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tig hi freq

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  tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 14:17 +0000
    Re: tig hi freq George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-27 08:00 -0700
      Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 16:15 +0000
        Re: tig hi freq tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-27 09:40 -0700
        Re: tig hi freq Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-27 09:45 -0700
          Re: tig hi freq Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net> - 2017-03-27 10:24 -0700
            Re: tig hi freq Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 15:27 -0400
              Re: tig hi freq Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net> - 2017-03-31 14:42 -0700
        Re: tig hi freq "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-27 11:22 -0700
        Re: tig hi freq George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-27 11:37 -0700
      Re: tig hi freq Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 15:01 -0400
    Re: tig hi freq Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-03-27 12:19 -0500
      Re: tig hi freq "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-27 11:15 -0700
        Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 22:56 +0000
      Re: tig hi freq amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-27 14:54 -0500
      Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 22:55 +0000
    Re: tig hi freq Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-03-27 18:33 +0000
      Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 22:57 +0000
        Re: tig hi freq Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-28 18:07 +1100
          Re: tig hi freq Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 15:50 -0400
    Re: tig hi freq Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-27 14:02 -0500
      Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-27 23:07 +0000
        Re: tig hi freq Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-28 13:51 -0500
          Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-28 22:04 +0000
            Re: tig hi freq sroberts6328@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 06:55 -0700
              Re: tig hi freq sroberts6328@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 07:01 -0700
                Re: tig hi freq sroberts6328@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 07:15 -0700
                  Re: tig hi freq Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com> - 2017-03-29 15:05 +0000
      Re: tig hi freq Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-03-31 15:35 -0400

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#453870 — tig hi freq

sci.electronics.design
tig high freq

   Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.

Hul

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#453881

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
> sci.electronics.design
> tig high freq
> 
>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> 
> Hul

Work on your google-fu.  Does this help? My first hit.
https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/tig-frequency

George H. 

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#453884

George - thanks for looking. That article is about the frequency of the 
current that provides the power for welding aluminum. Apparantly aluminum 
can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.
   My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high 
frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance 
pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's 
of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.

Hul 

George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
> > sci.electronics.design
> > tig high freq
> > 
> >    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
> > freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
> > advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> > 
> > Hul

> Work on your google-fu.  Does this help? My first hit.
> https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/tig-frequency

> George H. 

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#453888

On Monday, 27 March 2017 17:15:37 UTC+1, Hul Tytus  wrote:
> George - thanks for looking. That article is about the frequency of the 
> current that provides the power for welding aluminum. Apparantly aluminum 
> can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.
>    My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high 
> frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance 
> pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's 
> of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.
> 
> Hul 
> 
> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
> > > sci.electronics.design
> > > tig high freq
> > > 
> > >    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
> > > freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
> > > advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> > > 
> > > Hul
> 
> > Work on your google-fu.  Does this help? My first hit.
> > https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/tig-frequency
> 
> > George H.

FWIW I sometimes find Google no use, but get useful results from other search engines.


NT

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#453891

Den mandag den 27. marts 2017 kl. 18.15.37 UTC+2 skrev Hul Tytus:
> George - thanks for looking. That article is about the frequency of the 
> current that provides the power for welding aluminum. Apparantly aluminum 
> can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.
>    My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high 
> frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance 
> pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's 
> of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.
> 

negative electrode puts most of the heat into the part instead of the 
electrode but that doesn't work for aluminium because you need some  
current flow the other way to clean the metal. 

I don't think there is any specif frequency for HF start, it is just a high voltage at a frequency that can be coupled to the welding voltage to start 
an arc instead of having to scratch start

there a diy versions made with old ignition coils

https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/start_box.jpg


     

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#453899

On 03/27/2017 09:45 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> Den mandag den 27. marts 2017 kl. 18.15.37 UTC+2 skrev Hul Tytus:
>> George - thanks for looking. That article is about the frequency of the
>> current that provides the power for welding aluminum. Apparantly aluminum
>> can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.
>>    My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high
>> frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance
>> pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's
>> of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.
>>
>
> negative electrode puts most of the heat into the part instead of the
> electrode but that doesn't work for aluminium because you need some
> current flow the other way to clean the metal.
>
> I don't think there is any specif frequency for HF start, it is just a high voltage at a frequency that can be coupled to the welding voltage to start
> an arc instead of having to scratch start
>
> there a diy versions made with old ignition coils
>
> https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/start_box.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I looked for the rest of the article on Hackaday, but didn't find it. Do 
you happen to have a URL for it?
TIA,
Bill M

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#454457

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:24:35 -0700, Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net>
wrote:


>I looked for the rest of the article on Hackaday, but didn't find it. Do 
>you happen to have a URL for it?

Don't mess with that Hack-A-Day junk.  The shock you save might be
your own.  Here is what you are looking for.

http://www.esabna.com/literature/archive/manual/f-9500%20-%20f-9999/f-9878-b_high-frequency_generators.pdf

For the transformer, a 9kV, 10ma center tapped neon sign transformer
works nicely.

