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Fast buffer idea

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  Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 13:50 -0400
    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 11:27 -0700
      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-14 19:19 +0000
        Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 15:24 -0400
        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 12:54 -0700
          Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:02 -0400
            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 13:10 -0700
              Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:16 -0400
                Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:18 -0400
                Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 14:14 -0700
                Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 19:51 +0100
                  Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
                    Re: Fast buffer idea Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:14 +1000
                      Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 16:26 -0700
                        Re: Fast buffer idea "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-17 02:04 -0500
          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-14 20:26 +0000
            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:31 -0400
            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:43 -0400
            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 14:17 -0700
              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-14 21:53 +0000
                Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 16:14 -0700
                  Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 19:59 -0400
                    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 20:06 -0700
                  Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 00:16 +0000
                    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 20:10 -0700
                      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 03:28 +0000
                        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 20:48 -0700
                          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 04:17 +0000
          Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 07:56 +0000
            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 06:58 -0400
              Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 12:59 +0000
            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-15 07:01 -0700
              Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 10:09 -0400
                Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 10:18 -0400
                  Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-15 08:56 -0700
                    Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 16:02 +0000
                      Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 10:33 -0700
                        Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 18:15 +0000
                          Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 14:25 -0400
                            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 14:26 -0400
                  Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 16:24 +0000
                    Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 16:36 +0000
                      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 17:18 +0000
                        Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 13:30 -0400
                          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 18:07 +0000
                            Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 19:19 +0000
                              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 19:45 +0000
                                Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 08:33 +0000
                          Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 19:13 +0000
                            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 15:33 -0400
                              Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 08:16 +0000
                                Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-16 22:10 -0400
                        Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 19:10 +0000
                Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-15 08:55 -0700
                  Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 12:51 -0400
                    Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 12:56 -0400
                      Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0400
                    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 10:28 -0700
                      Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 13:38 -0400
                        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 11:29 -0700
                          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 18:41 +0000
                            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 13:19 -0700
                              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 20:46 +0000
                                Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 13:56 -0700
                                  Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 21:00 +0000
                                    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 16:46 -0700
                                      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 01:22 +0000
                                        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 11:16 -0700
                                          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 18:55 +0000
                                            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 12:21 -0700
                                              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 20:33 +0000
                                                Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 14:00 -0700
                                                  Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 21:21 +0000
                                                    Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 16:15 -0700
                                                      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 23:58 +0000
                                                        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-16 17:51 -0700
                                                    Re: Fast buffer idea pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 16:30 -0700
                                                      Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-17 00:16 +0000
                                                        Re: Fast buffer idea pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 18:05 -0700
                                                          Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 20:05 -0700
                                                          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-25 01:13 +0000
                                                            Re: Fast buffer idea Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-24 21:43 -0400
                                                              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-30 03:16 +0000
                                                  Re: Fast buffer idea Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2017-05-17 02:26 +0000
                                                    Re: Fast buffer idea Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-17 08:34 +0200
                                                      Re: Fast buffer idea Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2017-05-17 14:31 +0000
                                                        Re: Fast buffer idea Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-17 10:39 -0400
                                                          Re: Fast buffer idea Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 23:02 +0800
                                          Re: Fast buffer idea Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-16 21:24 +0200
                                            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 20:12 -0700
                                    Re: Fast buffer idea Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-25 04:38 -0700
                                      Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-25 07:28 -0700
                                        Re: Fast buffer idea "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-26 08:54 -0500
                                          Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-26 14:14 +0000
                                          Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-26 07:21 -0700
                                Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 20:27 +0100
                          Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 15:05 -0400
                            Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 15:19 -0400
                            Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-15 13:21 -0700
                              Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 20:56 +0000
                              Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 17:37 -0400
                Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 19:50 +0100
                  Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 19:25 +0000
                    Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 20:19 +0100
              Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 14:33 +0000
                Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 13:15 -0400
                  Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 19:05 +0000
                    Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-15 15:38 -0400
                      Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 08:12 +0000
                        Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 18:47 +0000
                          Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-16 21:52 -0400
                            Re: Fast buffer idea Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-25 05:05 -0700
                              Re: Fast buffer idea pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 05:42 -0700
                                Re: Fast buffer idea Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-25 05:49 -0700
                                  Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-25 08:10 -0700
                              Re: Fast buffer idea Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-25 15:01 +0200
        Re: Fast buffer idea "John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 18:53 -0700
          Re: Fast buffer idea Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-15 02:45 +0000
      Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 15:23 -0400
    Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 20:28 +0100
      Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:00 -0400
      Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0400
        Re: Fast buffer idea Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-14 17:58 -0700
          Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 23:13 -0400
          Re: Fast buffer idea Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-16 17:27 -0700
            Re: Fast buffer idea Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-16 17:34 -0700
        Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-14 20:14 -0700
          Re: Fast buffer idea "Kevin Aylward" <kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 19:42 +0100
    Re: Fast buffer idea "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-16 03:29 -0500
      Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 06:57 -0700
        Re: Fast buffer idea bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-16 22:47 -0400
          Re: Fast buffer idea John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 20:18 -0700
            Re: Fast buffer idea "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-17 02:22 -0500
      Re: Fast buffer idea Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 14:05 +0000

