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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #460702 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-05-17 14:33 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-07-13 07:43 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 80 — 19 participants |
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5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-17 14:33 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-17 15:09 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:39 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-18 01:21 -0500
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:30 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers oldschool@tubes.com - 2017-05-18 08:34 -0400
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-18 10:07 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-18 10:53 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers speff <spehro@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 12:59 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 22:03 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-31 13:22 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 23:04 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-31 15:57 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 07:47 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 07:13 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:28 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:42 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:43 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 08:47 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 01:25 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 07:59 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:21 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 09:32 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 10:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-06-02 10:21 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 10:46 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 17:54 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:02 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-06-02 11:05 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 18:16 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 11:32 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 12:15 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 12:43 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 10:04 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 10:54 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-06-02 17:35 -0500
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 15:56 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-06-01 17:44 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:57 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-01 08:05 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 08:45 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 16:07 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 11:37 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:33 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:56 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-06-01 12:08 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib.bouaziz@gmail.com - 2017-06-01 04:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 07:15 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-18 20:08 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-19 00:03 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-05-31 10:48 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 21:50 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-31 12:57 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 22:10 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-01 13:09 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-01 23:17 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-01 14:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib.bouaziz@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:01 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 08:44 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:19 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 11:18 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 09:28 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:16 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 14:02 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 14:36 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 16:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 16:46 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-02 23:13 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 14:39 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-03 09:47 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 04:28 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-07 20:03 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-08 10:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-07-13 07:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Terry <respect__privacy@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 06:06 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:27 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-13 07:43 -0700
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 08:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e3d0jch7t94ndjl6q0g3j8r8m297vbh89l@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462557 |
On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 14:28:33 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in ><v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: > >>I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the >>signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple >>much power. > >True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. > > >>Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or >>whatever. >> >>I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly >>a square inch without a core. That's a guess. > >Oh much more, >100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, >like this: > http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG > >Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all. One of these one each side of a board http://tinyurl.com/yd7x3dbg http://tinyurl.com/y9gta7ox would be interesting. Resonate both. You could also use a couple of pot core halves. The other fun thing would be a flex kapton transformer. The thin dielectric would allow pretty tight mag coupling between sides. A flat ferrite disk, on one side or both, should help but not require punching any holes. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 16:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ogpe48$12ks$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #462576 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:45:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in <e3d0jch7t94ndjl6q0g3j8r8m297vbh89l@4ax.com>: >One of these one each side of a board > >http://tinyurl.com/yd7x3dbg > >http://tinyurl.com/y9gta7ox Did we not discus that here years? ago? I think I still have one of the bottom ones.. Maybe I'l give it a try if I can find 2. >would be interesting. Resonate both. > >You could also use a couple of pot core halves. That is good stuff, used for rotary transformers, the air gap (PCB thickness) should be low though. >The other fun thing would be a flex kapton transformer. The thin >dielectric would allow pretty tight mag coupling between sides. A flat >ferrite disk, on one side or both, should help but not require >punching any holes.
