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Amps/Amp.jpg -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-28 12:13 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ogespo$on$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #462072 |
John Larkin wrote on 5/28/2017 11:06 AM: > On Sun, 28 May 2017 07:53:31 -0500, "Tim Williams" > <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: > >> "John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message >> news:3l5jicdcuuhpfjui8r4pnp8mdc6mbt3n7f@4ax.com... >>> You are missing the big picture: It doesn't matter. The electrons >>> don't care what you drew on the schematic or what words you used to >>> describe anything. >> >> So the electrons magically know which way 'round the source and drain are? >> >> Shall I build your circuit and the OP circuit and connect both to an >> unlimited current supply? >> >> Which one is right, John? :-) >> >> Tim > > My circuits and PCBs are right, the first time around, because I spend > my time checking and being careful, not twisting my undies over things > that don't matter. Funny, I thought that was exactly what this thread was all about, twisting your undies over things that don't matter... one line segment in a schematic symbol. -- Rick C
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-27 16:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5t2kic9e2dnfpv2v92b0holippp03kuqma@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461690 |
On Thu, 25 May 2017 10:40:17 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
>
>I generally use...
>
><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
>
>Besides, symbols are only there for human consumption, All that
>matters is how the devices netlist so that simulators (or PCB
>software) properly perform.
>
> ...Jim Thompson
As in...
REFDES=MN?
PART=XFAB-NMOS
MODEL=MODN
TEMPLATE=M^@REFDES %d %g %s %b @MODEL L=@L W=@W AD={@DF*@W*2*@HDIF}
+ AS={@SF*@W*2*@HDIF} PD={@DF*2*(@W+2*@HDIF)} PS={@SF*2*(@W+2*@HDIF)}
+ NRD={@HDIF/@W} NRS={@HDIF/@W} M=@M
L=0.6u
W=20u
M=1
HDIF=0.8u
LVS=M^@REFDES %d %g %s %b @MODEL L=@L W=@W WTOTAL={@W*@M}
DF={(2*@M-(-1)**@M+1)/4/@M}
SF={(2*@M+(-1)**@M+3)/4/@M}
CHIPAREA=M^@REFDES %d %g %s %b @MODEL L=@L W=@W M= @M \n ;
CHIPAREA = {(((@M+1)*2+4)*@HDIF+@M*@L)*(@W+4*@HDIF)}
All this folderol is necessary because PSpice, and LTspice, don't
automatically estimate parasitics as do chip-dedicated simulators,
such as Cadence... so I do it myself ;-)
I also implement binning in a similar fashion.
The LVS template allows me to pass a netlist to my layout associate
without all the parasitic garbage.
The CHIPAREA template allows me to estimate chip area (once processed
by a tool developed by my son, Aaron).
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 09:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <jhrticl8kb4qe68f0plg9fcsp9v3ac41n3@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461231 |
On Mon, 22 May 2017 03:02:25 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>Proof in case:
>
>http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.com/files/legacyimages/ECN/Articles/CS-1109-Figure_02.jpg
>
>It's bad enough that AoE3 stooped to using those MOSFET symbols. (The only
>problem I can find with the tome! Why did it have to be such an important,
>and deceptive, problem!? Please Win, if you fix this in a reprint, I will
>send you the finest bottle of liquor I can find.)
>
[snip]
Give it up, Tim. Win has his head thoroughly stuffed in the sand and
his feet dug in, "Picking up steam now, maybe our book will push it a
bit."
So amuse yourself with the "designs" that will fail, or better yet,
flame, due to the symbol confusion.
To add further to the confusion...
<http://s3.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/wanlass-us3356858a.pdf >
See pages 3 and 4.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 13:50 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ogn336$7mt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #462448 |
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in message news:jhrticl8kb4qe68f0plg9fcsp9v3ac41n3@4ax.com... > To add further to the confusion... > > <http://s3.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/wanlass-us3356858a.pdf > > > See pages 3 and 4. Go figure, patent lawyers not caring for clarity or accuracy :-) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 12:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <v45uic9gvvacdn1gm6j22b14rdp3g8g2hj@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462465 |
On Wed, 31 May 2017 13:50:52 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
>message news:jhrticl8kb4qe68f0plg9fcsp9v3ac41n3@4ax.com...
>> To add further to the confusion...
>>
>> <http://s3.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/wanlass-us3356858a.pdf >
>>
>> See pages 3 and 4.
>
>Go figure, patent lawyers not caring for clarity or accuracy :-)
>
>Tim
That, or the inventor not proofing the application?
I had a recent event where the client (one of those jerks who insists
on being listed as an inventor, _first_ no less) proofed the
application rather than sending it to me first. The application was
denied because of a truly lousy explanation of the function :-(
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <opeuicdflq9ggo87kfv3h99s5omfllt0vf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462465 |
On Wed, 31 May 2017 13:50:52 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in >message news:jhrticl8kb4qe68f0plg9fcsp9v3ac41n3@4ax.com... >> To add further to the confusion... >> >> <http://s3.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/wanlass-us3356858a.pdf > >> >> See pages 3 and 4. > >Go figure, patent lawyers not caring for clarity or accuracy :-) The whole point of the "teachings" is obscurity. ;-)
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