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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #461231 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-05-22 03:02 -0500 |
| Last post | 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 140 — 18 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.electronics.design
Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 03:02 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 03:51 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:26 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-22 21:23 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-23 14:07 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-23 12:00 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:48 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-23 16:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 17:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 17:55 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:48 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:39 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-28 16:02 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:46 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 11:56 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 12:43 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-23 03:36 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 07:31 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 20:02 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:50 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-22 06:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-22 07:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 08:21 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-23 00:07 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-22 21:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-25 10:40 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-25 18:03 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 14:41 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-26 09:07 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 08:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 10:08 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 12:15 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 12:29 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 13:41 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 16:21 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-26 19:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-26 19:09 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:58 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:13 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 05:51 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:11 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 10:12 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 13:25 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 12:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:57 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 21:14 +0100
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-27 19:24 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 07:50 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:55 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-28 17:57 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 19:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 20:15 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:04 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 21:32 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 04:13 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:29 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 06:46 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 07:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:34 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:44 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:49 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 09:59 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 10:36 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 10:58 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:07 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 13:06 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 12:26 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 13:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-28 13:44 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 13:49 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 14:10 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 16:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-28 19:37 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 18:41 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-29 00:36 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-29 05:22 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-29 07:50 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-30 07:44 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-29 18:33 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:25 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:31 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:32 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-30 17:05 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 17:33 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 18:53 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 22:04 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:11 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:27 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-31 10:39 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:31 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:50 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:34 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-31 15:50 +0100
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 22:38 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:19 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-30 21:36 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-31 16:01 +1000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:46 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-30 21:56 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 05:01 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:03 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:09 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:23 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 10:30 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-31 14:21 +0000
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-05-31 17:00 +0200
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 08:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-31 08:40 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:49 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-28 14:30 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-28 15:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 15:25 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 16:23 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 08:03 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-30 15:18 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-30 23:27 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:33 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-27 06:10 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-27 08:11 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-28 07:53 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 08:06 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-28 12:13 -0400
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 16:38 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 09:37 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-31 13:50 -0500
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-31 12:12 -0700
Re: Can we PLEASE stop using these shitty symbols? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-31 17:53 -0400
