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ping Win, SiC fets

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  ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-02 15:17 -0700
    Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-02 15:36 -0700
      Re: ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-02 15:58 -0700
        Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-02 17:50 -0700
          Re: ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-02 18:02 -0700
            Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-02 18:34 -0700
              Re: ping Win, SiC fets TTman <pcw1.cad@ntlworld.com> - 2016-11-03 08:52 +0000
                Re: ping Win, SiC fets Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2016-11-03 09:24 +0000
                Re: ping Win, SiC fets Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2016-11-03 10:25 +0100
                  Re: ping Win, SiC fets John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2016-11-03 07:11 -0500
                    Re: ping Win, SiC fets Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2016-11-03 14:32 +0100
                      Re: ping Win, SiC fets Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2016-11-03 09:00 -0700
                      Re: ping Win, SiC fets John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2016-11-06 17:47 -0600
                Re: ping Win, SiC fets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2016-11-03 09:29 +0000
                  Re: ping Win, SiC fets TTman <pcw1.cad@ntlworld.com> - 2016-11-03 11:43 +0000
                    Re: ping Win, SiC fets Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2016-11-03 12:16 +0000
                Re: ping Win, SiC fets upsidedown@downunder.com - 2016-11-03 18:56 +0200
              Re: ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-03 08:59 -0700
                Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-03 10:40 -0700
                  Re: ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-03 11:02 -0700
                    Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-03 11:29 -0700
    Re: ping Win, SiC fets dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2016-11-02 15:42 -0700
      Re: ping Win, SiC fets John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-02 15:54 -0700
        Re: ping Win, SiC fets dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2016-11-02 17:10 -0700
          Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-02 17:53 -0700
        Re: ping Win, SiC fets Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-02 17:54 -0700
          Re: ping Win, SiC fets Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2016-11-03 15:38 +0000
            triacs and electronics engineering Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2016-11-03 10:46 -0700
              Re: triacs and electronics engineering Gunther Heiko Hagen <guntherxxx@quantserve.de> - 2016-11-03 18:01 +0000
                Re: triacs and electronics engineering John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2016-11-03 11:40 -0700
                Re: triacs and electronics engineering Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-11-03 13:56 -0500

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#433534 — ping Win, SiC fets

Hey, Win,

I think you were working with high-voltage SiC fets.

What sort of fall times can you get at 1KV or so?

I want to switch 6 or 7 KV to ground, fast, into a 50 ohm load, and
need to stack fets. The higher the fet voltage, the fewer I need to
stack and drive.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#433537

John Larkin wrote...
>
> Hey, Win,
>
> I think you were working with high-voltage SiC fets.
> What sort of fall times can you get at 1kV or so?

 You could easily get 10ns, faster if you work at it.
 I've slowed my 600V switch to 8ns to keep it smooth.

> I want to switch 6 or 7 kV to ground, fast, into a
> 50 ohm load, and need to stack fets.  The higher
> the fet voltage, the fewer I need to stack and drive.

 Also, 7kV and 50 ohms, with 50-ohm cable, means a
 current of 70A.  Switching that much current is one
 thing, but trying to do it fast means inductive
 voltage drops, V = L di/dt, will be a killer.  You
 can work to keep inductance under control with one
 MOSFET and a ground plane, etc., but when you put
 them in series, low-inductance paths go to hell.

 Dunno, John, that's a very serious game to play. 
 Behlke does it, but they stick to slower speeds.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#433542

On 2 Nov 2016 15:36:02 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote...
>>
>> Hey, Win,
>>
>> I think you were working with high-voltage SiC fets.
>> What sort of fall times can you get at 1kV or so?
>
> You could easily get 10ns, faster if you work at it.
> I've slowed my 600V switch to 8ns to keep it smooth.
>
>> I want to switch 6 or 7 kV to ground, fast, into a
>> 50 ohm load, and need to stack fets.  The higher
>> the fet voltage, the fewer I need to stack and drive.
>
> Also, 7kV and 50 ohms, with 50-ohm cable, means a
> current of 70A.