You can make the coupling transformer based on the photos and diagram.
You do NOT want tight coupling as with that Hack-a-Day hack.  Tight
coupling will couple welding current back into the oscillator circuit,
damaging the transformer.

The spark gap will probably be the most difficult to fabricate.  The
electrodes are about a half inch in diameter, copper with a tungsten
allow face brazed on.  The face is ground very smooth and square.  The
idea is for the spark to dance all over the gap and not settle in on
one spot.  I suggest checking around and seeing if you can order the
gap assembly as a spare part and the prices for the various
manufacturers.  

Daytona MIG was a great little company that sold Italian-manufactured
products.  Seems they've gone out of business but there are some
companies supporting their products with consumables.  A gap should be
considered a consumable.  I also saw a forum post that said that NAPA
private labeled welders from the same Italian company.  Another place
to inquire.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com 
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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#454480

On 03/31/2017 12:27 PM, Neon John wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:24:35 -0700, Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I looked for the rest of the article on Hackaday, but didn't find it. Do
>> you happen to have a URL for it?
>
> Don't mess with that Hack-A-Day junk.  The shock you save might be
> your own.  Here is what you are looking for.
>
> http://www.esabna.com/literature/archive/manual/f-9500%20-%20f-9999/f-9878-b_high-frequency_generators.pdf
>
> For the transformer, a 9kV, 10ma center tapped neon sign transformer
> works nicely.
>
> You can make the coupling transformer based on the photos and diagram.
> You do NOT want tight coupling as with that Hack-a-Day hack.  Tight
> coupling will couple welding current back into the oscillator circuit,
> damaging the transformer.
>
> The spark gap will probably be the most difficult to fabricate.  The
> electrodes are about a half inch in diameter, copper with a tungsten
> allow face brazed on.  The face is ground very smooth and square.  The
> idea is for the spark to dance all over the gap and not settle in on
> one spot.  I suggest checking around and seeing if you can order the
> gap assembly as a spare part and the prices for the various
> manufacturers.
>
> Daytona MIG was a great little company that sold Italian-manufactured
> products.  Seems they've gone out of business but there are some
> companies supporting their products with consumables.  A gap should be
> considered a consumable.  I also saw a forum post that said that NAPA
> private labeled welders from the same Italian company.  Another place
> to inquire.
>
> John
>
> John DeArmond
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.tnduction.com
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> See website for email address
>
Thanks for the link, looks like a complete "old school" system one could 
actually build. I saw mention of the "Arc Pig" commercial unit & looked 
at that, they are using a slightly modified spark plug for the gap. 
Pretty simple to replace!

Bill

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#453904

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 12:15:37 PM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
 Apparantly aluminum 
> can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.

Actually aluminum can be welded with dc current.  But it is  not as easy.

                                      Dan


>    My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high 
> frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance 
> pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's 
> of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.
> 
> Hul 
> 

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#453907

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 12:15:37 PM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
> George - thanks for looking. That article is about the frequency of the 
> current that provides the power for welding aluminum. Apparantly aluminum 
> can't be effectively welded with a dc current as is the case with steel.
>    My present understanding for tig welding of steel is that a high 
> frequency low powered "starter" current establishes a low resistance 
> pathway for a high amperage dc current. It is this starter current that's 
> of interest and not the high amperage ac current used with aluminum.
> 
> Hul 

OK... As Tim W. said try rec.crafts.metalworking.  Or the group Dan mentioned. 
(I don't know that one.) 

George H. 
> 
> George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
> > > sci.electronics.design
> > > tig high freq
> > > 
> > >    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
> > > freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
> > > advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> > > 
> > > Hul
> 
> > Work on your google-fu.  Does this help? My first hit.
> > https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/tig-frequency
> 
> > George H.

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#454450

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 10:17:43 AM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:
>> sci.electronics.design
>> tig high freq
>> 
>>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the "high 
>> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's 
>> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
>> 
>> Hul
>
>Work on your google-fu.  Does this help? My first hit.
>https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/tig-frequency

That isn't what he asked.

With traditional TIG welders, the base band is either DC or 60 Hz AC,
depending on the setting.  The high frequency spark starting
oscillator outputs broad spectrum junk centered around 250kHz (at
least that's what my add-on AC adapter did.)

Modern solid state welders have everything setable.  Baseband
frequency (DC to about 400 Hz), baseband duty cycle, high frequency
intensity and frequency and whether it turns off after ignition (DC
welding) and a whole bunch of other parameters.

Check the Miller website and see if there are any manuals to be
downloaded.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com 
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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#453897

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

> sci.electronics.design tig high freq
> 
>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
>    "high
> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.

It's about 80% political crap these days, but if you're willing to spend 
some effort setting up your killfiles, this would be an excellent 
question for rec.crafts.metalworking.  That group has everything from 
grumpy old retired machinists (which is the doorway to the political 
crap, AFAIK) to working manufacturing engineering types.