Page 2 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-23 21:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <tl1aictq2itcg5cis4u8lmstgpn9ksiofp@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461470 |
On Tue, 23 May 2017 20:02:10 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote: >On Tue, 23 May 2017 07:31:03 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >>On Tue, 23 May 2017 03:36:43 -0500, "Tim Williams" >><tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >> >>>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message >>>news:ced7ic5ns3ibkiq85nvij4s8n0t7u4uahs@4ax.com... >>>> Don't be a symbol nazi. >>>> >>> >>>I'll be whatever I want. This is my gripe thread, get your own. ;-) >>> >>>I don't see any rational argument against my rational argument, so I'm >>>taking that to mean that I've won, and sufficiently embarassed everyone* >>>away from submitting their opinions. >>> >>>*Not excluding myself, y'see, for I know how internet arguments go. :^) >>> >>> >>>> The Win-style symbol is clean and intuitive; you can feel the current >>>> flow. The fussy one has resolution problems even with CAD schematics. >>>> And it's ugly. >>> >>>1. Not intuitive. It's meaningless! >> >>Some people just lack intuition, I guess. >> >>> >>>What does the arrow mean? Diode? So it's shorting out the supply? >> >>It's the way the current flows. Like a bipolar. Or a diode. >> >> >>> >>>That's precisely the mistake my OP example made. How is that intuitive? >>> >>>2. You're really grasping at straws with this one. CAD workstations have >>>had sufficient resolution since, well, ever, as far as I know. More than >>>predating myself, let alone my career! >> >>We print schematics on B sized paper. This may help: >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper >> >> >> >> >>> >>>Even a crummy 100 DPI bitmap resolves them excellently: >>>https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Flyback_Snubber_Snippet.png >>>Fits quite nicely there, if I do say so myself. >> >>Ooh, ugly. >> >> >>> >>>Vector formats have been available for ages (I have Adobe Reader on my >>>Pentium machine, for god's sake). Any argument about finite resolution is >>>fully surpassed: we have _infinite_ resolution to draw with! >>> >>>This also looks fantastic: >>>https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/High%20Voltage%20Bridge.pdf >>>and yes, I did in fact modify the symbol for clarity: I left off the >>>junction dot, which is arguably redundant since it's a three-way junction. >>> >>>Nothing wrong with taking shortcuts, as long as it's not changing the >>>structure. >>> >>>I'm also partial to the inductor symbol that actually looks like a coil >>>instead of a resistor. But that depends on whose library you're looking at; >>>most are passable, but some are almost impossible to tell inductors and >>>resistors apart. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I bet you wouldn't like the way I draw schottky diodes, either. >>>> >>> >>>Don't you just use a triangle with a curly line? >> >>I draw a regular diode with a dot in the middle. That's the hot >>carrier. > >Is it red? > >FWIW, I like your symbols too. >> >> >>> >>>Again, what's the meaning? It's supposed to be a "long s", which, like the >>>integral symbol, abbreviates a word that starts with "S". >>> >>>Some use square curls. The square one is probably a relic of shitty CAD >>>and/or lazy library creators. This is a graphical decision, no worse than >>>using a square-shaped font for text (which is less readable, but it doesn't >>>change the text). >>> >>>As seen above, I'm not terribly picky with schottky diodes. A diode is a >>>diode, first of all; if it's a specific kind, that's better. But don't go >>>using a schottky symbol when you pick a zener, or vice versa. >>> >>>Likewise, a MOSFET is a MOSFET, a specific kind of transistor. (There >>>doesn't happen to be any "generic transistor" symbol, unlike with diodes.) >>> >>>It's not a JFET. (Which has square drawn wires and no arrows on the channel >>>side, because that's its structure.) >>> >>>It's not an IGBT. (Which I've drawn before in about that style, but with >>>diagonal C/E wires, because that's its structure.) >>> >>>If you're going to make something simple to draw, that doesn't mean >>>anything, you should draw a square and put "MOS" inside it. >>> >>>I mean, it works for the IEC. >> >>Do you use their logic symbols? >> >>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Logic-gate-nor-iec.png > >That's not so bad, quite like IBM's forty something years ago (when >the only printers were chain printers). Try their MSI logic symbols. >Yech! IBM used to draw a transistor as three stacked rectangles. Also printable on a line printer. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-24 18:50 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sq1cicpeihb45gkjqqo80pu1o3k9b6u50n@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461495 |
On Tue, 23 May 2017 21:07:49 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 23 May 2017 20:02:10 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 May 2017 07:31:03 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 23 May 2017 03:36:43 -0500, "Tim Williams"
>>><tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:ced7ic5ns3ibkiq85nvij4s8n0t7u4uahs@4ax.com...
>>>>> Don't be a symbol nazi.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'll be whatever I want. This is my gripe thread, get your own. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>I don't see any rational argument against my rational argument, so I'm
>>>>taking that to mean that I've won, and sufficiently embarassed everyone*
>>>>away from submitting their opinions.
>>>>
>>>>*Not excluding myself, y'see, for I know how internet arguments go. :^)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The Win-style symbol is clean and intuitive; you can feel the current
>>>>> flow. The fussy one has resolution problems even with CAD schematics.
>>>>> And it's ugly.
>>>>
>>>>1. Not intuitive. It's meaningless!
>>>
>>>Some people just lack intuition, I guess.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>What does the arrow mean? Diode? So it's shorting out the supply?
>>>
>>>It's the way the current flows. Like a bipolar. Or a diode.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's precisely the mistake my OP example made. How is that intuitive?
>>>>
>>>>2. You're really grasping at straws with this one. CAD workstations have
>>>>had sufficient resolution since, well, ever, as far as I know. More than
>>>>predating myself, let alone my career!
>>>
>>>We print schematics on B sized paper. This may help:
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Even a crummy 100 DPI bitmap resolves them excellently:
>>>>https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Flyback_Snubber_Snippet.png
>>>>Fits quite nicely there, if I do say so myself.
>>>
>>>Ooh, ugly.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Vector formats have been available for ages (I have Adobe Reader on my
>>>>Pentium machine, for god's sake). Any argument about finite resolution is
>>>>fully surpassed: we have _infinite_ resolution to draw with!
>>>>
>>>>This also looks fantastic:
>>>>https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/High%20Voltage%20Bridge.pdf
>>>>and yes, I did in fact modify the symbol for clarity: I left off the
>>>>junction dot, which is arguably redundant since it's a three-way junction.
>>>>
>>>>Nothing wrong with taking shortcuts, as long as it's not changing the
>>>>structure.
>>>>
>>>>I'm also partial to the inductor symbol that actually looks like a coil
>>>>instead of a resistor. But that depends on whose library you're looking at;
>>>>most are passable, but some are almost impossible to tell inductors and
>>>>resistors apart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I bet you wouldn't like the way I draw schottky diodes, either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Don't you just use a triangle with a curly line?
