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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #453060 > unrolled thread
| Started by | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-03-22 10:18 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-03-24 09:04 -0700 |
| Articles | 9 on this page of 109 — 22 participants |
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ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 10:18 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Bill Martin <wwm@wwmartin.net> - 2017-03-22 10:32 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-22 11:23 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 14:28 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:35 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:15 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 14:31 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:44 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 16:22 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 18:37 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-22 22:25 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 20:06 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 21:06 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-23 13:13 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-22 19:56 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 20:24 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 21:07 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-22 22:54 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-23 04:50 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 13:24 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 17:11 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-22 16:17 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-22 15:36 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass gregz <zekor@comcast.net> - 2017-03-24 07:55 +0000
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-24 22:50 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 14:26 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:49 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 18:41 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2017-03-22 19:45 -0800
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-22 13:37 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 10:56 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-22 11:29 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:23 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-22 13:34 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 14:23 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 18:50 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-24 10:45 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-25 18:22 +1100
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-25 08:53 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-25 13:05 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-25 16:18 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-25 20:40 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 08:07 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-26 20:09 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 17:43 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-26 20:50 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-25 16:17 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-25 20:12 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 04:39 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-26 05:17 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 06:03 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-26 09:15 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 10:54 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-26 18:43 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-03-27 19:21 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-28 09:30 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-27 08:11 +1100
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-28 06:45 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-28 08:08 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-28 08:48 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 08:08 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-26 16:16 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Mikko OH2HVJ <mikko.syrjalahti@nospam.fi> - 2017-03-26 22:10 +0300
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-28 06:58 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-28 07:18 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-28 08:41 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-28 08:13 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-03-28 16:52 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-28 19:52 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-03-28 20:35 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 04:44 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 08:10 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 09:37 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 10:58 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-26 16:18 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 17:42 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-22 20:12 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 17:24 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-22 20:46 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 21:14 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-22 22:58 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-23 13:15 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-23 12:10 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 15:28 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-23 14:06 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 20:48 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-23 18:05 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-23 20:31 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 15:25 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-23 17:37 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 13:44 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Kevin Glover <kevinfglover@yahoo.com> - 2017-03-22 11:22 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-03-22 11:44 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 15:07 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-22 12:19 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 15:51 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-22 13:58 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 17:05 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 16:26 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 18:00 -0400
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:30 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-22 18:29 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 21:16 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Mikko OH2HVJ <mikko.syrjalahti@nospam.fi> - 2017-03-22 21:36 +0200
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-22 12:54 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-03-22 14:39 -0500
Re: ot drilling glass alan.yeager.2013@gmail.com - 2017-03-23 18:07 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-24 04:20 -0700
Re: ot drilling glass John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-03-24 09:04 -0700
Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]
| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 12:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4rj5dch6t9h0rb3aatc8s8eem2ri73g7jt@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #453090 |
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:44:15 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote: >On 2017/03/22 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> >> >> I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped >> inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. >> >> I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to >> use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil >> or water? >> >> > >Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry >day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the >glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, using >soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up under a >slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive pressure and >then seal up the remaining hole. > >Or drill two holes (top and bottom - process pointed out in other >responses) and vacuum out the moisture on a hot day, then seal the holes >with drops of glue. > >I am curious about the results as we have a couple of windows whose >seals have failed and was planning on replacing them... > >John I've drilled windows at home and up here in the mountains, and it seems to work fine. I prefer outside drill on an unproven theoretical basis, as long as the hole won't get rained on, but both in and out seem to work. Some windows have a powderey (titanium dioxide?) anti-UV coating inside. If that gets wet, it can streak and that can't be fixed. So drill sooner than later. Try it. You don't have much to lose. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 18:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4f293d23-41ea-4261-bfb6-1a344b462796@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #453103 |