Well, actually, 140 amps.

  Switching that much current is one
> thing, but trying to do it fast means inductive
> voltage drops, V = L di/dt, will be a killer.  You
> can work to keep inductance under control with one
> MOSFET and a ground plane, etc., but when you put
> them in series, low-inductance paths go to hell.
>
> Dunno, John, that's a very serious game to play. 
> Behlke does it, but they stick to slower speeds.

Of course it will be hard to do! But it could be worth a lot.

I might have to use the fabulously expensive Ixys RF planar mosfets to
keep the inductances down. Maybe even a couple stacks in parallel.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#433553

John Larkin wrote...
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I think you were working with high-voltage SiC fets.
>>> What sort of fall times can you get at 1kV or so?
>>
>>> I want to switch 6 or 7 kV to ground, fast, into a
>>> 50 ohm load, and need to stack fets.  The higher
>>> the fet voltage, the fewer I need to stack and drive.
>>
>> Also, 7kV and 50 ohms, with 50-ohm cable, means a
>> current of 70A.
>
> Well, actually, 140 amps.

 You need to source the (presumable short) 50-ohm coax
 cable with a 50-ohm back-terminating resistor.  That
 means the switched load is 100 ohms, not 50 ohms.  At
 the far end of coax you see full voltage, as the pulse
 arrives.  The 2x reflected signal goes back to the
 source resistor and stops the high current draw.  But
 to insure the fast risetime, you need to source the
 70A current into 100 ohms, with your desired risetime.
 That's bad enough!!


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#433556

On 2 Nov 2016 17:50:16 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote...
>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>
>>>> I think you were working with high-voltage SiC fets.
>>>> What sort of fall times can you get at 1kV or so?
>>>
>>>> I want to switch 6 or 7 kV to ground, fast, into a
>>>> 50 ohm load, and need to stack fets.  The higher
>>>> the fet voltage, the fewer I need to stack and drive.
>>>
>>> Also, 7kV and 50 ohms, with 50-ohm cable, means a
>>> current of 70A.
>>
>> Well, actually, 140 amps.
>
> You need to source the (presumable short) 50-ohm coax
> cable with a 50-ohm back-terminating resistor.

I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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#433561

John Larkin wrote...
>
> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.

 OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
 better, I suggest you forgattabout it.

 BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#433599

On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
> John Larkin wrote...
>>
>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>
>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>
>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>
>
Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#433600

On 03/11/2016 08:52, TTman wrote:
> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>
>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>
>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>
> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.

K is already taken for SI temperature in Kelvin

(except in backwaters that still use F for Fahrenheit)

k = 10^3 is the exception that proves the rule.

-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

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#433601

On 2016-11-03 09:52, TTman wrote:
> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>
>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>
>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>
>>
> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.

Well, 'k' is an exception, as are 'h' and 'da'.
Look up 'SI multiplier prefixes'.

Why, oh why, don't we see calculators, spreadsheet programs,
numerical programs, etc., etc., accept multiplier prefixes?
Spice does it, although it *still* gets 'M' wrong. Gnuplot
has some clumsy support for it too, but that's about all I
know of.

Jeroen Belleman

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#433611

On 11/3/2016 4:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2016-11-03 09:52, TTman wrote:
>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>
>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>
>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>
>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>
>>>
>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>
> Well, 'k' is an exception, as are 'h' and 'da'.
> Look up 'SI multiplier prefixes'.
>
> Why, oh why, don't we see calculators, spreadsheet programs,
> numerical programs, etc., etc., accept multiplier prefixes?
> Spice does it, although it *still* gets 'M' wrong. Gnuplot
> has some clumsy support for it too, but that's about all I
> know of.
>
> Jeroen Belleman
>

If you are referring to LTSpice, I think it accepts Meg as a multiplier. 
That may have something to do with how it discriminates milli from mega 
disregarding single-letter capitalization. But I think it must be Meg 
rather than meg.