>>>
>>>I draw a regular diode with a dot in the middle. That's the hot
>>>carrier.
>>
>>Is it red?
>>
>>FWIW, I like your symbols too.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Again, what's the meaning? It's supposed to be a "long s", which, like the
>>>>integral symbol, abbreviates a word that starts with "S".
>>>>
>>>>Some use square curls. The square one is probably a relic of shitty CAD
>>>>and/or lazy library creators. This is a graphical decision, no worse than
>>>>using a square-shaped font for text (which is less readable, but it doesn't
>>>>change the text).
>>>>
>>>>As seen above, I'm not terribly picky with schottky diodes. A diode is a
>>>>diode, first of all; if it's a specific kind, that's better. But don't go
>>>>using a schottky symbol when you pick a zener, or vice versa.
>>>>
>>>>Likewise, a MOSFET is a MOSFET, a specific kind of transistor. (There
>>>>doesn't happen to be any "generic transistor" symbol, unlike with diodes.)
>>>>
>>>>It's not a JFET. (Which has square drawn wires and no arrows on the channel
>>>>side, because that's its structure.)
>>>>
>>>>It's not an IGBT. (Which I've drawn before in about that style, but with
>>>>diagonal C/E wires, because that's its structure.)
>>>>
>>>>If you're going to make something simple to draw, that doesn't mean
>>>>anything, you should draw a square and put "MOS" inside it.
>>>>
>>>>I mean, it works for the IEC.
>>>
>>>Do you use their logic symbols?
>>>
>>>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Logic-gate-nor-iec.png
>>
>>That's not so bad, quite like IBM's forty something years ago (when
>>the only printers were chain printers). Try their MSI logic symbols.
>>Yech!
>
>IBM used to draw a transistor as three stacked rectangles. Also
>printable on a line printer.
The official symbols had the three boxes with a fourth being an
isosceles triangle pointed inward or outward, marking the emitter.
These weren't printable on chain printers, though. The symbols for
logic diagrams (known as ALDs, or Automated Logic Drawings) were
different. Resistors and capacitors were square boxes, too. Made for
really readable analog schematics. ;-)
+---C-+ +---R-+ +---TR+
| | | | | C----
----+ |---- ----| |---- ----B |
| | | | | >----
| | | | | |
Polarized Resistor NPN
cap
+---A-+ +---O-+ +---?-+
----| | ----& | ---- |
| &---- | |----- | |----
----| | ----& | ---+ |
| | | | | |
NAND Negative OR Op Amp
(NAND) (don't remember
what the '?' is)
Inputs _always_ on the left and outputs on the right.
Having both the positive and negative logic symbols was nice.
Everywhere else I've done it, the other engineers look at me like I
have a third eye.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-22 06:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e9c5edec-3e54-4934-93a8-ecb8337ef5ba@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #461231 |
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 4:02:32 AM UTC-4, Tim Williams wrote: > Proof in case: > > http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.com/files/legacyimages/ECN/Articles/CS-1109-Figure_02.jpg > > It's bad enough that AoE3 stooped to using those MOSFET symbols. (The only > problem I can find with the tome! Why did it have to be such an important, > and deceptive, problem!? Please Win, if you fix this in a reprint, I will > send you the finest bottle of liquor I can find.) AoE3 is now the standard! I like that n-chan fet's now look like npn's. (It makes it easy for me to draw them correctly.) Get with the program, or go home. :^) (that's a joke.) George H. > > And now look at this. > > You know what's worst? (Maybe not. You can't tell! Because there's no > device that exists that can be described by that symbol!) > > The more common convention is to draw them like BJTs, where the arrow is > used to indicate the common terminal. In further analogy, the arrow is > usually outwards, for "NPN MOSFETs", as it were. > > Which means, by the "most common convention", this circuit is a direct short > from VCC to output to GND. > > This figure is wrong by the "most common convention". > > Except, if you try to read some meaning from those arrows, instead of > forcing some other meaning upon them: this circuit is "right", in that the > arrows show the direction of conventional current flow through the body > diode. > > Which IS what the little arrow in a normal MOSFET symbol means, in the first > place. And is why any symbol with an "antiparallel diode" is redundant*. > (*Except maybe "FETky" types -- I don't know.) > > It's almost like they... simply forgot to put the source connection in, and > draw the channel as enhancement mode (dashed). > > They could almost be forgiven for such an omission! > > Whereas, the "most common convention" symbol deserves no forgiveness; it is > only madness. > > I'd say "rant over", but it's not over until people actually realize that, > when they write things, you know, they're writing things that actually mean > something! The original MOSFET symbol is not just some random assemblage of > lines. The lines mean something! > > Ugh! > > Tim > > -- > Seven Transistor Labs, LLC > Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design > Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-22 07:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ofurmg09sj@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #461244 |
George Herold wrote...