Someone there will know.

-- 
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#453903

On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 1:19:18 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:

> It's about 80% political crap these days, but if you're willing to spend 
> some effort setting up your killfiles, this would be an excellent 
> question for rec.crafts.metalworking.  That group has everything from 
> grumpy old retired machinists (which is the doorway to the political 
> crap, AFAIK) to working manufacturing engineering types.
> 
> Someone there will know.
> 
> -- 
> Tim Wescott
> Control systems, embedded software and circuit design

Even better is sci.engr.joining.welding.  Ernie will know.  But he does not read the group every week.

                                      Dan 

> I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested
> http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#453923

Thanks Dan. I posted the question there.

Hul

dcaster@krl.org <dcaster@krl.org> wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 1:19:18 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:

> > It's about 80% political crap these days, but if you're willing to spend 
> > some effort setting up your killfiles, this would be an excellent 
> > question for rec.crafts.metalworking.  That group has everything from 
> > grumpy old retired machinists (which is the doorway to the political 
> > crap, AFAIK) to working manufacturing engineering types.
> > 
> > Someone there will know.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Tim Wescott
> > Control systems, embedded software and circuit design

> Even better is sci.engr.joining.welding.  Ernie will know.  But he does not read the group every week.

>                                       Dan 

> > I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested
> > http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#453914

On 3/27/2017 12:19 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:
>
>> sci.electronics.design tig high freq
>>
>>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
>>    "high
>> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
>> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
>
> It's about 80% political crap these days, but if you're willing to spend
> some effort setting up your killfiles, this would be an excellent
> question for rec.crafts.metalworking.  That group has everything from
> grumpy old retired machinists (which is the doorway to the political
> crap, AFAIK) to working manufacturing engineering types.
>
> Someone there will know.
>

   I would ask at > sci.engr.joining.welding <
  They do welding and it has no political fun!

                                     Mikek

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#453922

Good idea, Tim. Thanks.

Hul

Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

> > sci.electronics.design tig high freq
> > 
> >    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
> >    "high
> > freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
> > advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.

> It's about 80% political crap these days, but if you're willing to spend 
> some effort setting up your killfiles, this would be an excellent 
> question for rec.crafts.metalworking.  That group has everything from 
> grumpy old retired machinists (which is the doorway to the political 
> crap, AFAIK) to working manufacturing engineering types.

> Someone there will know.

> -- 
> Tim Wescott
> Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
> I'm looking for work!  See my website if you're interested
> http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#453906

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

> sci.electronics.design tig high freq
> 
>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
>    "high
> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> 
> Hul

Hire one for a day and measure its output characteristics for yourself.

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#453925

Next step for sure.

Hul

Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

> > sci.electronics.design tig high freq
> > 
> >    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
> >    "high
> > freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
> > advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
> > 
> > Hul

> Hire one for a day and measure its output characteristics for yourself.

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#453960

On 28/03/2017 09:57, Hul Tytus wrote:
> Next step for sure.
>
> Hul
>
> Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:17:40 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:
>
>>> sci.electronics.design tig high freq
>>>
>>>    Does anyone here know what the frequency & initial voltage is of the
>>>    "high
>>> freq ac" used in TIG welders? Google's offerings seem to favor client's
>>> advertising and "how to weld" documents, unfortunantly.
>>>
>>> Hul
>
>> Hire one for a day and measure its output characteristics for yourself.

Measuring the frequency may be easy as it can be done from a distance, 
but measuring the voltage is probably not so easy. It is something like 
a small tesla coil, but with a very stout secondary so that it won't 
overheat with the welding current also passing through it. Like a tesla 
coil, I would be unwilling to connect it to my good oscilloscope without 
a trustworthy high voltage probe rated for much higer voltages than I 
expect. A high voltage scope probe good to high frequencies is not 
trivial to build and not cheap to buy.

You could make an approximate measurement of the voltage by seeing how 
far away it can initiate a spark, but then again you could just skip any 
measurement and decide how far you want it to be able to initiate a 
spark and look up the voltage that you would need for that.

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#454460

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:07:12 +1100, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:


>You could make an approximate measurement of the voltage by seeing how 
>far away it can initiate a spark, but then again you could just skip any 
>measurement and decide how far you want it to be able to initiate a 
>spark and look up the voltage that you would need for that.

The answer is simple - one wants the lowest voltage that will initiate
the main welding arc within the welder's (human) capabilities.  No
higher voltage is desired - unless one likes getting RF burns through
he welding gloves!!!

The current is actually more important.  The high frequency discharge
should be intense enough that the main arc re strikes essentially
immediately upon the rise of each half of the 60 Hz main welding
voltage.  If the HF is inadequate then the main arc will sputter and
cause spatter.  The better add-on units and every unit I've ever seen
with HF built in has an intensity control.  While drawing an arc on
scrap, the control is turned up until the AC arc smooths out and quits
spattering.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com 
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

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