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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #461231 > unrolled thread

Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols?

Started by"Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com>
First post2017-05-22 03:02 -0500
Last post2017-05-31 17:53 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 140 — 18 participants

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Contents

  Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 03:02 -0500
    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 03:51 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:26 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 21:23 -0500
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-23 14:07 +1000
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-23 12:00 -0400
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:48 +1000
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-23 16:53 -0700
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 17:22 -0700
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 17:55 -0700
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:48 -0700
                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:39 -0700
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-28 16:02 +1000
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:46 -0500
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:56 -0700
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:43 -0700
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:18 -0700
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-23 03:36 -0500
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 07:31 -0700
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 20:02 -0400
                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0700
                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:50 -0400
    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-22 06:25 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 07:13 -0700
    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:21 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-23 00:07 -0400
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:22 -0700
    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-25 10:40 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-25 18:03 +0000
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 14:41 -0400
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-26 09:07 -0500
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-26 14:24 +0000
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 08:38 -0700
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 10:08 -0700
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 12:15 -0700
                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 12:29 -0700
                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 13:41 -0700
                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 16:21 -0700
                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 19:05 -0700
                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 19:09 -0700
                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:58 -0700
                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:13 -0500
                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 05:51 -0700
                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:11 -0400
                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 10:12 -0700
                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:25 -0400
                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 12:13 -0700
                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:57 -0500
                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 21:14 +0100
                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 19:24 -0700
                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 07:50 +0000
                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:55 -0700
                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 17:57 +0000
                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 19:53 -0700
                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 20:15 -0700
                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:04 -0500
                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:32 -0700
                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:13 -0700
                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:29 -0700
                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:46 -0700
                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 07:19 -0700
                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:18 -0700
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:19 -0700
                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:34 -0700
                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:44 -0700
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:49 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:59 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 10:36 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 10:58 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:07 -0700
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:22 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:06 -0400
                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0700
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-28 13:44 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:49 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:05 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:10 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 16:22 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-28 19:37 -0400
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 18:41 -0700
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 00:36 -0400
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 05:22 -0700
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-29 07:50 -0700
                                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-30 07:44 +1000
                                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-29 18:33 -0400
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:25 +0000
                                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:31 +0000
                                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:32 +0000
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:14 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-30 17:05 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 17:33 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 18:53 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 22:04 -0400
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:11 -0400
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:27 -0400
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:39 -0400
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:25 -0700
                                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:31 -0700
                                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:50 -0700
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:34 -0400
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-31 15:50 +0100
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:38 -0400
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:19 -0700
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 21:36 -0700
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-31 16:01 +1000
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:46 -0400
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 21:56 -0400
                                                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 05:01 -0700
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:03 -0400
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:09 -0700
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:30 -0400
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:38 -0700
                                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:21 +0000
                                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-05-31 17:00 +0200
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:14 -0700
                                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:40 -0700
                                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:49 -0400
                                        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:30 -0700
                                          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:14 -0700
                                            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 15:25 -0700
                                              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 16:23 -0700
                                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:03 -0500
                                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:18 -0700
                                      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-30 23:27 -0500
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:33 -0400
          Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0700
            Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:10 -0500
              Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 08:11 -0700
                Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:53 -0500
                  Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 08:06 -0700
                    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:13 -0400
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 16:38 -0700
    Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 09:37 -0700
      Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-31 13:50 -0500
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 12:12 -0700
        Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400

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#462067

Frompcdhobbs@gmail.com
Date2017-05-28 06:46 -0700
Message-ID<a01ff797-fe6e-42ab-98c3-c8bbbdce26bb@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462053
> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to 
> actually show the diode as part of the symbol.  I've seen many
> cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been 
> supplemented with the diode.  This may be redundant,* but it 
> comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always 
> aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, 
> and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked.  Ahem, 
> would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?

As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;)

The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. 

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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#462071

FromWinfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
Date2017-05-28 07:19 -0700
Message-ID<ogem9d01pin@drn.newsguy.com>
In reply to#462067
pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...
>
> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to
> +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol
> but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.

