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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #451353 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800 |
| Last post | 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 94 — 14 participants |
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Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 16:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 16:33 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 20:15 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:43 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-13 02:05 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-13 21:33 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 12:00 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:44 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 05:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 12:53 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-15 15:11 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:34 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 20:38 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-16 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-17 16:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:35 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-18 07:42 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-14 14:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 14:21 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 00:50 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 07:26 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 11:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:31 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 23:26 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 16:29 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 01:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 09:45 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 07:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 09:18 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 13:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:00 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 22:17 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 12:14 -0400
) Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-03-12 01:12 -0500
Re: ) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 03:51 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-03-11 14:27 -0600
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:38 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-12 23:57 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600
Page 3 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 Next page →
| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <f2iqcc17kui0jgh9mtr8b1p6arh4d1pt0v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #452426 |
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 07:42:58 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-03-17 19:35, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:54:15 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-03-16 17:36, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:58 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-03-15 17:38, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 15:11:05 -0700 (PDT), kevin93 >>>>>> <kevin@whitedigs.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 5:53:36 AM UTC-7, tabb...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> Again electric blankets kill more people than all other household appliances put together. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NT >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although it seems that the major issue is causing fires rather than electrocution. (at least form my quick perusal via Google). >>>>>> >>>>>> Exactly. Arc-fault interruptors address this problem. Ground Fault >>>>>> interrupters don't to squat. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have never been in the home of a frail elderly person who gets by on >>>>> a measly social security check and with whatever they've already got? >>>>> Including that heating blanket from the 70's that's already totally >>>>> frayed but "it still works"? >>>> >>>> You still don't get it. The problem with electric blankes is *FIRE*, >>>> not electicution. Even if it were, there is no ground around to trip >>>> a GFCI. Ergo, a GFCI is completely useless in this situation. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, right ... >>> >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/kashmir/short-circuit-in-electric-blanket-kills-senior-kashmir-doctor/234344.html >> >> So the great Joerg knows how to use Google. Wow! BTW, where did it >> say anything about L-E? >> > >No but it's obvious what happened. It was just one example and that one >was a fatality which could most likely have been avoided had there been >GFCI protection. Now the great Joerg is clairvoyant. He *knows* what happened but he wasn't there and nothing in the reports indicates what happened. Bullshit. >Other cases result is a shock followed by a bad fall, >meaning ER or worse. Again, when you are caring or volunteering for >elderly people you'll find all sorts of hazardous stuff and a common one >if worn out electric blanket. "Oh, don't worry, this still has years of >life in it". Taking that away from an old guy is about as difficult as >taking the car keys away. Utter bullshit.
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| From | Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oa7u3n$9h9$2@gonzo.alcatraz> |
| In reply to | #451594 |
On 2017-03-13, tabbypurr@gmail.com <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 13 March 2017 00:44:05 UTC, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:16:55 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>> >thunderstorm and ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in
>> >this building? Where could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in
>> >the basement? Or is there a subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>>
>> Kitchens must have at least two small appliance circuits.
>>
>> >> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
>> >> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
>> >> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>
>> Why would you have a GFCI for a bedroom?
>
> Electric blankets kill more people than all other domestic appliances.
a GFCI won't save you unless you are somewhat grounded.
--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ol7gccllsk8fevarku4sktgkbrn5hj6djj@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451754 |
On 14 Mar 2017 05:12:23 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
>On 2017-03-13, tabbypurr@gmail.com <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, 13 March 2017 00:44:05 UTC, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:16:55 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> >That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>>> >thunderstorm and ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in
>>> >this building? Where could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in
>>> >the basement? Or is there a subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>>>
>>> Kitchens must have at least two small appliance circuits.
>>>
>>> >> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
>>> >> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
>>> >> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>>
>>> Why would you have a GFCI for a bedroom?
>>
>> Electric blankets kill more people than all other domestic appliances.
>
>a GFCI won't save you unless you are somewhat grounded.
Bingo!