>
> AoE3 is now the standard! I like that n-chan fet's now look
> like npn's. (It makes it easy for me to draw them correctly.)
> Get with the program, or go home. :^) (that's a joke.)
I certainly didn't devise the scheme, but I started
using it early on for the schematic sketches I was
making for AoE 3rd. I also used them exclusively
in my instrument designs at work. When it came
time to send the drawings in for drafting, I had
some second thoughts, and especially about their
preponderance; I had intended to keep more drawings
with the original symbol (we have some), to help
acquaint the kiddies with both types, but by then
Paul really liked them and we were stuck with them.
--
Thanks,
- Win
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-22 08:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5a06ich5euvhogg3lbkle5lpnt60shlec1@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461231 |
On Mon, 22 May 2017 03:02:25 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >Proof in case: > >http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.com/files/legacyimages/ECN/Articles/CS-1109-Figure_02.jpg > The symbols are fine, except that they got them backwards. That's the way we draw mosfets, like bipolars with insulated gates. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-23 00:07 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <WzOUA.35952$Cj6.27478@fx23.iad> |
| In reply to | #461259 |
On 05/22/2017 11:21 AM, John Larkin wrote: > On Mon, 22 May 2017 03:02:25 -0500, "Tim Williams" > <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: > >> Proof in case: >> >> http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.com/files/legacyimages/ECN/Articles/CS-1109-Figure_02.jpg >> > > The symbols are fine, except that they got them backwards. > > That's the way we draw mosfets, like bipolars with insulated gates. > > If things had worked out differently it was going to be required by executive order that all electrical engineers use this to represent N channel MOSFETS: <http://imgur.com/a/4VWRe> That's what I heard
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-22 21:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <p6e7icprrn6bck00lb3c2lnisdphfeslef@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461317 |
On Tue, 23 May 2017 00:07:17 -0400, bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote: >On 05/22/2017 11:21 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> On Mon, 22 May 2017 03:02:25 -0500, "Tim Williams" >> <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote: >> >>> Proof in case: >>> >>> http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.com/files/legacyimages/ECN/Articles/CS-1109-Figure_02.jpg >>> >> >> The symbols are fine, except that they got them backwards. >> >> That's the way we draw mosfets, like bipolars with insulated gates. >> >> > >If things had worked out differently it was going to be required by >executive order that all electrical engineers use this to represent N >channel MOSFETS: > ><http://imgur.com/a/4VWRe> > >That's what I heard But now it's the symbol for a termination. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-25 10:40 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ng5eic12cs7ucsq5jq569odd9cp0dsoq17@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461231 |
Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
I generally use...
<http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
Besides, symbols are only there for human consumption, All that
matters is how the devices netlist so that simulators (or PCB
software) properly perform.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-25 18:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #461690 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 25 May 2017 10:40:17 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in <ng5eic12cs7ucsq5jq569odd9cp0dsoq17@4ax.com>: >Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations? > >I generally use... > ><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-25 14:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <og78ap$mcg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #461699 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 5/25/2017 2:03 PM: > On a sunny day (Thu, 25 May 2017 10:40:17 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson > <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in > <ng5eic12cs7ucsq5jq569odd9cp0dsoq17@4ax.com>: > >> Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations? >> >> I generally use... >> >> <http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png> > > Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert? Yep, that's why it's there. -- Rick C
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 09:07 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <og9ckd$qvj$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #461699 |
"Jan Panteltje" <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
>>
>>I generally use...
>>
>><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
>
> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert?
What, you mean someone's arbitrary symbology is confusing? Imagine that!
;-)
I think the circle symbol is better understood to mean "active low pin",
rather than "negated". In that sense, a NOT gate is really a buffer that
converts active-high to active-low logic.
It's perfectly reasonable to draw logic circuits with active low inputs or
outputs, because those often arise in practice: a single transistor is
either active high/low, or hi-Z. Activity is logically when it's "on", and
so, if you build your circuit out of one polarity of transistors (such as
the historical NMOS or TTL logic families), it's logical to use one state as
"active". So of course, all the classic data buses used active-low signals,
or NPN open collector ("wired-OR", and notice it's logical-OR in negative
logic only) lines.