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#460436

On 05/15/2017 04:21 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2017 15:05:51 -0400, bitrex
> <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On 05/15/2017 02:29 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 May 2017 13:38:11 -0400, bitrex
>>> <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/15/2017 01:28 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Snoop the input current of that buffer. At 20 MHz, the overall current
>>>>>>> gain is less than 1. At 100 MHz, the current gain is about 0.1. You'd
>>>>>>> be better off with a piece of wire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure what "input current" you're looking at. I'm seeing an
>>>>>> average current of around 600uA into the MOSFET gates at 100MHz.
>>>>>
>>>>> I put a 1 mohm resistor in series with the signal generator and probed
>>>>> the current, with a sine wave signal input. Try it and see what you
>>>>> get.
>>>>
>>>> How are the gate capacitances of the input MOSFETs supposed to be
>>>> charged up and down with that fuckin' thing sitting in the way?!
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the circuit to hell and then complain it's bad?! Shit! :O
>>>
>>> mohm means milliohm, in SI units and in Spice.
>>
>> Ok, I see what you mean; forgive my, uh, outburst. And there is a bug
>> with sine wave drive that isn't apparent with a square drive.
>>
>> Problem seems to be that with these slow transistors, I optimized R9 and
>> R10 to make a nice square wave. But those resistors aren't optimal for a
>> sine-wave of say 1V P2P; the boost transistors never turn on hard
>> enough, and if the output transistors can't get the current they need
>> they're going to try to pull it from somewhere, namely from the MOSFETs.
>> Or since Vds is fixed it can probably try to pull it right from the
>> input source.
>>
>> That's probably fixable.
>
> You might use some smaller mosfets; those are 10 amp beasts.
>
> Or bipolars. A spin on Jan's 4-transistor circuit should work.
>

I think I found a way to resolve the problems to make it have a nice 
linear boost proportional to signal amplitude for all types of signals. 
Requires rearranging the feedback from the output emitters to the inner 
transistors a little bit. Stay tune...

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#460400

"bitrex"  wrote in message news:EEiSA.74451$bl5.68044@fx25.iad...

On 05/15/2017 10:01 AM, John Larkin wrote:

> BW is 230 MHz as a unity-gain buffer. Each half of the dual will
> source and sink 88 mA. And there are lots of faster THS-series parts.
>
>>
>> But indeed you can do that with a few NPNs of the old days,
>>
>
> Post it.

>With discretes you can have:

>1) wide bandwidth

>2) low parts count

>3) low quiescent current draw

Actually, you missed accuracy.

The key technical limit is the triple of speed, accuracy, and power. You 
can't chose them independently.

Typical example, to get lower distortion in a feedback system, gain might be 
increased. This means you have to slow it down with compensation to make it 
stable. You can increase he BW back up by increasing the current. Increasing 
current reduces collector output resistance by Va/Ic, but the gain stays the 
same because gm has gone up. The lower ro.Cl increases the BW of the stage.


