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100KVDC, oil is a resistor

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  100KVDC, oil is a resistor Bill Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> - 2017-05-17 22:38 -0700
    Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-18 01:23 -0500
      Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> - 2017-05-18 14:18 -0400
      Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-19 05:21 +0000
    Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Aussie <aussie@none.com.au> - 2017-05-18 15:49 +0800
    Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-18 06:20 -0700
      Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> - 2017-05-18 15:32 -0400
        Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-18 12:43 -0700
          Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Bill Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> - 2017-05-18 17:46 -0700
            Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net> - 2017-05-18 18:26 -0700
              Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Bill Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> - 2017-05-20 02:25 -0700
            Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-19 06:04 -0700
              Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-19 20:13 -0400
              Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Bill Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> - 2017-05-20 02:20 -0700
                Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-20 08:27 -0700
                  Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 22:40 -0700
    Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-18 16:26 +0000
      Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-19 20:16 -0400
        Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-20 07:09 +0000
    Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-05-19 15:03 -0500
      Re: 100KVDC, oil is a resistor Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-05-19 22:47 -0500

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#460754 — 100KVDC, oil is a resistor

Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.

https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo


Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI

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#460757

Without checking the video, that doesn't sound surprising.  Lots of common 
oils contain detergents that absorb water (and keep it dispersed rather than 
settling out).

Good dielectric oil is probably treated with heat and vacuum, or something 
like that.

Tim

-- 
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com


"Bill Beaty" <billb@eskimo.com> wrote in message 
news:9282758f-195c-4c6b-8d1b-7b8351e02aea@googlegroups.com...
> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
>
> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
>
>
> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
> 

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#460820

In article <ofjee4$mm6$1@dont-email.me>,
 "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

> Without checking the video, that doesn't sound surprising.  Lots of common 
> oils contain detergents that absorb water (and keep it dispersed rather than 
> settling out).
> 
> Good dielectric oil is probably treated with heat and vacuum, or something 
> like that.
> 
> Tim

We certainly ran ours through a vacuum filter on its way back from the 
outside tank (assumed, probably correctly, to be filthy and damp) to the 
guts of the machine (big honking Marx, it made one heck of a bang.) How 
I do not miss working on its oily guts (it never really dripped dry - 
fortunately, there was only one major overhaul inside the tank while I 
worked there.) We'd also run the filter in circulation sometimes. 

We had a lot of super-spiffy water, too. Mostly used as the dielectric 
in huge stainless-steel coaxial lines. But as far as I recall that was 
all in the other lab that had a nice warm inside tank for the oil (but 
we still went through a bunch of drierite keeping moisture from getting 
in via the tank vent.)

-- 
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

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#460904

On 2017-05-18, Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
> Without checking the video, that doesn't sound surprising.  Lots of common 
> oils contain detergents that absorb water (and keep it dispersed rather than 
> settling out).

it's some crazy russian dude with hundereds(?) of kilovolts making the
oil move  with electrostatic forces (and the stream carries the charge
on its surface) 

It looked like a bottle of cooking oil.

-- 
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software 

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#460763

On 18-May-17 1:38 PM, Bill Beaty wrote:
> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
> 
> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
> 
> 
> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
> 

That aerial oil transfer is kind of cool.

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#460772

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:38:19 AM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
> 
> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
> 
Huh, I don't understand the Russian, But it looks like he's mostly 
just playing with a dielectric (oil) in a non-uniform E-field.

Any conduction looks like break down, or maybe a surface thing.  

George H.   
> 
> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI

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#460836

On Thu, 18 May 2017 06:20:35 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:38:19 AM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
>> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
>> 
>> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
>> 
>Huh, I don't understand the Russian, But it looks like he's mostly 
>just playing with a dielectric (oil) in a non-uniform E-field.
>
>Any conduction looks like break down, or maybe a surface thing.  
>
>George H.   
>> 
>> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
>> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI


electro static?  Looks like the Oil sticks to (-) electrons?

Cheers

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#460838

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 3:32:43 PM UTC-4, Martin Riddle wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2017 06:20:35 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:38:19 AM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
> >> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
> >> 
> >> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
> >> 
> >Huh, I don't understand the Russian, But it looks like he's mostly 
> >just playing with a dielectric (oil) in a non-uniform E-field.
> >
> >Any conduction looks like break down, or maybe a surface thing.  
> >
> >George H.   
> >> 
> >> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
> >> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
> 
> 
> electro static?  Looks like the Oil sticks to (-) electrons?

Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.  
But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air 
breakdown channel. (?) 

George H.      
> 
> Cheers

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#460880

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

> Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
> The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.  
> But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air 
> breakdown channel. (?) 