But even so, it's redundant, since the body connection is shown, defining
the transistor as N or P. How could you ever /not/ have an "active low"
PMOS? :)
So, I don't object to the IC designers' notation; if body is left off
(because it's almost always VDD or VSS), the circle serves to note polarity,
and D/S distinction is meaningless for symmetrical devices, so no arrow is
needed on them. It serves its purpose, without contravening existing
understanding, and without making contradictory or confusing compromises. :)
Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 14:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <og9dqo$qo4$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #461804 |
On a sunny day (Fri, 26 May 2017 09:07:26 -0500) it happened "Tim Williams"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote in <og9ckd$qvj$1@dont-email.me>:
>"Jan Panteltje" <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
>>>
>>>I generally use...
>>>
>>><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
>>
>> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert?
>
>What, you mean someone's arbitrary symbology is confusing? Imagine that!
>;-)
>
>I think the circle symbol is better understood to mean "active low pin",
>rather than "negated". In that sense, a NOT gate is really a buffer that
>converts active-high to active-low logic.
>
>It's perfectly reasonable to draw logic circuits with active low inputs or
>outputs, because those often arise in practice: a single transistor is
>either active high/low, or hi-Z. Activity is logically when it's "on", and
>so, if you build your circuit out of one polarity of transistors (such as
>the historical NMOS or TTL logic families), it's logical to use one state as
>"active". So of course, all the classic data buses used active-low signals,
>or NPN open collector ("wired-OR", and notice it's logical-OR in negative
>logic only) lines.
>
>But even so, it's redundant, since the body connection is shown, defining
>the transistor as N or P. How could you ever /not/ have an "active low"
>PMOS? :)
>
>So, I don't object to the IC designers' notation; if body is left off
>(because it's almost always VDD or VSS), the circle serves to note polarity,
>and D/S distinction is meaningless for symmetrical devices, so no arrow is
>needed on them. It serves its purpose, without contravening existing
>understanding, and without making contradictory or confusing compromises. :)
>
>Tim
Maybe I am too old for this, but I was thinking why not use a picture of a flower,
say red rose for NPN, yellow for Tex.. PNP, and 2 leafs for the wires,
one folded leaf to signal emitter,
THEN our circuit diagrams would look much nicer,
modern programs and printers have no problem with that.
My problem with the 'o' at the gate: it indicates an inverting inverter :-)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 08:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0gigichepviqb0efjf0a94fs1gi9h36rcb@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461804 |
On Fri, 26 May 2017 09:07:26 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
>"Jan Panteltje" <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:og76a8$1o61$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>Why the need for such inaccurate/klutzy symbol representations?
>>>
>>>I generally use...
>>>
>>><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/MOS_Symbol_Discussion_(SED).png>
>>
>> Why the circle / inverter symbol at the gates, don't these always invert?
>
>What, you mean someone's arbitrary symbology is confusing? Imagine that!
>;-)
>
>I think the circle symbol is better understood to mean "active low pin",
>rather than "negated". In that sense, a NOT gate is really a buffer that
>converts active-high to active-low logic.
>
>It's perfectly reasonable to draw logic circuits with active low inputs or
>outputs, because those often arise in practice: a single transistor is
>either active high/low, or hi-Z. Activity is logically when it's "on", and
>so, if you build your circuit out of one polarity of transistors (such as
>the historical NMOS or TTL logic families), it's logical to use one state as
>"active". So of course, all the classic data buses used active-low signals,
>or NPN open collector ("wired-OR", and notice it's logical-OR in negative
>logic only) lines.
>
>But even so, it's redundant, since the body connection is shown, defining
>the transistor as N or P. How could you ever /not/ have an "active low"
>PMOS? :)
You're only thinking logic, or hard switching.
Once upon a time all that CMOS was used for was for logic... and the
body diode wasn't shown at all, since they were _always_ connected to
VDD or VSS depending on device-type, and the circle was to indicate
PMOS as opposed to NMOS. I left it as a visual indicator for my own
benefit.
>
>So, I don't object to the IC designers' notation; if body is left off
>(because it's almost always VDD or VSS), the circle serves to note polarity,
>and D/S distinction is meaningless for symmetrical devices, so no arrow is
>needed on them. It serves its purpose, without contravening existing
>understanding, and without making contradictory or confusing compromises. :)
>
>Tim
As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in separate
wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well" processes,
allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well.