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

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#460411

On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 19:50:40 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote in
<Ca6dnRH1w-4cZYTEnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>:

>"bitrex"  wrote in message news:EEiSA.74451$bl5.68044@fx25.iad...
>
>On 05/15/2017 10:01 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> BW is 230 MHz as a unity-gain buffer. Each half of the dual will
>> source and sink 88 mA. And there are lots of faster THS-series parts.
>>
>>>
>>> But indeed you can do that with a few NPNs of the old days,
>>>
>>
>> Post it.
>
>>With discretes you can have:
>
>>1) wide bandwidth
>
>>2) low parts count
>
>>3) low quiescent current draw
>
>Actually, you missed accuracy.
>
>The key technical limit is the triple of speed, accuracy, and power. You 
>can't chose them independently.
>
>Typical example, to get lower distortion in a feedback system, gain might be 
>increased. This means you have to slow it down with compensation to make it 
>stable. You can increase he BW back up by increasing the current. Increasing 
>current reduces collector output resistance by Va/Ic, but the gain stays the 
>same because gm has gone up. The lower ro.Cl increases the BW of the stage.

Hi Kevin, just wanted to ask,
I was following some public lectures by several professors last week,
and the last one was about the Higgs boson.
In that space is not empty and filled with the Higgs field.
Today I have been studying that stuff..
and found some interesting mass related problems.
Did you have thoughts about that?

Ever met the man?

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#460560

"Jan Panteltje"  wrote in message news:ofcvan$1ak0$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 19:50:40 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward"
<kevinRemovAT@kevinaylward.co.uk> wrote in
<Ca6dnRH1w-4cZYTEnZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>:

>"bitrex"  wrote in message news:EEiSA.74451$bl5.68044@fx25.iad...
>
>On 05/15/2017 10:01 AM, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> BW is 230 MHz as a unity-gain buffer. Each half of the dual will
>> source and sink 88 mA. And there are lots of faster THS-series parts.
>>
>>>
>>> But indeed you can do that with a few NPNs of the old days,
>>>
>>
>> Post it.
>
>>With discretes you can have:
>
>>1) wide bandwidth
>
>>2) low parts count
>
>>3) low quiescent current draw
>
>Actually, you missed accuracy.
>
>The key technical limit is the triple of speed, accuracy, and power. You
>can't chose them independently.
>
>>Typical example, to get lower distortion in a feedback system, gain might 
>>be
>>increased. This means you have to slow it down with compensation to make 
>>it
>>stable. You can increase he BW back up by increasing the current. 
>>Increasing
>>current reduces collector output resistance by Va/Ic, but the gain stays 
>>the
>>same because gm has gone up. The lower ro.Cl increases the BW of the 
>>stage.

>Hi Kevin, just wanted to ask,
>I was following some public lectures by several professors last week,
>and the last one was about the Higgs boson.
>In that space is not empty and filled with the Higgs field.
>Today I have been studying that stuff..
>and found some interesting mass related problems.
>Did you have thoughts about that?

Higgs stuff is way, way to complicated for us engineers. However, empty 
space, most certainly, isn't empty. Things are popping in and out of 
existence all the time.

Lots of mass related problems. What causes inertia? Is it mass sending out 
gravitons that boomerang back to oppose motion, or a sea of of vacuum stuff. 
I don't buy the Mach principle bit. Its all mystery darkness...


>Ever met the man?

I have not met Pete, however, I did get a signed letter from him around 
2,000. I was thinking about applying to do a Ph.D at Edinburgh Uni. The idea 
faded though.

-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

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#460347

On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 07:01:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
<dpcjhclpajjafaf2nq0q7l7nt17jl40spo@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:56:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sun, 14 May 2017 12:54:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>><auchhcp4h0898t9hatrh3017esf6dve1n5@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>If the object is to buffer a logic level, some 13-cent TinyLogic gate,
>>>like an NL37WZ16US or something.
>>>
>>>If it needs to be linear, there are tons of opamps to consider:
>>>THS4222, AD8007, whatever.
>>
>>THS4222 datasheet says open loop gain 0dB at 100 MHz?
>
>Where does it say that?
>
>>With a free 80 degrees phase shift?
>>Fig 17, see also Fig 1 for 500 Ohm load.
>>
>>It won't drive a 50 Ohm coax either..
>>Maybe good for a 5 to 10 MHz wide video amp...
>>
>
>BW is 230 MHz as a unity-gain buffer. Each half of the dual will
>source and sink 88 mA. And there are lots of faster THS-series parts.
>
>>
>>But indeed you can do that with a few NPNs of the old days,
>> 
>
>Post it.

Did not I ;-)?