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#433620

On 2016-11-03 13:11, John S wrote:
> On 11/3/2016 4:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> On 2016-11-03 09:52, TTman wrote:
>>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>>
>>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>>
>>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>>
>>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>>
>> Well, 'k' is an exception, as are 'h' and 'da'.
>> Look up 'SI multiplier prefixes'.
>>
>> Why, oh why, don't we see calculators, spreadsheet programs,
>> numerical programs, etc., etc., accept multiplier prefixes?
>> Spice does it, although it *still* gets 'M' wrong. Gnuplot
>> has some clumsy support for it too, but that's about all I
>> know of.
>>
>> Jeroen Belleman
>>
>
> If you are referring to LTSpice, I think it accepts Meg as a multiplier.
> That may have something to do with how it discriminates milli from mega
> disregarding single-letter capitalization. But I think it must be Meg
> rather than meg.

Spice doesn't care about letter case. Meg or meg will work for
1e6. Spice dates from the time that many computers didn't even
have lower case. I'm old enough to remember that era. In this
upgrade-crazy world, one would think this could have been fixed
by now.

LTspice buffs pay attention now: A capacitor marked 1F is *not*
1 farad. A quirk of the same sort to catch the unwary.

Jeroen Belleman

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#433642

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:32:10 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 2016-11-03 13:11, John S wrote:
>> On 11/3/2016 4:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 2016-11-03 09:52, TTman wrote:
>>>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>>>
>>>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>>>
>>>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>>>
>>> Well, 'k' is an exception, as are 'h' and 'da'.
>>> Look up 'SI multiplier prefixes'.
>>>
>>> Why, oh why, don't we see calculators, spreadsheet programs,
>>> numerical programs, etc., etc., accept multiplier prefixes?
>>> Spice does it, although it *still* gets 'M' wrong. Gnuplot
>>> has some clumsy support for it too, but that's about all I
>>> know of.
>>>
>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>
>>
>> If you are referring to LTSpice, I think it accepts Meg as a multiplier.
>> That may have something to do with how it discriminates milli from mega
>> disregarding single-letter capitalization. But I think it must be Meg
>> rather than meg.
>
>Spice doesn't care about letter case. Meg or meg will work for
>1e6. Spice dates from the time that many computers didn't even
>have lower case. I'm old enough to remember that era. In this
>upgrade-crazy world, one would think this could have been fixed
>by now.
>
>LTspice buffs pay attention now: A capacitor marked 1F is *not*
>1 farad. A quirk of the same sort to catch the unwary.
>
>Jeroen Belleman

In Spice 1f == 1fF, 1u == 1us, etc, only the first letter is "seen".
		
                                        ...Jim Thompson
-- 
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142    Skype: skypeanalog |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

             I'm looking for work... see my website.

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#434101

On 11/3/2016 8:32 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 2016-11-03 13:11, John S wrote:
>> On 11/3/2016 4:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 2016-11-03 09:52, TTman wrote:
>>>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>>>
>>>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>>>
>>>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>>>
>>> Well, 'k' is an exception, as are 'h' and 'da'.
>>> Look up 'SI multiplier prefixes'.
>>>
>>> Why, oh why, don't we see calculators, spreadsheet programs,
>>> numerical programs, etc., etc., accept multiplier prefixes?
>>> Spice does it, although it *still* gets 'M' wrong. Gnuplot
>>> has some clumsy support for it too, but that's about all I
>>> know of.
>>>
>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>
>>
>> If you are referring to LTSpice, I think it accepts Meg as a multiplier.
>> That may have something to do with how it discriminates milli from mega
>> disregarding single-letter capitalization. But I think it must be Meg
>> rather than meg.
>
> Spice doesn't care about letter case. Meg or meg will work for
> 1e6. Spice dates from the time that many computers didn't even
> have lower case. I'm old enough to remember that era. In this
> upgrade-crazy world, one would think this could have been fixed
> by now.
>
> LTspice buffs pay attention now: A capacitor marked 1F is *not*
> 1 farad. A quirk of the same sort to catch the unwary.
>
> Jeroen Belleman

Correct. However, a capacitor marked as just 1 is interpreted as 1 farad.