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-02 11:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f3a3jcpadhkunvl35uj8sq89unjn4d8snn@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462582 |
On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:07:36 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:45:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in ><e3d0jch7t94ndjl6q0g3j8r8m297vbh89l@4ax.com>: > >>One of these one each side of a board >> >>http://tinyurl.com/yd7x3dbg >> >>http://tinyurl.com/y9gta7ox > >Did we not discus that here years? ago? >I think I still have one of the bottom ones.. >Maybe I'l give it a try if I can find 2. > > >>would be interesting. Resonate both. >> >>You could also use a couple of pot core halves. > >That is good stuff, used for rotary transformers, >the air gap (PCB thickness) should be low though. > Yeah, FR4 would force a bigger magnetic gap than something serious, like kapton or teflon. Still, it wouldn't be hard to push a few watts through 50 or 62 mil thick FR4, good for 15KV or so. Maybe someone would make a rigid-flex sort of pcb stackup, mostly FR4 but with an inner layer of kapton. That has interesting possibilities for vias and such. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-02 11:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <epdpjnFa490U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #462722 |
On 2017-06-02 11:08, John Larkin wrote: > On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 16:07:36 GMT, Jan Panteltje > <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 08:45:10 -0700) it happened John Larkin >> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in >> <e3d0jch7t94ndjl6q0g3j8r8m297vbh89l@4ax.com>: >> >>> One of these one each side of a board >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/yd7x3dbg >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/y9gta7ox >> >> Did we not discus that here years? ago? >> I think I still have one of the bottom ones.. >> Maybe I'l give it a try if I can find 2. >> >> >>> would be interesting. Resonate both. >>> >>> You could also use a couple of pot core halves. >> >> That is good stuff, used for rotary transformers, >> the air gap (PCB thickness) should be low though. >> > > Yeah, FR4 would force a bigger magnetic gap than something serious, > like kapton or teflon. Still, it wouldn't be hard to push a few watts > through 50 or 62 mil thick FR4, good for 15KV or so. > > Maybe someone would make a rigid-flex sort of pcb stackup, mostly FR4 > but with an inner layer of kapton. That has interesting possibilities > for vias and such. > When I was a teenager I made capacitors out of dual-sided copperclad FR4 and used them in an amplifier where they were exposed to 5kV. The reason was purely budgetary since there was no way I'd ever touch my beer budget for that. I now know (back then didn't) that it wasn't kosher but they held up for years. Unlike a commercial ceramic cap which violently blew and turned most of its white ceramic into bubbly green glass. Hint to readers: Don't do this! -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ee8c7ce1-f4eb-4689-afba-3f01b2d5ac79@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462538 |
On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 9:47:43 AM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: > On a sunny day (Wed, 31 May 2017 15:57:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin > <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in > <s9iuic999l0geju4m3fcbgtdcavkosj6cq@4ax.com>: > > >On Wed, 31 May 2017 23:04:21 +0200, habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> > >wrote: > > > >>Le 31/05/2017 à 22:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : > >>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: > >>>> Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : > >>>>> Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers > >>>>> > >>>>> Klaus > >>>>> > >>>> Klaus, > >>>> > >>>> Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My > >>>> experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 > >>>> minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! > >>>> > >>> > >>> http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? > >>> > >>> haven't read it > >>Klaus, > >> > >>No I have not read it yet, I will of course tomorrow morning at work. > >>Mat be I'll learn something useful. Thx. > >> > >>Habib. > > > >He says that 800 v/mil is a typical spec for FR4, and 300 v/mil is > >conservative for long-term use. That would be 300*62 = 18.6 KV > >side-to-side on a standard 62 mil board. > > > >Sounds good to me, a free transformer, no winding required. > > Surface size depends on number of turns, current, frequency, > do you need some core material?, board surface outside needs some cover > (moisture in air high relative humidity) else it is just a big capacitor to air, > would not trust it at 18 kV for a microsecond. > You would need to cover it with several mm of some isolating stuff, > not just 'solder screen'. > Yes I have read that paper, not much new we did not know. > > Go optical. Use a 4 layer board. Primary side on layer 2, secondary side on layer 3. No copper in layer 1 and 4 (isolation to surrondings). Big Z distance from 2 to 3, small distance from 2 to 1 and 3 to 4 Cheers Klaus
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 14:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ogp9v7$rfh$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #462560 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Jun 2017 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in <ee8c7ce1-f4eb-4689-afba-3f01b2d5ac79@googlegroups.com>: >Use a 4 layer board. Primary side on layer 2, secondary side on layer 3. No= > copper in layer 1 and 4 (isolation to surrondings). Big Z distance from 2 = >to 3, small distance from 2 to 1 and 3 to 4 Would not a solid copper layer short your magnetic field? It sticks at a right angle out of the board!
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 12:08 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <j7mvicherj3pignm0chi5psn8dceoohest@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #460814 |
On Thu, 18 May 2017 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV Also take a look at two sided Teflon (PTFE) boards, these can also sustain a lot of punishment.