Need to try it in hard vacuum.   But first need 300KVDC supply!

Probably it's just caused by oil conductivity.  Field 
gradients only produce fluid humps, while actual fluid pumping 
requires some milliwatts and some electric current.   He could 
collect those oil streams in a Faraday Cup, to measure their 
average current.

Gigohms at kilovolts gives microamps of leakage: a current 
which easily could be transporting charged droplets (moving 
a microcoulomb of charged oil per second.)   To prevent the 
droplet-jets, the little streams would have to block the 
microamps by presenting a far higher resistance than mere 
gigohms.

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#460888

On 05/18/2017 05:46 PM, Bill Beaty wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
> 
>> Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
>> The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.
>> But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air
>> breakdown channel. (?)
> 
> Need to try it in hard vacuum.   But first need 300KVDC supply!
> 
> Probably it's just caused by oil conductivity.  Field
> gradients only produce fluid humps, while actual fluid pumping
> requires some milliwatts and some electric current.   He could
> collect those oil streams in a Faraday Cup, to measure their
> average current.
> 
> Gigohms at kilovolts gives microamps of leakage: a current
> which easily could be transporting charged droplets (moving
> a microcoulomb of charged oil per second.)   To prevent the
> droplet-jets, the little streams would have to block the
> microamps by presenting a far higher resistance than mere
> gigohms.
> 
> 
That's only 25,000 DieHards, how many hundred amps did you need? :-)

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#461031

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 6:26:54 PM UTC-7, Bill Martin wrote:
> On 05/18/2017 05:46 PM, Bill Beaty wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
> > 
> >> Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
> >> The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.
> >> But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air
> >> breakdown channel. (?)
> > 
> > Need to try it in hard vacuum.   But first need 300KVDC supply!
> > 
> > Probably it's just caused by oil conductivity.  Field
> > gradients only produce fluid humps, while actual fluid pumping
> > requires some milliwatts and some electric current.   He could
> > collect those oil streams in a Faraday Cup, to measure their
> > average current.
> > 
> > Gigohms at kilovolts gives microamps of leakage: a current
> > which easily could be transporting charged droplets (moving
> > a microcoulomb of charged oil per second.)   To prevent the
> > droplet-jets, the little streams would have to block the
> > microamps by presenting a far higher resistance than mere
> > gigohms.
> > 
> > 
> That's only 25,000 DieHards, how many hundred amps did you need? :-)

I had a giant box of 9V alkalines, all drawn down to 8V or so.   Years later I discovered that an hour on a bench supply at 50mA constant current will charge up a half-dead 9V battery to 10V.   Instead of 1800VDC worth, I coulda had 2.3KV

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#460915

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:46:24 PM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
> 
> > Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
> > The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.  
> > But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air 
> > breakdown channel. (?) 
> 
> Need to try it in hard vacuum.   But first need 300KVDC supply!
> 
> Probably it's just caused by oil conductivity.  Field 
> gradients only produce fluid humps, while actual fluid pumping 
> requires some milliwatts and some electric current.   He could 
> collect those oil streams in a Faraday Cup, to measure their 
> average current.
> 
> Gigohms at kilovolts gives microamps of leakage: a current 
> which easily could be transporting charged droplets (moving 
> a microcoulomb of charged oil per second.)   To prevent the 
> droplet-jets, the little streams would have to block the 
> microamps by presenting a far higher resistance than mere 
> gigohms.

Yeah I don't know.  As Jason says there will be charge on the surface.
(Those E-field lines have to terminate somewhere.)  
So I assume the little oil streams are conducting current also.  
I'm not sure how you'd tell if it's bulk vs a surface effect.  

George H. 

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#460995

On Fri, 19 May 2017 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:46:24 PM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 12:43:57 PM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
>> 
>> > Sure (maybe) a dielectric in a E-field gradient feels a force.
>> > The filaments of oil 'shooting' out of the glass is weird.  
>> > But maybe the oil is forming around an already existing air 
>> > breakdown channel. (?) 
>> 
>> Need to try it in hard vacuum.   But first need 300KVDC supply!
>> 
>> Probably it's just caused by oil conductivity.  Field 
>> gradients only produce fluid humps, while actual fluid pumping 
>> requires some milliwatts and some electric current.   He could 
>> collect those oil streams in a Faraday Cup, to measure their 
>> average current.
>> 
>> Gigohms at kilovolts gives microamps of leakage: a current 
>> which easily could be transporting charged droplets (moving 
>> a microcoulomb of charged oil per second.)   To prevent the 
>> droplet-jets, the little streams would have to block the 
>> microamps by presenting a far higher resistance than mere 
>> gigohms.
>
>Yeah I don't know.  As Jason says there will be charge on the surface.
>(Those E-field lines have to terminate somewhere.)  
>So I assume the little oil streams are conducting current also.  
>I'm not sure how you'd tell if it's bulk vs a surface effect.  
>
>George H. 