And Jim is correct about meg or Meg being an appropriate multiplier.

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#433602

On 03/11/16 08:52, TTman wrote:
> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>
>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>
>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>
>>
> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.

Nope; kilo, hecto, deka

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html

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#433608

On 03/11/2016 09:29, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 03/11/16 08:52, TTman wrote:
>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>
>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>
>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>
>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>
>>>
>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>
> Nope; kilo, hecto, deka
>
> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html
>
Doh I've been doing it wrong for 50 years :(


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#433612

On 03/11/16 11:43, TTman wrote:
> On 03/11/2016 09:29, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 03/11/16 08:52, TTman wrote:
>>> On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>>
>>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>>
>>>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>>>
>>>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.
>>
>> Nope; kilo, hecto, deka
>>
>> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html
>>
> Doh I've been doing it wrong for 50 years :(

Blame the teachers and the standard of modern
education ;}

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#433658

On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 08:52:24 +0000, TTman <pcw1.cad@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On 03/11/2016 01:34, Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>
>>  OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>  better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>
>>  BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.
>>
>>
>Since when ? multipliers are upper case... dividers are lower case.

Sometimes between 1795 and 1960 at least as kilogram has been
officially been abbreviated as kg.

Inofficially in computing uppercase K has been used to mean 1024. Thus
4 KB means 4096 bytes.

 

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#433641

On 2 Nov 2016 18:34:56 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote...
>>
>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>
> OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
> better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>

Pulsers that make many kilovolts per nanosecond have been around for
decades. If it was going to be easy, the customer could get it
somewhere else.


> BTW, lower-case k for 7kV.

If you intend to correct all my spelling and grammar mistakes, you'll
need to publish another book. The Art of Grammar maybe.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

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#433672

John Larkin wrote...
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>
>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>
>> OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>> better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>
> Pulsers that make many kilovolts per
> nanosecond have been around for decades.

 kV and ns are bad, but doable I suppose.
 But 140 amps and ns, with MOSFETs, that's
 another matter.  140A/ns creates a voltage
 V = L di/dt = 700V of across 5nH.  Consider
 the FET's source lead inductance carrying
 this high dI/dt, and the safe, controlled
 10V Vgs you're trying to impose from gate
 to source.  Ouch.

 I'm doing 10A/5ns and having no problem.


> If it was going to be easy, the customer
> could get it somewhere else.

 Yep.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#433692

On 3 Nov 2016 10:40:29 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote...
>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>> John Larkin wrote...
>>>>
>>>> I need 140 amps. 7KV into 50 ohms.
>>>
>>> OK, John, if you're hoping for 10ns or
>>> better, I suggest you forgattabout it.
>>
>> Pulsers that make many kilovolts per
>> nanosecond have been around for decades.
>
> kV and ns are bad, but doable I suppose.
> But 140 amps and ns, with MOSFETs, that's
> another matter.  140A/ns creates a voltage
> V = L di/dt = 700V of across 5nH.  Consider
> the FET's source lead inductance carrying
> this high dI/dt, and the safe, controlled
> 10V Vgs you're trying to impose from gate
> to source.  Ouch.

The Ixys (old DEI) flat fets might work. Money might not matter here.

>
> I'm doing 10A/5ns and having no problem.

Less than two orders of magnitude away! I can probably reconfigure
some things, like driving 75 ohms and such, and get down to 70 amps
peak, now a mere factor of 7 from your case.

Can you reveal what you're using for gate drivers?

>
>
>> If it was going to be easy, the customer
>> could get it somewhere else.
>
> Yep.

-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

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