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| From | habib.bouaziz@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 04:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d511192e-b978-4cf1-8c6b-fff989b1100b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462542 |
Le jeudi 1 juin 2017 11:08:09 UTC+2, upsid...@downunder.com a écrit : > On Thu, 18 May 2017 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > > Also take a look at two sided Teflon (PTFE) boards, these can also > sustain a lot of punishment. Yup agreed. Not so expensive nowadays regarding insulation performance. FR4 becomes a sponge with age ... Habib
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <i980jctmmltciijq08nghro9rsbc83segm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462542 |
On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:08:11 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >On Thu, 18 May 2017 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund ><klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > >Also take a look at two sided Teflon (PTFE) boards, these can also >sustain a lot of punishment. Kapton is rated something outrageous like 7KV per mil. Coilcraft and others make cool kapton-pcb transformers. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 20:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ofkuvj$1o5$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #460807 |
On a sunny day (18 May 2017 10:07:39 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in <ofkkcr02q3h@drn.newsguy.com>: >oldschool@tubes.com wrote... >> >> What is a gate transformer used for? Those are some high >> voltages you have there. Either you're powering some hefty >> transmitter tubes or powering a neon sign. But it's >> probably some commercial device that I never heard of. > > It's for an AC bidirectional 10 kV MOSFET on/off switch, > with about 14 ohms of ON resistance, and low off leakage. > Each switch uses seven stages of 1.7kV SiC MOSFETs, and > we need 10 switches, that's 70 high-voltage gate drivers. > The Schaffner pulse trafos I have used (to drive HV thyristors) go to only 3 kV. A couple of month ago I was playing with optical fibers. You know LED on one side, there do exist photodetector high output chips. Depends also on how fast, and if you have any voltage on the other side to drive a special detector. If not, then [for example] a HUGE light bulb and small photo-cells to power the optical RX chips. There are many ways to skin a cat / polar bear, what not.
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-19 00:03 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <8p2shcd93ocovuodeug8qcmbq4e3upgilt@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #460807 |
On 18 May 2017 10:07:39 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >oldschool@tubes.com wrote... >> >> What is a gate transformer used for? Those are some high >> voltages you have there. Either you're powering some hefty >> transmitter tubes or powering a neon sign. But it's >> probably some commercial device that I never heard of. > > It's for an AC bidirectional 10 kV MOSFET on/off switch, > with about 14 ohms of ON resistance, and low off leakage. > Each switch uses seven stages of 1.7kV SiC MOSFETs, and > we need 10 switches, that's 70 high-voltage gate drivers. Have you considered fibre optics.? If some power is required at elevated potentials, a laser and a fibre is sometimes used to power small devices sitting on a 400 kV AC line. An other fiber is used to bring any measurement results back to ground potential.
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 14:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <p43shc9ouit63h86bbf65a9pk46l9533mm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #460807 |
On 18 May 2017 10:07:39 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >oldschool@tubes.com wrote... >> >> What is a gate transformer used for? Those are some high >> voltages you have there. Either you're powering some hefty >> transmitter tubes or powering a neon sign. But it's >> probably some commercial device that I never heard of. > > It's for an AC bidirectional 10 kV MOSFET on/off switch, > with about 14 ohms of ON resistance, and low off leakage. > Each switch uses seven stages of 1.7kV SiC MOSFETs, and > we need 10 switches, that's 70 high-voltage gate drivers. Do the SiC fets have equivalent reverse substrate diodes? Is there an avalanche damage hazard in the series string? If it doesn't have to be fast, maybe some sort of PV opto gate driver would work. Fiber or free-space. I still want to do something with a PCB transformer. Resonate a planar pcb coil on one side, drive hard; resonate another coil on the other side, rectify. Or maybe use surface-mount unshielded ferrite drum inductors on opposite sides of a PCB, as a dc/dc converter or as the actual coupler. That would be fun. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 10:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ep8dvmF2hefU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #460702 |
On 2017-05-17 14:33, Winfield Hill wrote: > Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. > Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple dc-dc converters for > 5kV gate-drive. > > Will need 100 to 200 pieces, or more. Parts test rated for 5kV for one second, > or even for 1 minute, are not acceptable. Maybe parts rated for 15kV for one > minute would be good enough. I can design and hand-wind transformers to meet > this spec, but sheesh, I don't want to wind 200 or more transformers! > In all cases where I needed something similar we ended up making our own. Starting with aerospace wire that has certified insulation properties, where every foot of it is tested, and so on. Tensolite-Carlisle was usually the supplier. If it absolutely has to be COTS maybe talk to these guys: http://www.appliedps.com/ap-1289-high-voltage-isolated-scr-gate-driver -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 21:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <592f1e94$0$8852$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #460702 |
Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : > Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... not so trivial indeed ! Habib
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| From | Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 12:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b298fda7-d517-46a4-b0da-ff9005f61209@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462477 |
Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: > Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : > > Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. > > What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based > transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... > not so trivial indeed ! > one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the other I assume
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| From | habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 22:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <592f2352$0$4833$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #462480 |
Le 31/05/2017 à 21:57, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : > Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: >> Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : >>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. >> >> What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based >> transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... >> not so trivial indeed ! >> > > one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the other > I assume > Ok then ! Please consider standard materials to sustain 10kV DC for 1 minute. My experience on that topic is that only custom transformers with Vaccum impregnation and Teflon insulators could do the trick ... may be. Habib.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 13:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <epbajeFn75kU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #462483 |
On 2017-05-31 13:10, habib wrote: > Le 31/05/2017 à 21:57, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>> Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : >>>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV >>>> continuous DC. >>> >>> What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based >>> transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... >>> not so trivial indeed ! >>> >> >> one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the >> other >> I assume >> > Ok then ! Please consider standard materials to sustain 10kV DC for 1 > minute. My experience on that topic is that only custom transformers > with Vaccum impregnation and Teflon insulators could do the trick ... > may be. > It does not have to be Teflon. Remember the old CRT TV sets? Their flyback line transformer secondary was often insulated to an operating voltage of more than 10kV. Operating voltage, not just breakdown test voltage. The cable used for the output was also typically rated at that because it could come to rest on the plated and grounded back of the CRT or the chassis, or both. There are many ways to build this gate transformer, it's just that there aren't many companies still able to do such stuff. One that comes to mind that might be is Vacuumschmelze in Germany but it would be a custom part. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 23:17 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <59308456$0$8919$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #462602 |
Le 01/06/2017 à 22:09, Joerg a écrit : > On 2017-05-31 13:10, habib wrote: >> Le 31/05/2017 à 21:57, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>>> Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : >>>>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV >>>>> continuous DC. >>>> >>>> What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based >>>> transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... >>>> not so trivial indeed ! >>>> >>> >>> one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the >>> other >>> I assume >>> >> Ok then ! Please consider standard materials to sustain 10kV DC for 1 >> minute. My experience on that topic is that only custom transformers >> with Vaccum impregnation and Teflon insulators could do the trick ... >> may be. >> > > It does not have to be Teflon. Remember the old CRT TV sets? Their > flyback line transformer secondary was often insulated to an operating > voltage of more than 10kV. Operating voltage, not just breakdown test > voltage. The cable used for the output was also typically rated at that > because it could come to rest on the plated and grounded back of the CRT > or the chassis, or both. Joerg, What does not have to be Teflon or Kapton ? We are speaking about PCB. The transfomer you are reffering to was for accelerating electron beam in the ancient vaccum tube. 10Kv did not transit on PCB. AFAIK. > > There are many ways to build this gate transformer, it's just that there > aren't many companies still able to do such stuff. One that comes to > mind that might be is Vacuumschmelze in Germany but it would be a custom > part. > Yeah right ! here Atesys (https://www.atesys-montoux.com) has a huge experience on high or very high voltage Transformers/Capacitors (No partial discharge, no Tang Delta derivation over years !!). I designed many high voltage instruments with their top class products with high competitive costs ;-) Habib
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 14:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <epbfl5Focc6U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #462604 |