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eio67vF11dfU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451554 |
On 2017-03-12 17:43, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 08:16:55 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>> thunderstorm and ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in
>> this building? Where could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in
>> the basement? Or is there a subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>
> Kitchens must have at least two small appliance circuits.
>
>>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
>>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
>>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>
> Why would you have a GFCI for a bedroom?
>
Because of kids. What I did as a kid still makes me develop goose bumps.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <lcqbcc1g2oul4tpep94v1j5dcb9l83em3f@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451479 |
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 07:59:33 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>On 3/12/2017 7:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>>> run them
>>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>>
>>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>>> aisle was
>>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>>> and (so
>>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>>> <expletive
>>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>>> (!) breaker.
>>>
>>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>
>> Here they do hold up.
>
>I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
>Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
>foul the mechanism).
That makes sense. The fix is to locate the GFCI outlet inside.
>
>I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
>over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
>circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).
Buy "Spec grade" or better, "Hospital Grade".
>> Square, round, who cares?
>
>When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>*different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>(annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>away on each side.)
If it bothers you that much, change them.
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| From | whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <62161d29-a211-44f5-b6a4-4a39339141db@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451479 |
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 7:59:32 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I > don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS > bathroom. Nice theory, but it doesn't work. Every time a house is expanded, there's a new load center (and the old one becomes a subpanel). I've had to track down a GFCI reset button by trying multiple bathrooms and finally a utility room only accessible through an exterior door. Taking notes helps, but putting everything 'in the obvious place' doesn't stand the test of time.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa7ce8$37f$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451698 |
On 3/13/2017 4:53 PM, whit3rd wrote: > On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 7:59:32 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: > >> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I >> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS >> bathroom. > > Nice theory, but it doesn't work. Every time a house is expanded, there's > a new load center (and the old one becomes a subpanel). I've had to track > down a GFCI reset button by trying multiple bathrooms and finally > a utility room only accessible through an exterior door. I've never lived in an "expanded" house. > Taking notes helps, but putting everything 'in the obvious place' doesn't stand > the test of time. Why should "GFCI's" be treated differently than "circuit breakers"? Would you adopt a THIRD criteria to determine where to site AFCI's? Adding MORE candidate locations will magically make your search EASIER??
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eiqf6nFerb8U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451702 |
On 2017-03-13 17:13, Don Y wrote: > On 3/13/2017 4:53 PM, whit3rd wrote: >> On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 7:59:32 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote: >> >>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I >>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS >>> bathroom. >> >> Nice theory, but it doesn't work. Every time a house is expanded, >> there's >> a new load center (and the old one becomes a subpanel). I've had to >> track >> down a GFCI reset button by trying multiple bathrooms and finally >> a utility room only accessible through an exterior door. > > I've never lived in an "expanded" house. > Many of us have, or are. >> Taking notes helps, but putting everything 'in the obvious place' >> doesn't stand >> the test of time. > > Why should "GFCI's" be treated differently than "circuit breakers"? > Would you adopt a THIRD criteria to determine where to site AFCI's? > > Adding MORE candidate locations will magically make your search > EASIER?? Yes. First, when it goes you hear a loud THWOCK and that tells your hearing system that it's somewhere over there under the cabinet 3-5ft from the door. Then, in case you missed that or it happened while it was too noisy, you can look around and will undoubtedly see one or more outlets with those telltale buttons. Provided they are mounted in plain view which any electricians worth their salt will do. You don't have to go on a hunt for a panel which usually is obscured or tucked away. Or in a commercial building might even have a pad lock on the handle which will really make your day. One situation I encountered was the panel being located in a section of the business that was locked for the weekend. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <n4qbcc1ifvp9dr5lml07k1sh0k91dpfe6l@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451469 |
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 07:07:46 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
>On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>> run them
>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>
>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>
>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>> aisle was
>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>> and (so
>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>> <expletive
>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>> (!) breaker.
>>
>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>
>
>Here they do hold up. Square, round, who cares? Aside from an order of
>magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI outlet
>is where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>someone plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know
>what happened. They can reset it right there.