As the oil temperature increases it's insulating properties decrease.
You get small currents flowing, ua maybe depending upon the surface
area and distance. I don't know what oil that is, but diala AX will do
this. I've seen strange solutions used to solve this problem. (
Creapage is still a problem in oil too)

Cheers

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#461030

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 6:04:56 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:

> I'm not sure how you'd tell if it's bulk vs a surface effect.

Measure the nanosieverts with your Fluke 189? Then move some L-shape probes around under the surface?

Or, perhaps drip some aquadag or some fat-soluable dye into a big warm mug of oil, then see if sharp wires from 30KV supply, immersed in the oil, will produce fluid jets and push the dye-plumes around.

Oil isn't that great an insulator when compared to solid dielectrics.  The tiniest bit of ion contaminants will start flowing as electrolytic current. I imagine that's why oil-filled HV capacitors have such large "soakage" effect, and they self-recharge if not stored with a shorting bar.   The charge that flowed from plates into the oil, flows back to the plates again.

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#461041

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 5:20:27 AM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:
> On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 6:04:56 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure how you'd tell if it's bulk vs a surface effect.
> 
> Measure the nanosieverts with your Fluke 189? Then move some L-shape probes around under the surface?
> 
> Or, perhaps drip some aquadag or some fat-soluable dye into a big warm mug of oil, then see if sharp wires from 30KV supply, immersed in the oil, will produce fluid jets and push the dye-plumes around.
> 
> Oil isn't that great an insulator when compared to solid dielectrics.  The tiniest bit of ion contaminants will start flowing as electrolytic current. I imagine that's why oil-filled HV capacitors have such large "soakage" effect, and they self-recharge if not stored with a shorting bar.   The charge that flowed from plates into the oil, flows back to the plates again.

Hmm, I guess I just don't see how some small number of ions in the oil
can lead to the bulk streaming.  

If we knew the current and had some guess at the electric field, 
we could estimate the surface charge.  (From curvature of surface)
And compare that to the current.  

George H.

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#461103

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 8:27:18 AM UTC-7, George Herold wrote:
> On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 5:20:27 AM UTC-4, Bill Beaty wrote:

> > Oil isn't that great an insulator when compared to solid dielectrics.  The tiniest bit of ion contaminants will start flowing as electrolytic current.

> Hmm, I guess I just don't see how some small number of ions in the oil
> can lead to the bulk streaming.  

Must be because there aren't free electrons; if ion current flows at all, it takes whompin'
big non-ionized oil molecules along for the ride, by Van der Waals and/or viscosity.

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#460795

On a sunny day (Wed, 17 May 2017 22:38:15 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Bill Beaty
<billb@eskimo.com> wrote in
<9282758f-195c-4c6b-8d1b-7b8351e02aea@googlegroups.com>:

>https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI

:-)

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#460996

On Thu, 18 May 2017 16:26:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 17 May 2017 22:38:15 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Bill Beaty
><billb@eskimo.com> wrote in
><9282758f-195c-4c6b-8d1b-7b8351e02aea@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
>
>:-)

Is he still alive?

Cheers

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#461018

On a sunny day (Fri, 19 May 2017 20:16:20 -0400) it happened Martin Riddle
<martin_ridd@verizon.net> wrote in
<3m2vhct199fkus9imipn3n2fjfje371hu1@4ax.com>:

>On Thu, 18 May 2017 16:26:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Wed, 17 May 2017 22:38:15 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Bill Beaty
>><billb@eskimo.com> wrote in
>><9282758f-195c-4c6b-8d1b-7b8351e02aea@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>>https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
>>
>>:-)
>
>Is he still alive?
>
>Cheers

Ask Schroeder ?

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#460974

Bill Beaty wrote:

> Heh, Kerosan finds that oil isn't quite as insulating as we believe.
> 
> https://youtu.be/8vxO1QbvmYo
> 
> 
> Also, GIANT SERIES-RESISTOR
> https://youtu.be/2dajGoY9tpI
If there's a single semiconductor device still operating in this guy's 
house, I'm quite surprised!  Geez, how many times has he "tazed" himself!

(Yeah, I know, somebody managed to video him.)

Jon

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