Actually when I did read that OP, I scribbled this on my 'desk':
 http://panteltje.com/pub/maybe_this_amp_IMG_6183.JPG
  that is a dual complementary emitter follower.

The reason I did not jump into the discussion with that, is that _in this form_
I am not sure about zero temp drift, it may need some resistors.
But it should have zero output offset versus input, low output impedance,
high input impedance, temp tracking, and I do not have spice running
to give an idea, so not a tested thing.
So if it melts you mega $ trannies so be it.

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#460375

On 05/15/2017 10:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 07:01:06 -0700) it happened John Larkin
> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
> <dpcjhclpajjafaf2nq0q7l7nt17jl40spo@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Mon, 15 May 2017 07:56:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 14 May 2017 12:54:12 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>>> <auchhcp4h0898t9hatrh3017esf6dve1n5@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> If the object is to buffer a logic level, some 13-cent TinyLogic gate,
>>>> like an NL37WZ16US or something.
>>>>
>>>> If it needs to be linear, there are tons of opamps to consider:
>>>> THS4222, AD8007, whatever.
>>>
>>> THS4222 datasheet says open loop gain 0dB at 100 MHz?
>>
>> Where does it say that?
>>
>>> With a free 80 degrees phase shift?
>>> Fig 17, see also Fig 1 for 500 Ohm load.
>>>
>>> It won't drive a 50 Ohm coax either..
>>> Maybe good for a 5 to 10 MHz wide video amp...
>>>
>>
>> BW is 230 MHz as a unity-gain buffer. Each half of the dual will
>> source and sink 88 mA. And there are lots of faster THS-series parts.
>>
>>>
>>> But indeed you can do that with a few NPNs of the old days,
>>>
>>
>> Post it.
>
> Did not I ;-)?
>
> Actually when I did read that OP, I scribbled this on my 'desk':
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/maybe_this_amp_IMG_6183.JPG
>   that is a dual complementary emitter follower.
>
> The reason I did not jump into the discussion with that, is that _in this form_
> I am not sure about zero temp drift, it may need some resistors.
> But it should have zero output offset versus input, low output impedance,
> high input impedance, temp tracking, and I do not have spice running
> to give an idea, so not a tested thing.
> So if it melts you mega $ trannies so be it.
>

It's a regular "diamond buffer" topology. Without emitter degeneration 
resistors in the output emitters it's asking for thermal runaway, and 
the output waveform won't be particularly linear.

Try adding 10 ohm degeneration resistors, and check the quiescent 
current on that bad boy with 10/-10 rails. Yikes!

Taking feedback from the tops of the degeneration resistors to the input 
collectors makes it more linear by reducing Early effect variations. 
It's an even better idea with a MOSFET input stage, as ideally if the 
Vds is near constant you wont have the gm compromised due to 
channel-length modulation.

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#460405

On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 13:15:52 -0400) it happened bitrex
<bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in <cnlSA.15485$Qg.3753@fx14.iad>:

>>
>> Actually when I did read that OP, I scribbled this on my 'desk':
>>  http://panteltje.com/pub/maybe_this_amp_IMG_6183.JPG
>>   that is a dual complementary emitter follower.
>>
>> The reason I did not jump into the discussion with that, is that _in this form_
>> I am not sure about zero temp drift, it may need some resistors.
>> But it should have zero output offset versus input, low output impedance,
>> high input impedance, temp tracking, and I do not have spice running
>> to give an idea, so not a tested thing.
>> So if it melts you mega $ trannies so be it.
>>
>
>It's a regular "diamond buffer" topology. Without emitter degeneration 
>resistors in the output emitters it's asking for thermal runaway, and 
>the output waveform won't be particularly linear.
>
>Try adding 10 ohm degeneration resistors, and check the quiescent 
>current on that bad boy with 10/-10 rails. Yikes!
>
>Taking feedback from the tops of the degeneration resistors to the input 
>collectors makes it more linear by reducing Early effect variations. 
>It's an even better idea with a MOSFET input stage, as ideally if the 
>Vds is near constant you wont have the gm compromised due to 
>channel-length modulation.