Our VT house had one GFCI breaker in the whole house, for the outside
and two-and-a-half bathrooms. The entrance panel was in a closet on
the frnt porch. Really nice when one stepped out of the shower and
then popped the GFCI.
>
>An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the
>outlet instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices
>either.
>
>
>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>> daisy-chained
>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>> are
>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
>> them a good deal!)
>>
>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>
>
>Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>outrageous. I don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do
>mind when a company tried to rip me off.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eio86pF1ed4U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451550 |
On 2017-03-12 17:36, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 07:07:46 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>>> run them
>>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>>
>>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>>> aisle was
>>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>>> and (so
>>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>>> <expletive
>>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>>> (!) breaker.
>>>
>>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>>
>>
>> Here they do hold up. Square, round, who cares? Aside from an order of
>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI outlet
>> is where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>> someone plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know
>> what happened. They can reset it right there.
>
> Our VT house had one GFCI breaker in the whole house, for the outside
> and two-and-a-half bathrooms. The entrance panel was in a closet on
> the frnt porch. Really nice when one stepped out of the shower and
> then popped the GFCI.
Or if you are still in the shower which has a tankless electric heater
and the water temperature changes from 90F to 40F in two seconds ....
YOUWEEEE!
Another nice experience was when we all woke up to an ice-cold house and
blank alarm clock displays. Some time after going to bed a thunderstorm
rolled through and that must have tripped the whole house GFCI. Without
electricity the central heat had quit along with everything else. The
house had radiant heat so it took a long time to inch back up to a
reasonable temperature.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <0be36c68-424c-419c-bfca-fec9bee50534@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451360 |
Den lørdag den 11. marts 2017 kl. 21.34.21 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: > On 2017-03-11 12:09, Don Y wrote: > > On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: > >> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: > >> > >> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" > >> electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes > >> he didn't > >> properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the > >> tap-off is > >> loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: > >> > >> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? > >> > >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 > >> > > > > In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" > > replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" > > demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. > > > > That will be very tedious. http://www.ebay.com/itm/310392921860 ?
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eijhghF3douU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451369 |
On 2017-03-11 13:27, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > Den lørdag den 11. marts 2017 kl. 21.34.21 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: >> On 2017-03-11 12:09, Don Y wrote: >>> On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: >>>> >>>> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" >>>> electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes >>>> he didn't >>>> properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the >>>> tap-off is >>>> loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: >>>> >>>> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? >>>> >>>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 >>>> >>> >>> In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" >>> replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" >>> demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. >>> >> >> That will be very tedious. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/310392921860 > > ? > I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there was no way to loosen those screws one more time. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <87d236bd-4d0a-4ecd-8231-8a460012e5ab@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451395 |
Den søndag den 12. marts 2017 kl. 01.02.29 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: > On 2017-03-11 13:27, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > > Den lørdag den 11. marts 2017 kl. 21.34.21 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: > >> On 2017-03-11 12:09, Don Y wrote: > >>> On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: > >>>> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: > >>>> > >>>> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" > >>>> electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes > >>>> he didn't > >>>> properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the > >>>> tap-off is > >>>> loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: > >>>> > >>>> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? > >>>> > >>>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 > >>>> > >>> > >>> In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" > >>> replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" > >>> demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. > >>> > >> > >> That will be very tedious. > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/310392921860 > > > > ? > > > > I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that > at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The > material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all > the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there > was no way to loosen those screws one more time. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eil3dbFcf0iU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451400 |