 Yes, that's a good example.  But even here, it cries
 out to have the redundant diode explicitly shown.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#462082

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 09:18 -0700
Message-ID<fvtlicpulrhbsacco23ctkg2rkbf6tpqs8@4ax.com>
In reply to#462071
On 28 May 2017 07:19:25 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

>pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...
>>
>> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to
>> +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol
>> but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.
>
> Yes, that's a good example.  But even here, it cries
> out to have the redundant diode explicitly shown.

Required only for the cut and paste style of designer, who has no clue
how the devices actually work.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

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#462122

FromWinfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
Date2017-05-28 14:19 -0700
Message-ID<ogfet90dfp@drn.newsguy.com>
In reply to#462082
Jim Thompson wrote...
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...
>>>
>>> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to
>>> +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol
>>> but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.
>>
>> Yes, that's a good example.  But even here, it cries
>> out to have the redundant diode explicitly shown.
>
> Required only for the cut and paste style of designer,
> who has no clue how the devices actually work.

 Sheesh, there are plenty, they're called customers.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#462083

FromJohn Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>
Date2017-05-28 09:34 -0700
Message-ID<5mulic1f4t850kidbf094q27ijtul80drg@4ax.com>
In reply to#462067
On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

>> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to 
>> actually show the diode as part of the symbol.  I've seen many
>> cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been 
>> supplemented with the diode.  This may be redundant,* but it 
>> comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always 
>> aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, 
>> and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked.  Ahem, 
>> would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?
>
>As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;)
>
>The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. 

It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts.

It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic
symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or
avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement
or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting
any of those things.




-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#462084

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 09:44 -0700
Message-ID<nfvlich4cunqopgrac8k38tqv3bhgfk87a@4ax.com>
In reply to#462083
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to 
>>> actually show the diode as part of the symbol.  I've seen many
>>> cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been 
>>> supplemented with the diode.  This may be redundant,* but it 
>>> comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always 
>>> aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, 
>>> and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked.  Ahem, 
>>> would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?
>>
>>As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;)
>>
>>The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. 
>
>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts.
>
>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic
>symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or
>avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement
>or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting
>any of those things.

You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented?

That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

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#462086

FromJohn Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>
Date2017-05-28 09:49 -0700
Message-ID<vpvlich25v440otobju9dhmfe77mvaght6@4ax.com>
In reply to#462084
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to 
>>>> actually show the diode as part of the symbol.  I've seen many
>>>> cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been 
>>>> supplemented with the diode.  This may be redundant,* but it 
>>>> comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always 
>>>> aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol, 
>>>> and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked.  Ahem, 
>>>> would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?
>>>
>>>As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;)
>>>
>>>The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one. 
>>
>>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts.
>>
>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic
>>symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or
>>avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement
>>or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting
>>any of those things.
>
>You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented?

Sure, give each mosfet its own schematic sheet.

>
>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.

Do I have to give all the money back?


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#462088

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 09:59 -0700
Message-ID<de0mict22ekc152e65ndh7chji0020q770@4ax.com>
In reply to#462086
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

[snip]
>>
>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
>
>Do I have to give all the money back?

What's that supposed to mean?
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

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#462091

FromJohn Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>
Date2017-05-28 10:36 -0700
Message-ID<hf2micds7kt64anolh1as86f7ogkfvjtbk@4ax.com>
In reply to#462088
On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>>
>>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
>>
>>Do I have to give all the money back?
>
>What's that supposed to mean?
>		
>                                        ...Jim Thompson

It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to
maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and
I got paid. And I don't regret it.




-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#462096

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 10:58 -0700
Message-ID<ls3micljsq16mpduqrleadfuc930rglso8@4ax.com>
In reply to#462091
On Sun, 28 May 2017 10:36:39 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
>>>
>>>Do I have to give all the money back?
>>
>>What's that supposed to mean?
>>		
>>                                        ...Jim Thompson
>
>It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to
>maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and
>I got paid. And I don't regret it.