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 3:30:37 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:44:15 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> > wrote: > > >On 2017/03/22 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote: > >> > >> > >> I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped > >> inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. > >> > >> I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to > >> use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil > >> or water? > >> > >> > > > >Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry > >day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the > >glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, using > >soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up under a > >slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive pressure and > >then seal up the remaining hole. > > > >Or drill two holes (top and bottom - process pointed out in other > >responses) and vacuum out the moisture on a hot day, then seal the holes > >with drops of glue. > > > >I am curious about the results as we have a couple of windows whose > >seals have failed and was planning on replacing them... > > > >John > > I've drilled windows at home and up here in the mountains, and it > seems to work fine. I prefer outside drill on an unproven theoretical > basis, as long as the hole won't get rained on, but both in and out > seem to work. I've got a streaky window in our bathroom, with some water/ condensation. I think I'd want the hole on the outside. On cold nights in the winter an inside hole would lead to frost.. more water. I guess in summer with AC you'd get water condensing the other way. (I don't have AC.) George H. > Some windows have a powderey (titanium dioxide?) anti-UV coating > inside. If that gets wet, it can streak and that can't be fixed. So > drill sooner than later. > > Try it. You don't have much to lose. > > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com > http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 21:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9ui6dctk8lpf6iu3t3v257niajshrrhbce@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #453165 |
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:29:09 -0700 (PDT), George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote: >On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 3:30:37 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:44:15 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> >> wrote: >> >> >On 2017/03/22 10:18 AM, John Larkin wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped >> >> inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. >> >> >> >> I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to >> >> use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil >> >> or water? >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry >> >day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the >> >glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, using >> >soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up under a >> >slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive pressure and >> >then seal up the remaining hole. >> > >> >Or drill two holes (top and bottom - process pointed out in other >> >responses) and vacuum out the moisture on a hot day, then seal the holes >> >with drops of glue. >> > >> >I am curious about the results as we have a couple of windows whose >> >seals have failed and was planning on replacing them... >> > >> >John >> >> I've drilled windows at home and up here in the mountains, and it >> seems to work fine. I prefer outside drill on an unproven theoretical >> basis, as long as the hole won't get rained on, but both in and out >> seem to work. >I've got a streaky window in our bathroom, with some water/ condensation. >I think I'd want the hole on the outside. On cold nights in the winter >an inside hole would lead to frost.. more water. That is my theory too. >I guess in summer with AC you'd get water condensing the other way. >(I don't have AC.) We don't have a/c either, which may simplify the situation. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Mikko OH2HVJ <mikko.syrjalahti@nospam.fi> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 21:36 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <m2wpbh3xyo.fsf@nospam.fi> |
| In reply to | #453090 |
John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes: > Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry > day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the > glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, > using soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up > under a slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive > pressure and then seal up the remaining hole. If it's an insulating glass unit, there will be dessicant material inside the spacer. Normal IGUs use butyl rubber sealant between the spacer and glass to keep air and moisture our and argon in. A few holes may get rid of the moisture for some time, but if there's a low emissivity coating inside, that may turn grey after some time. IGUs can't be fixed properly so that they would keep their thermal properties. But I think John lives in rather warm conditions, so that is probably not an issue. -- mikko
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 12:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4cl5dc55mi115a51cbddh55ucqsuvi6s5k@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #453107 |
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 21:36:47 +0200, Mikko OH2HVJ <mikko.syrjalahti@nospam.fi> wrote: >John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> writes: > >> Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry >> day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the >> glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, >> using soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up >> under a slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive >> pressure and then seal up the remaining hole. > >If it's an insulating glass unit, there will be dessicant material >inside the spacer. Normal IGUs use butyl rubber sealant between the >spacer and glass to keep air and moisture our and argon in. > >A few holes may get rid of the moisture for some time, but if there's a >low emissivity coating inside, that may turn grey after some time. > >IGUs can't be fixed properly so that they would keep their thermal >properties. But I think John lives in rather warm conditions, so that >is probably not an issue. I've done it in San Francisco (in a damp, coldish fog belt) and just did another one in Truckee, which is often (in the summer) the coldest city weather station in the USA. It can snow any day of the year here. Seems to work so far. The coatings get yukky if there's a lot of condensation pre-drill. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 14:39 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <Jv6dndjcw8cHT0_FnZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #453090 |
John Robertson wrote: > Why not take the double glass envelope out (if possible - on a hot dry > day) and drill through the seal? You could then gently pressurize the > glass (basketball filler tube through the seal perhaps?) and then, using > soapy water around the seals, find the leak(s) and seal them up under a > slight vacuum to suck in a silicon sealant. Slight positive pressure and > then seal up the remaining hole. The problem is the leaky spots have been leaking for some time, and the glass is dirty at that spot. I think the only real fix is to remove all the sealant, clean the edges of the glass with solvent and then re-seal them. Even better, the scheme I cooked up was to mask the windows and then sandblast the outer 1/4" to give the sealant more of a grip before reassembling the double pane and applying the sealer. Then, once the stuff has cured, poke hypodermic needles in and fill with Argon, then glue up the needle holes. Maybe even put the needles in before the sealant cures. But, that's a lot of work. I think any slap-dash attempts to seal the leaks will not create a long-term seal. Also, once the things have leaked for a while, there is all sorts of crud that develops on the inner surfaces of the panes, I'd want to get that clean, and that means taking the whole double-pane apart. Jon
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| From | alan.yeager.2013@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-23 18:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <65cc3926-dc11-4cb9-a9ad-a5630917e88c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #453060 |
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 1:18:55 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: > I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped > inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. > > I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to > use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil > or water? > > > -- > > John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc > > jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com > http://www.highlandtechnology.com Check around. Some window shops will send them back to the fsctory to have them opened, cleaned and re-filled with new gas. They then run them thru an oven to seal them back up again. Also check out their warranty and what it covers.
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 04:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4423f888-17c1-4690-b9e0-dc8b83ffa184@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #453060 |
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 17:18:55 UTC, John Larkin wrote: > I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped > inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. > > I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to > use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil > or water? Another thread in which most participants don't understand the physics, but are sure they do. As Mr. Larkin has found it is a permanent fix, and does not make a significant difference to their insulation. The one thing I would suggest is plugging the hole with a filter, eg a dryish mix of sand & epoxy, to keep bugs out. NT
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 09:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <qrgadc54mphst8ri9k1sgjcsk0niqpq2f0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #453364 |
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 04:20:59 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 17:18:55 UTC, John Larkin wrote: > >> I have some double-pane windows that are getting moisture trapped >> inside. I've found that drilling a little vent hole fixes that. >> >> I got some Amazon chinese diamond core drills. What's the best way to >> use these? Slow with a drill or fast with a Dremel? Lubricate with oil >> or water? > >Another thread in which most participants don't understand the physics, but are sure they do. As Mr. Larkin has found it is a permanent fix, and does not make a significant difference to their insulation. The one thing I would suggest is plugging the hole with a filter, eg a dryish mix of sand & epoxy, to keep bugs out. > > >NT Right. I have acquired one tiny spider already. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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