On 2017-03-11 16:33, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: > Den søndag den 12. marts 2017 kl. 01.02.29 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: >> On 2017-03-11 13:27, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote: >>> Den lørdag den 11. marts 2017 kl. 21.34.21 UTC+1 skrev Joerg: >>>> On 2017-03-11 12:09, Don Y wrote: >>>>> On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>>> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: >>>>>> >>>>>> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" >>>>>> electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes >>>>>> he didn't >>>>>> properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the >>>>>> tap-off is >>>>>> loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: >>>>>> >>>>>> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" >>>>> replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" >>>>> demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That will be very tedious. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/310392921860 >>> >>> ? >>> >> >> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that >> at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The >> material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all >> the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there >> was no way to loosen those screws one more time. >> > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 > Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage for 30 years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos shows the screw terminal. That's the part that rusts out and makes a breaker de-facto unusable. That is what ruined all the ones in the panel I was dealing with (non-heated room), even one that was never used. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f927f8c2-44e5-4cb1-88e1-8009d02da6bb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451472 |
On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: > >> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that > >> at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The > >> material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all > >> the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there > >> was no way to loosen those screws one more time. > >> > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 > > > > Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage for 30 > years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos shows the screw > terminal. That's the part that rusts out and makes a breaker de-facto > unusable. That is what ruined all the ones in the panel I was dealing > with (non-heated room), even one that was never used. sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. NT
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eiolv5F47hgU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451504 |
On 2017-03-12 11:38, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: > >>>> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that >>>> at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The >>>> material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all >>>> the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there >>>> was no way to loosen those screws one more time. >>>> >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 >>> >> >> Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage for 30 >> years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos shows the screw >> terminal. That's the part that rusts out and makes a breaker de-facto >> unusable. That is what ruined all the ones in the panel I was dealing >> with (non-heated room), even one that was never used. > > sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. > And then Monsieur L'Inspecteur waltzes in. One guy around here soldered connections in his house wiring which IMHO made it much safer than the usual fare. However, the inspector blew a gasket and made him rip it all out. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <17b3f3eb-2f6c-474a-8613-5373bff79399@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451688 |
On Monday, 13 March 2017 22:49:13 UTC, Joerg wrote: > On 2017-03-12 11:38, tabbypurr wrote: > > On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: > > > >>>> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see breakers like that > >>>> at yard sales and typically their contacting screws are rusted shut. The > >>>> material quality wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all > >>>> the breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires as there > >>>> was no way to loosen those screws one more time. > >>>> > >>> > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 > >>> > >> > >> Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage for 30 > >> years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos shows the screw > >> terminal. That's the part that rusts out and makes a breaker de-facto > >> unusable. That is what ruined all the ones in the panel I was dealing > >> with (non-heated room), even one that was never used. > > > > sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. > > > > And then Monsieur L'Inspecteur waltzes in. One guy around here soldered > connections in his house wiring which IMHO made it much safer than the > usual fare. However, the inspector blew a gasket and made him rip it all > out. Soldered connections aren't necessarily safer, it depends. It's easy to inadequately mechanically support a soldered joint making it fragile & thus unsafe. It also can melt, raising resistance under adverse conditions. If you're an EE you oughta be able to do it properly though. NT
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eiqeqfFemviU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451770 |