The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly suffice
for hackers >:-}
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 10:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <og9nef0114f@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #461813 |
Jim Thompson wrote...
>
> As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in
> separate wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well"
> processes, allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well.
>
> The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly
> suffice for hackers >:-}
If you're playing with the body substrate, full
symbols are called for. But I've seen plenty of
use of the simplified symbol in IC designs where
they all simply go to their respective rails.
--
Thanks,
- Win
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <progic5g282ml5lmdv8g1nbl7cjcsmful8@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461833 |
On 26 May 2017 10:08:31 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>
>> As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in
>> separate wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well"
>> processes, allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well.
>>
>> The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly
>> suffice for hackers >:-}
>
> If you're playing with the body substrate, full
> symbols are called for. But I've seen plenty of
> use of the simplified symbol in IC designs where
> they all simply go to their respective rails.
Working schematics, or datasheets? Examples?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 12:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <og9urs01k4r@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #461836 |
Jim Thompson wrote...
>
>On 26 May 2017 10:08:31 -0700, Winfield Hill
><hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>>
>>> As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in
>>> separate wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well"
>>> processes, allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well.
>>>
>>> The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly
>>> suffice for hackers >:-}
>>
>> If you're playing with the body substrate, full
>> symbols are called for. But I've seen plenty of
>> use of the simplified symbol in IC designs where
>> they all simply go to their respective rails.
>
> Working schematics, or datasheets? Examples?
Few of us have access to an IC engineer's actual
working schematics, so we're talking published
articles, datasheets, and similar materials.
--
Thanks,
- Win
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 12:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <if0hic5i0ohnopsv8cnoblr5vsqvkr9vlm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461855 |
On 26 May 2017 12:15:08 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>
>>On 26 May 2017 10:08:31 -0700, Winfield Hill
>><hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>>>
>>>> As soon as Analog CMOS appeared, PMOS body connections in
>>>> separate wells became common. Also we often have "dual-well"
>>>> processes, allowing arbitrary NMOS body connections as well.
>>>>
>>>> The NPN/PNP-like arrows are totally incorrect, but certainly
>>>> suffice for hackers >:-}
>>>
>>> If you're playing with the body substrate, full
>>> symbols are called for. But I've seen plenty of
>>> use of the simplified symbol in IC designs where
>>> they all simply go to their respective rails.
>>
>> Working schematics, or datasheets? Examples?
>
> Few of us have access to an IC engineer's actual
> working schematics, so we're talking published
> articles, datasheets, and similar materials.
I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet. Examples?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 13:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oga3tr01qp1@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #461859 |
Jim Thompson wrote...
>
> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet.
> Examples?
LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012
OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013
OPA192, rev e, Figure 63.
OPA197, Figure 50.
OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49.
SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs)
LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001
LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle
That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a
comparator. Just skinning the surface.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 16:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d2ehic9k6gc0bsdeoedm33stkhrcqgt470@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #461868 |
On 26 May 2017 13:41:31 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Jim Thompson wrote...
>>
>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet.
>> Examples?
>
> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012
> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013
> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63.
> OPA197, Figure 50.
> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49.
> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MSOFETs)
> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001
> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle
>
> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a
> comparator. Just skinning the surface.
OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard for the hackers >:-}
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
"It is not in doing what you like, but in liking what you do that
is the secret of happiness." -James Barrie
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-26 19:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ogamsl02ogd@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #461909 |
Jim Thompson wrote...
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>> Jim Thompson wrote...
>>>
>>> I've never seen that style of symbol on a datasheet.
>>> Examples?
>>
>> LP5907, rev l, section 7.2 Date: 2012
>> OPA192, rev a, Figure 43. Date: 2013
>> OPA192, rev e, Figure 63.
>> OPA197, Figure 50.
>> OPA2325, rev e, Figure 47, 49.
>> SM72295, rev e, front page (shows external MOSFETs)
>> LMV7235, NSC version, page 2. Date: 2001
>> LMV7235, rev n, section 8.2 Hah, with p-channel circle
>>
>> That's an LDO, some opamps, an H-bridge and a
>> comparator. Just skinning the surface.
>
> OK. Whatever rings your chime... non-standard
> for the hackers >:-}
Yep, TI is one massive 80-billion-dollar hacker.
I figured you'd blame Massachusetts liberals.
Standards evolve, Jim. Although I found a 2001
example (earlier ones no doubt exist), most were
within the last five years. Picking up steam
now, maybe our book will push it a bit. Also, no
more p-channel gate circles were seen after 2001.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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