I'm happy for you >:-}
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

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#462100

Fromwhit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
Date2017-05-28 12:07 -0700
Message-ID<4506010a-e065-4090-8a37-46e18390a493@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462091
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 10:36:47 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin
> ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
> >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >>>
> >>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
> >>
> >>Do I have to give all the money back?
> >
> >What's that supposed to mean?

> It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to
> maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and
> I got paid. And I don't regret it.

But, most of us are upset if we have to walk around with a sausage stuck
to our nose.   It's not a suitable way to present oneself.   Nor is 'source-as-diode'
a proper representation;  it, too, gets in the way.

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#462112

FromJohn Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>
Date2017-05-28 13:22 -0700
Message-ID<d8cmic98s5eviie1n20hbuq3ibf6m648ku@4ax.com>
In reply to#462100
On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:07:35 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 10:36:47 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:59:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:49:40 -0700, John Larkin
>> ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
>> >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >>>
>> >>>That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
>> >>
>> >>Do I have to give all the money back?
>> >
>> >What's that supposed to mean?
>
>> It means that I've designed about $300e6 worth of gear, critical to
>> maybe $60e9 of process, using my mosfet symbol, and it all worked, and
>> I got paid. And I don't regret it.
>
>But, most of us are upset if we have to walk around with a sausage stuck
>to our nose.   It's not a suitable way to present oneself.   Nor is 'source-as-diode'
>a proper representation;  it, too, gets in the way.

Proper? Are you the Miss Manners of electronic design?

A lot of gear has been sold, and a lot of books published, using the
simplified mosfet symbol.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#462089

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-05-28 13:06 -0400
Message-ID<ogevrm$b9l$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#462086
John Larkin wrote on 5/28/2017 12:49 PM:
> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:43 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 28 May 2017 09:34:11 -0700, John Larkin
>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 May 2017 06:46:18 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>  If the substrate diode comes into play, it's more useful to
>>>>>  actually show the diode as part of the symbol.  I've seen many
>>>>>  cases where the full-fledged classic MOSFET symbol has been
>>>>>  supplemented with the diode.  This may be redundant,* but it
>>>>>  comes about because the designer knows that many aren't always
>>>>>  aware of the diode aspect of the substrate part of the symbol,
>>>>>  and he wants to be sure diode action is not overlooked.  Ahem,
>>>>>  would right-thinking Little-Endians eschew showing the diode?
>>>>
>>>> As you say, it's redundant (as well as ugly). There are left-deviationists as well as right-deviationists. ;)
>>>>
>>>> The PMOS polarity-protection circuit (gate to ground, drain to +VDD, source to load) is perfectly clear using the correct symbol but opaque using the shuffling, heel-dragging Big Endian one.
>>>
>>> It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts.
>>>
>>> It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic
>>> symbol: gate protection zeners, gate series resistance, normal or
>>> avalanche-rated reverse diodes, capacitances, inductances, enhancement
>>> or depletion properties. You don't want to take the risk of forgetting
>>> any of those things.
>>
>> You don't want the device's terminal properties properly represented?
>
> Sure, give each mosfet its own schematic sheet.
>
>>
>> That "diode" representation for the source is just ghastly.
>
> Do I have to give all the money back?

Who *is* this silly person?

-- 

Rick C

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#462101

Frompcdhobbs@gmail.com
Date2017-05-28 12:26 -0700
Message-ID<f7e8716c-5185-4a18-b7c4-d607d7f105ea@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462083
>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. 

I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.  

>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic 
>symbol: 

Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;)

You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. 

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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#462110

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Message-ID<okbmic1sqf4rp2in306ch09mp39obi20hg@4ax.com>
In reply to#462101
On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

>>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. 
>
>I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.  
>
>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic 
>>symbol: 
>
>Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;)
>
>You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. 
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

As I previously posted...

"Besides, symbols are only there for human consumption,  All that
matters is how the devices netlist so that simulators (or PCB
software) properly perform."