On 2017-03-14 06:40, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, 13 March 2017 22:49:13 UTC, Joerg wrote: >> On 2017-03-12 11:38, tabbypurr wrote: >>> On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>> >>>>>> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see >>>>>> breakers like that at yard sales and typically their >>>>>> contacting screws are rusted shut. The material quality >>>>>> wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all the >>>>>> breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires >>>>>> as there was no way to loosen those screws one more time. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 >>>>> >>>> >>>> Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage >>>> for 30 years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos >>>> shows the screw terminal. That's the part that rusts out and >>>> makes a breaker de-facto unusable. That is what ruined all the >>>> ones in the panel I was dealing with (non-heated room), even >>>> one that was never used. >>> >>> sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. >>> >> >> And then Monsieur L'Inspecteur waltzes in. One guy around here >> soldered connections in his house wiring which IMHO made it much >> safer than the usual fare. However, the inspector blew a gasket and >> made him rip it all out. > > Soldered connections aren't necessarily safer, it depends. It's easy > to inadequately mechanically support a soldered joint making it > fragile & thus unsafe. It also can melt, raising resistance under > adverse conditions. If you're an EE you oughta be able to do it > properly though. > Yes, and if properly soldered and kept from moving they sure last longer than those dreaded wire nuts. I can't even count anymore how many times I opened a box and one of more of the wire nuts almost fell off. I've also see my share of wire nuts where the plastic cover had clearly melted. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <bp7gcct8iigbtsk5jjqro4hmv4270km9dq@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451774 |
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:59:32 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-03-14 06:40, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >> On Monday, 13 March 2017 22:49:13 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>> On 2017-03-12 11:38, tabbypurr wrote: >>>> On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see >>>>>>> breakers like that at yard sales and typically their >>>>>>> contacting screws are rusted shut. The material quality >>>>>>> wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all the >>>>>>> breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires >>>>>>> as there was no way to loosen those screws one more time. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage >>>>> for 30 years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos >>>>> shows the screw terminal. That's the part that rusts out and >>>>> makes a breaker de-facto unusable. That is what ruined all the >>>>> ones in the panel I was dealing with (non-heated room), even >>>>> one that was never used. >>>> >>>> sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. >>>> >>> >>> And then Monsieur L'Inspecteur waltzes in. One guy around here >>> soldered connections in his house wiring which IMHO made it much >>> safer than the usual fare. However, the inspector blew a gasket and >>> made him rip it all out. >> >> Soldered connections aren't necessarily safer, it depends. It's easy >> to inadequately mechanically support a soldered joint making it >> fragile & thus unsafe. It also can melt, raising resistance under >> adverse conditions. If you're an EE you oughta be able to do it >> properly though. No, the real reason it isn't allowed is that it hasn't been "listed" as an acceptable method. > >Yes, and if properly soldered and kept from moving they sure last longer >than those dreaded wire nuts. I can't even count anymore how many times >I opened a box and one of more of the wire nuts almost fell off. I've >also see my share of wire nuts where the plastic cover had clearly melted. Wire nuts are perfectly safe if the installer has half a brain. Of the billions in service, how many have failed?
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eiqsp3Fhka5U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451786 |
On 2017-03-14 09:51, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:59:32 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-03-14 06:40, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Monday, 13 March 2017 22:49:13 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>> On 2017-03-12 11:38, tabbypurr wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, 12 March 2017 14:14:07 UTC, Joerg wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> I found a whole slew of those. However, you also see >>>>>>>> breakers like that at yard sales and typically their >>>>>>>> contacting screws are rusted shut. The material quality >>>>>>>> wasn't all that great. That also was the case for all the >>>>>>>> breakers I tore out of this panel. I had to snip the wires >>>>>>>> as there was no way to loosen those screws one more time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190797335710 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Provided they did not store it in the basement, attic or garage >>>>>> for 30 years. In the verious listings nearly none of the photos >>>>>> shows the screw terminal. That's the part that rusts out and >>>>>> makes a breaker de-facto unusable. That is what ruined all the >>>>>> ones in the panel I was dealing with (non-heated room), even >>>>>> one that was never used. >>>>> >>>>> sand/file/grind some rust off & solder to it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> And then Monsieur L'Inspecteur waltzes in. One guy around here >>>> soldered connections in his house wiring which IMHO made it much >>>> safer than the usual fare. However, the inspector blew a gasket and >>>> made him rip it all out. >>> >>> Soldered connections aren't necessarily safer, it depends. It's easy >>> to inadequately mechanically support a soldered joint making it >>> fragile & thus unsafe. It also can melt, raising resistance under >>> adverse conditions. If you're an EE you oughta be able to do it >>> properly though. > > No, the real reason it isn't allowed is that it hasn't been "listed" > as an acceptable method. >> >> Yes, and if properly soldered and kept from moving they sure last longer >> than those dreaded wire nuts. I can't even count anymore how many times >> I opened a box and one of more of the wire nuts almost fell off. I've >> also see my share of wire nuts where the plastic cover had clearly melted. > > Wire nuts are perfectly safe if the installer has half a brain. Of > the billions in service, how many have failed? > I haven't kept count but my estimate would be more than 1% of the connections I came across. All by licensed electricians though that doesn't always mean much. It only takes one wire nut coming loose ever so slightly to trigger a house fire. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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