On 2017-06-01 14:17, habib wrote: > Le 01/06/2017 à 22:09, Joerg a écrit : >> On 2017-05-31 13:10, habib wrote: >>> Le 31/05/2017 à 21:57, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >>>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>>>> Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : >>>>>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV >>>>>> continuous DC. >>>>> >>>>> What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based >>>>> transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... >>>>> not so trivial indeed ! >>>>> >>>> >>>> one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the >>>> other >>>> I assume >>>> >>> Ok then ! Please consider standard materials to sustain 10kV DC for 1 >>> minute. My experience on that topic is that only custom transformers >>> with Vaccum impregnation and Teflon insulators could do the trick ... >>> may be. >>> >> >> It does not have to be Teflon. Remember the old CRT TV sets? Their >> flyback line transformer secondary was often insulated to an operating >> voltage of more than 10kV. Operating voltage, not just breakdown test >> voltage. The cable used for the output was also typically rated at >> that because it could come to rest on the plated and grounded back of >> the CRT or the chassis, or both. > Joerg, > > What does not have to be Teflon or Kapton ? We are speaking about PCB. > I think Win meant regular transformers although he'll probably be open to PCB versions. > The transfomer you are reffering to was for accelerating electron beam > in the ancient vaccum tube. 10Kv did not transit on PCB. AFAIK. In the color units it sometimes did. They had Cockroft-Walton multipliers on the HV-side of the transformer and those were usually PCB-mounted just like all the primary side stuff. The voltage into the cascade was often "only" 10kV, on the PCB, and then stepped up to 30kV. The step-up circuitry past 10kV did not have PCB contact. They had long air slots in the board, something I do on HV designs a lot as well. I have even seen this done on phenolic board. >> >> There are many ways to build this gate transformer, it's just that >> there aren't many companies still able to do such stuff. One that >> comes to mind that might be is Vacuumschmelze in Germany but it would >> be a custom part. >> > Yeah right ! here Atesys (https://www.atesys-montoux.com) has a huge > experience on high or very high voltage Transformers/Capacitors (No > partial discharge, no Tang Delta derivation over years !!). > > I designed many high voltage instruments with their top class products > with high competitive costs ;-) > They don't have pulse transformers in the standard repertoire but a company like that probably has the know-how to also build those. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | habib.bouaziz@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-02 07:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <309fdaf8-1982-42da-95ef-792a528f3843@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462607 |
Le jeudi 1 juin 2017 23:35:39 UTC+2, Joerg a écrit : > On 2017-06-01 14:17, habib wrote: > > Le 01/06/2017 à 22:09, Joerg a écrit : > >> On 2017-05-31 13:10, habib wrote: > >>> Le 31/05/2017 à 21:57, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : > >>>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 21.50.48 UTC+2 skrev habib: > >>>>> Le 17/05/2017 à 23:33, Winfield Hill a écrit : > >>>>>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV > >>>>>> continuous DC. > >>>>> > >>>>> What does that you mean DC insulation refering a magnetic based > >>>>> transformer ? Please do not be offended about my trivial question ... > >>>>> not so trivial indeed ! > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> one side of the transformer floating on 5-10kV DC with respect to the > >>>> other > >>>> I assume > >>>> > >>> Ok then ! Please consider standard materials to sustain 10kV DC for 1 > >>> minute. My experience on that topic is that only custom transformers > >>> with Vaccum impregnation and Teflon insulators could do the trick ... > >>> may be. > >>> > >> > >> It does not have to be Teflon. Remember the old CRT TV sets? Their > >> flyback line transformer secondary was often insulated to an operating > >> voltage of more than 10kV. Operating voltage, not just breakdown test > >> voltage. The cable used for the output was also typically rated at > >> that because it could come to rest on the plated and grounded back of > >> the CRT or the chassis, or both. > > Joerg, > > > > What does not have to be Teflon or Kapton ? We are speaking about PCB. > > > > I think Win meant regular transformers although he'll probably be open > to PCB versions. > > > > The transfomer you are reffering to was for accelerating electron beam > > in the ancient vaccum tube. 10Kv did not transit on PCB. AFAIK. > > > In the color units it sometimes did. They had Cockroft-Walton > multipliers on the HV-side of the transformer and those were usually > PCB-mounted just like all the primary side stuff. The voltage into the > cascade was often "only" 10kV, on the PCB, and then stepped up to 30kV. > The step-up circuitry past 10kV did not have PCB contact. > Cockroft-Walton mulplier ; we call it "Latour multplier". Ok a voltage multiplier on PCB but creepage and clearance distances were considered only on surface and not through the PCB thickness ! (1.6mm for 10KV) E(v/m) = V/d ; V voltage and d distance ... for sure it's painful for a aged FR4 (although some are consider this comfortable ...). > They had long air slots in the board, something I do on HV designs a lot > as well. I have even seen this done on phenolic board. > > > >> > >> There are many ways to build this gate transformer, it's just that > >> there aren't many companies still able to do such stuff. One that > >> comes to mind that might be is Vacuumschmelze in Germany but it would > >> be a custom part. > >> > > Yeah right ! here Atesys (https://www.atesys-montoux.com) has a huge > > experience on high or very high voltage Transformers/Capacitors (No > > partial discharge, no Tang Delta derivation over years !!). > > > > I designed many high voltage instruments with their top class products > > with high competitive costs ;-) > > > > They don't have pulse transformers in the standard repertoire but a > company like that probably has the know-how to also build those. > Right ! not on standard transfomer products but they can do it on custom spec. Habib > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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