So symbolize however it rings your chime.

Those of us who have to communicate with non-in-house layout
professionals will stick to the generally recognized symbol standards.

I note that the LTspice List has degenerated from professional level
circuit simulation issues down to virtually all posts being related to
that no one can figure out how to associate a Spice device model or
subcircuit with a symbol.

Tells me a lot about the current state of electrical engineering
"education" :-(

But they'll all (maybe) be able to paste the "Picking up steam now,
maybe our book will push it a bit." symbol >:-}
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

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#462111

FromJohn Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>
Date2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Message-ID<j5cmic5q6ojmkbr59foab9gnfgoapoj52v@4ax.com>
In reply to#462101
On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:

>>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. 
>
>I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.  
>
>>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic 
>>symbol: 
>
>Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;)
>
>You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. 
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

What is this endian thing about?


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#462115

FromLasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk>
Date2017-05-28 13:44 -0700
Message-ID<f8bb0d50-cbc7-4709-a89b-b3cc7c330791@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462111
Den søndag den 28. maj 2017 kl. 22.19.50 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. 
> >
> >I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.  
> >
> >>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic 
> >>symbol: 
> >
> >Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;)
> >
> >You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. 
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >Phil Hobbs
> 
> What is this endian thing about?
> 

I assume that it the discussion is about as silly as the original source 
of the term little-endian/big-endian

"the "endian" names were drawn from Jonathan Swift's 1726 satire, Gulliver's Travels, in which civil war erupts over whether the big end or the little end of a boiled egg is the proper end to crack open"



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#462116

FromJim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
Date2017-05-28 13:49 -0700
Message-ID<8sdmichnl38os8n88ruli3bhflotf3lfb2@4ax.com>
In reply to#462115
On Sun, 28 May 2017 13:44:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>Den søndag den 28. maj 2017 kl. 22.19.50 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
>> On Sun, 28 May 2017 12:26:14 -0700 (PDT), pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> >>It's perfectly clear to people who understand the parts. 
>> >
>> >I have no interest in legislating how anyone draws schematics, except maybe people who hypothetically might work for me. I'm sure your methods keep blunders under control. For myself, I'd never draw FETs like that, because the trivial extra time investment is repaid by ease of spotting cases of synapse failure, lock-up states, and so on.  
>> >
>> >>It would be best to include every mosfet property in every schematic 
>> >>symbol: 
>> >
>> >Sure--plus maybe a big zener to illustrate avalanche behaviour and a small tank of magic smoke. ;)
>> >
>> >You have to stop someplace--Big- and Little-Endians just disagree about exactly where. 
>> >
>> >Cheers
>> >
>> >Phil Hobbs
>> 
>> What is this endian thing about?
>> 
>
>I assume that it the discussion is about as silly as the original source 
>of the term little-endian/big-endian
>
>"the "endian" names were drawn from Jonathan Swift's 1726 satire, Gulliver's Travels, in which civil war erupts over whether the big end or the little end of a boiled egg is the proper end to crack open"
>
>
>

The "big endian" has the air pocket... devoid of a proper symbol >:-}
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

     Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.

"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness."  -James Barrie

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#462120

Frompcdhobbs@gmail.com
Date2017-05-28 14:05 -0700
Message-ID<bc3ab939-47d3-4413-88a8-9e4d9194dc08@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462115
>I assume that it the discussion is about as silly as the original source 
>of the term little-endian/big-endian 

Yup. I don't think it's a first-order issue, but I do have views about it. Thus a light touch 

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#462121

Frompcdhobbs@gmail.com
Date2017-05-28 14:10 -0700
Message-ID<fec3340d-0b6c-4b5e-9a9c-2f2a34d9a0f8@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#462120
>>I assume that it the discussion is about as silly as the original source 
>>of the term little-endian/big-endian 

>Yup. I don't think it's a first-order issue, but I do have views about it. Thus a light touch
seems to be the right answer. Swift was good at that. ("Comrade Snowball" is the Trotsky character from George Orwell's "Animal Farm".) 

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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