OK, challenge?
I have the transistors:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/have_those_transistors_in_quantity_IMG_6184.JPG

So build it, used a 10K pot (single 10 V supply) to put the input at half way (5 V) 47k in series,
poly coupling cap, 1000Hz audio from eeePC:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/build_it_and_testing_at_10V_IMG_6185.JPG

      NO resistors
here without flash so you can read the mA meter:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/buid_it_and_testing_no_flash_IMG_6186.JPG

Sorry for the crowded place, lots of things multitasking here.

I did not load it, but it sure wanted to beep on my FM radio as I did not decouple the supply lines...
Old Trio Kenwood scope does not go that high.
Never underestimate El Pante

Current does not increase from 5 to 10 V, did not try higher,,
The audio generator is Linux sgen.

Now for the spice by those who have it!

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#460413

On 05/15/2017 03:05 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 13:15:52 -0400) it happened bitrex
> <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in <cnlSA.15485$Qg.3753@fx14.iad>:
>
>>>
>>> Actually when I did read that OP, I scribbled this on my 'desk':
>>>  http://panteltje.com/pub/maybe_this_amp_IMG_6183.JPG
>>>   that is a dual complementary emitter follower.
>>>
>>> The reason I did not jump into the discussion with that, is that _in this form_
>>> I am not sure about zero temp drift, it may need some resistors.
>>> But it should have zero output offset versus input, low output impedance,
>>> high input impedance, temp tracking, and I do not have spice running
>>> to give an idea, so not a tested thing.
>>> So if it melts you mega $ trannies so be it.
>>>
>>
>> It's a regular "diamond buffer" topology. Without emitter degeneration
>> resistors in the output emitters it's asking for thermal runaway, and
>> the output waveform won't be particularly linear.
>>
>> Try adding 10 ohm degeneration resistors, and check the quiescent
>> current on that bad boy with 10/-10 rails. Yikes!
>>
>> Taking feedback from the tops of the degeneration resistors to the input
>> collectors makes it more linear by reducing Early effect variations.
>> It's an even better idea with a MOSFET input stage, as ideally if the
>> Vds is near constant you wont have the gm compromised due to
>> channel-length modulation.
>
> OK, challenge?
> I have the transistors:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/have_those_transistors_in_quantity_IMG_6184.JPG
>
> So build it, used a 10K pot (single 10 V supply) to put the input at half way (5 V) 47k in series,
> poly coupling cap, 1000Hz audio from eeePC:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/build_it_and_testing_at_10V_IMG_6185.JPG
>
>       NO resistors
> here without flash so you can read the mA meter:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/buid_it_and_testing_no_flash_IMG_6186.JPG
>
> Sorry for the crowded place, lots of things multitasking here.
>
> I did not load it, but it sure wanted to beep on my FM radio as I did not decouple the supply lines...
> Old Trio Kenwood scope does not go that high.
> Never underestimate El Pante
>
> Current does not increase from 5 to 10 V, did not try higher,,
> The audio generator is Linux sgen.
>
> Now for the spice by those who have it!

Yes, the basic topology is an _excellent_ performer at low quiescent 
bias current, low frequency, and into no load! ;-)

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#460478

On a sunny day (Mon, 15 May 2017 15:38:06 -0400) it happened bitrex
<bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in <zsnSA.28967$9o7.3799@fx12.iad>:

>>  http://panteltje.com/pub/build_it_and_testing_at_10V_IMG_6185.JPG
>>
>>       NO resistors
>> here without flash so you can read the mA meter:
>>  http://panteltje.com/pub/buid_it_and_testing_no_flash_IMG_6186.JPG
>>
>> Sorry for the crowded place, lots of things multitasking here.
>>
>> I did not load it, but it sure wanted to beep on my FM radio as I did not decouple the supply lines...
>> Old Trio Kenwood scope does not go that high.
>> Never underestimate El Pante
>>
>> Current does not increase from 5 to 10 V, did not try higher,,
>> The audio generator is Linux sgen.
>>
>> Now for the spice by those who have it!
>
>Yes, the basic topology is an _excellent_ performer at low quiescent 
>bias current, low frequency, and into no load! ;-)

Na, be a good sport, if I have time tonight I will add a 75 Ohm load,
and rebuild it so the driver PNP is making thermal contact with the output NPN (for each half).
I hope that will fix any thermal tracking.
The above setup I build faster than you spicers could enter it.
AND it is real, unlike in the matrix.. 
;-)

Hey I am well aware of all the potential problems and limitations,
but it is fun to test how real those are and if those REALLY are a show-stopper.

Always learning.

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#460549

On a sunny day (Tue, 16 May 2017 08:12:13 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <ofec8t$1a9r$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

><bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in <zsnSA.28967$9o7.3799@fx12.iad>:

>>Yes, the basic topology is an _excellent_ performer at low quiescent 
>>bias current, low frequency, and into no load! ;-)
>
>Na, be a good sport, if I have time tonight I will add a 75 Ohm load,
>and rebuild it so the driver PNP is making thermal contact with the output NPN (for each half).
>I hope that will fix any thermal tracking.
>The above setup I build faster than you spicers could enter it.
>AND it is real, unlike in the matrix.. 
>;-)

So....
been doing some testing, 75 Ohm load:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/some_detail_IMG_6194.JPG

  2 signal sources, laptop 20 kHz and 60 MHz square wave oscillator module (on small PCB borrowed from other HF project).
  output loaded with 75 Ohm coupled with a capacitor as I am testing with single rail lab supply between 5 and 10V.
  and I decoupled the supply line too this time.

20 kHz in 75 Ohm:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/input_output_20kHz_75_Ohm_load_IMG_6193.JPG
  input and output guess who is who (I know).

Since I do not have one of those defective scopes, the ones that only work every now and then,
sometimes call 'sampling scopes [1]' by their users, I use a trick 
 http://panteltje.com/pub/60MHz_square_wave_in_antenna_out_plus_75Ohm_load_IMG_6192.JPG
send the output to a piece of wire, and via LAN start raspberry that has antenna in attic sdr_rtl and my spectrum analyzer (I wrote it)

to see what comes out as harmonics.... of the 60 MHz square wave I feed in:
 http://panteltje.com/pub/testing_second_harmonic_of_60MHz_squarewave_IMG_6191.JPG
base at 60 MHz, second at 120 MHz, third at 180 MHz and a weak fourth at 240 MHz no problem finding with sdr gain at minimum.

Hope this helps.

Any more questions please build it yerself, it is not that hard.

Thermal runaway? No sign of it, not with these voltages and 75 Ohm load.
So .. else glue some trannies together so they track.
nuf said.

[1] I do have one but it is slow:
 http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/

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#460619

On 05/16/2017 02:47 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Tue, 16 May 2017 08:12:13 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
> <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <ofec8t$1a9r$1@gioia.aioe.org>:
>
>> <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in <zsnSA.28967$9o7.3799@fx12.iad>:
>
>>> Yes, the basic topology is an _excellent_ performer at low quiescent
>>> bias current, low frequency, and into no load! ;-)
>>
>> Na, be a good sport, if I have time tonight I will add a 75 Ohm load,
>> and rebuild it so the driver PNP is making thermal contact with the output NPN (for each half).
>> I hope that will fix any thermal tracking.
>> The above setup I build faster than you spicers could enter it.
>> AND it is real, unlike in the matrix..
>> ;-)
>
> So....
> been doing some testing, 75 Ohm load:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/some_detail_IMG_6194.JPG
>
>   2 signal sources, laptop 20 kHz and 60 MHz square wave oscillator module (on small PCB borrowed from other HF project).
>   output loaded with 75 Ohm coupled with a capacitor as I am testing with single rail lab supply between 5 and 10V.
>   and I decoupled the supply line too this time.
>
> 20 kHz in 75 Ohm:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/input_output_20kHz_75_Ohm_load_IMG_6193.JPG
>   input and output guess who is who (I know).
>
> Since I do not have one of those defective scopes, the ones that only work every now and then,
> sometimes call 'sampling scopes [1]' by their users, I use a trick
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/60MHz_square_wave_in_antenna_out_plus_75Ohm_load_IMG_6192.JPG
> send the output to a piece of wire, and via LAN start raspberry that has antenna in attic sdr_rtl and my spectrum analyzer (I wrote it)
>
> to see what comes out as harmonics.... of the 60 MHz square wave I feed in:
>  http://panteltje.com/pub/testing_second_harmonic_of_60MHz_squarewave_IMG_6191.JPG
> base at 60 MHz, second at 120 MHz, third at 180 MHz and a weak fourth at 240 MHz no problem finding with sdr gain at minimum.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Any more questions please build it yerself, it is not that hard.
>
> Thermal runaway? No sign of it, not with these voltages and 75 Ohm load.
> So .. else glue some trannies together so they track.
> nuf said.
>
> [1] I do have one but it is slow:m
>  http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>
>
>

Ideally one could use one of those monolithic multi-transistors on a 
single die, like the CA3096...it doesn't seem like you can get 'em for 
any reasonable price anymore, though. They have them direct from China 
on eBay. I'm a little leery of that option...burned before!

I also had an idea for a faster variation on the LM13700 OTA using a 
couple transistor array ICs and a Burr Brown current source/mirror chip. 
It would "only" cost 15 bucks...:(

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#461640

bitrex wrote...
>
> Ideally one could use one of those monolithic multi-transistors
> on a single die, like the CA3096...it doesn't seem like you can
> get 'em for any reasonable price anymore, though. 

 Bah, you guys are fooling around with 50 to 300MHz parts,
 go play with Intersil's serious monolithic BJTs: HFA3096,
 HFA3127, HFA3128, HFA3046, HFA3101, HFA3102, etc.  These 
 have fT ratings up to 10GHz.  HFA3134 and HFA3135, nice!


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#461643

> Bah, you guys are fooling around with 50 to 300MHz parts, 
> go play with Intersil's serious monolithic BJTs: HFA3096, 
> HFA3127, HFA3128, HFA3046, HFA3101, HFA3102, etc.  These 
> have fT ratings up to 10GHz.  HFA3134 and HFA3135, nice! 

I keep trying to use those for something cool, and somehow they never quite fit. 

Disappointing Ree' and beta linearity, mostly. Also V_A is only about 15V.

Now if I could get monolithic dual BFP640s, _that_ would be cool.  

My latest gizmo uses a couple of those wrapped round each side of a MAT14 diff pair. It's a biased Darlington stage to return the base current to the collector to extend the effective f_T of the MAT14, and a common emitter stage looking at the MAT14's base and driving the Darlington's base to keep it still.

In the spherical-cow universe that extends the MAT14's f_T by about an order of magnitude while keeping its other nice properties. 

We'll see how it works in a week or two. 

Cheers

Phil

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#461644

pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...
>
>> ah, you guys are fooling around with 50 to 300MHz parts,
>> go play with Intersil's serious monolithic BJTs: HFA3096,
>> HFA3127, HFA3128, HFA3046, HFA3101, HFA3102, etc.  These
>> have fT ratings up to 10GHz. HFA3134 and HFA3135, nice!
>
> I keep trying to use those for something cool, and somehow
> they never quite fit.  Disappointing Ree' and beta linearity,
> mostly. Also V_A is only about 15V.

 OK, actually, I haven't found many useful applications
 either.  Their operating current ratings are rather low.


-- 
 Thanks,
    - Win

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#461662

On 25 May 2017 05:49:02 -0700, Winfield Hill
<hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote:

>pcdhobbs@gmail.com wrote...
>>
>>> ah, you guys are fooling around with 50 to 300MHz parts,
>>> go play with Intersil's serious monolithic BJTs: HFA3096,
>>> HFA3127, HFA3128, HFA3046, HFA3101, HFA3102, etc.  These
>>> have fT ratings up to 10GHz. HFA3134 and HFA3135, nice!
>>
>> I keep trying to use those for something cool, and somehow
>> they never quite fit.  Disappointing Ree' and beta linearity,
>> mostly. Also V_A is only about 15V.
>
> OK, actually, I haven't found many useful applications
> either.  Their operating current ratings are rather low.

The problem with a transistor with Ft=10 GHz is that beta=1 at 10 GHz!

I like phemts and mmics for fast stuff. Bipolars never seem to be as
fast as they promise, unless you tune them, and that's just RF.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

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#461649

Am 25.05.2017 um 14:05 schrieb Winfield Hill:
> bitrex wrote...
>>
>> Ideally one could use one of those monolithic multi-transistors
>> on a single die, like the CA3096...it doesn't seem like you can
>> get 'em for any reasonable price anymore, though.
> 
>   Bah, you guys are fooling around with 50 to 300MHz parts,
>   go play with Intersil's serious monolithic BJTs: HFA3096,
>   HFA3127, HFA3128, HFA3046, HFA3101, HFA3102, etc.  These
>   have fT ratings up to 10GHz.  HFA3134 and HFA3135, nice!

They were real fun in a time stretcher, that ft combined with
the fat space qualified ceramic flatpack with looong leads.
But they are about the only qualified RF PNPs that are left.

Gerhard

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#460305

On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 12:19:51 PM UTC-7, Steve Wilson wrote:
> What are your recommendations to handle a 100MHz square wave?

LMH5401 and LTC6409 are both good parts.

Or an AD8000 for that matter, depending on how many harmonics you want to keep.

-- john, KE5FX

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#460307

"John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, May 14, 2017 at 12:19:51 PM UTC-7, Steve Wilson wrote:
>> What are your recommendations to handle a 100MHz square wave?
> 
> LMH5401 and LTC6409 are both good parts.
> 
> Or an AD8000 for that matter, depending on how many harmonics you want
> to keep. 
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
 
LMH5401 鮢 another one for the collection. Good info. Thanks

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#460264

On 05/14/2017 02:27 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2017 13:50:19 -0400, bitrex
> <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Diamond buffers are kind of cool, emitter feedback makes them linear and
>> they don't have much phase shift, but they kind of suck balls whenever
>> you want to actually move appreciable current with them which
>> unfortunately is exactly what you'd want to do with a buffer.
>>
>> I came up with this thing that uses a sort of MOSFET-BJT Sziklai pair
>> input-thing to drive boosting transistors to pump more dynamic current
>> into the output follower's bases to speed up the transitions. This is
>> the sim of it pushing a 100MHz square wave into a load using jellybean
>> transistors:
>>
>> http://imgur.com/a/bM8hl
>>
>> Fast recovery didoes from the bases of the boosting transistors to
>> ground and Vcc seem to speed up the transitions a lot.
>
> The output, even before the inductor, doesn't follow the input very
> well, and it's a heap of parts. Why not use a fast opamp?
>

At least at the junction of R1 and R2, I think it follows it pretty good 
for being made up of mostly glorified relay switching BJTs! Trying to 
drive any kind of load with a simpler diamond topology using the same 
jellybeans at 100MHz and all you get is slop. That draws a ton of 
quiescent current.

I don't think it's that many parts, you can have multiple transistors 
and diodes in the same package! It's just a lot of lines.

Fast op-amps that can put out enough current to drive coax are pricey...

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#460266

"bitrex"  wrote in message news:vN0SA.45616$3M3.37466@fx16.iad...

>Diamond buffers are kind of cool, emitter feedback makes them linear and 
>they don't have much phase shift, but they kind of suck balls whenever you 
>want to actually move appreciable current with them which unfortunately is 
>exactly what you'd want to do with a buffer.

>I came up with this thing that uses a sort of MOSFET-BJT Sziklai pair 
>input-thing to drive boosting transistors to pump more dynamic current into 
>the output follower's bases to speed up the transitions. This is the sim of 
>it pushing a 100MHz square wave into a load using jellybean transistors:

What are the design goals? If you want speed and low distortion, you should 
drop the mosfets, and the jelly bean transistors. Use the highest ft 
bipolara that you can find, like 10Ghz. The low gm of the mosfets really 
kill things.

I haven't examined the effectiveness of the additional boost circuit, but it 
is important to make sure the basic design is optimised first.  Typically, 
something like a 1:4 build up in current from the first bip follower to the 
second bip follower. In an asic design I might use the same current and use 
multiple devices in parallel. I would suggest trying an active current 
source to the input followers, to get the drive to the second follower, and 
remove the boost circuit. Use standard configurations, until you can prove 
that a bright idea is truly better.


On the spice side, the setting looked f'uped. Why are you running so many 
cycles, so that the edge rates are ~10ns in a 200us plot!  You should only 
have to run for 50ns.

Also, the schematic has s/c diodes.

I haven't run it yet, as it wont due to errors in the file you pasted.

-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html 

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