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Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis?

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  Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-05 11:31 -0800
    Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net> - 2017-03-06 07:46 +1000
      Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-05 14:43 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net> - 2017-03-06 11:23 +1000
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 07:48 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-03-06 11:41 -0800
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 12:04 -0800
    Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-05 14:52 -0800
      Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-05 15:43 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-05 16:15 -0800
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 07:49 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-05 17:10 -0800
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-03-06 06:14 -0600
            Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-03-06 07:18 -0800
            Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 07:53 -0800
      Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 16:26 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-05 16:42 -0800
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-05 20:41 -0800
    Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-05 17:53 -0700
      Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 08:02 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 10:19 -0800
    Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> - 2017-03-06 02:12 +0000
      Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-06 08:06 -0800
        Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com> - 2017-03-07 00:56 +0000
          Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-07 07:32 -0800
            Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-03-07 10:57 -0800
              Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-03-07 10:59 -0800
                Re: Slightly OT: Wine fridge temperature hysteresis? Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-07 11:19 -0800

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#450474

On 2017-03-06 08:02, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-05 16:53, Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:31:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What is normal for a temperature hysteresis (or "dead band") in a wine
>>> fridge? I am seeing 5F and more. It is a Vinotemp VT182.
>>
>> Our KitchenAid wine refrigerator has ~4°F hysteresis... very annoying
>> for an engineer to watch >:-}  But doesn't seem to hurt the wine at
>> all.
>>
>
> Ah, so then 5F would be almost normal in the market. I wonder why they
> do that.
>
> I'll see what the fermentation process says to that. If not happy I'll
> build my own controller. It's already on the schematic, just a lot of
> soldering. This would also allow me to strap a LM35-based sensor pod
> directly to a fermenter.
>
> [...]
>

BTW, I don't know much about wine but with beer there are a few types 
such as Pilsener and some Belgian ales where a difference of 5F can 
definitely matter. It can be the difference between ideal drinking 
temperature and too cold where yuo'd lose som flavors.

Anyhow, another project just reared its ugly head. The main pool pump 
goes TUNGGGG or sometimes just "tick" when it is supposed to come on but 
the motor won't turn. Shaft spins though. And it's raining, of course. 
Oh man ...

Since the sweep pump operates via timer that one might already have 
committed suicide because its design is suboptimal in that it can't run 
dry for long :-(

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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#450380

On 05/03/2017 19:31, Joerg wrote:
> What is normal for a temperature hysteresis (or "dead band") in a wine
> fridge? I am seeing 5F and more. It is a Vinotemp VT182.

Most older fridges I have come across have the capillary bulb or sensor 
next to the cooling radiator, such that any hysteresis was reduced.

> Long story short I modified it to become a beer fermenting chamber and
> added heating capability. Due to it being winter out here it is operated
> in heat mode right now and the original controller is still used to
> measure and regulate temps. I didn't hack the micro controller part of
> it (yet ...).  Currently it is set to 65F. Heat came on at 63F or 64F
> and now it's topped out at 69F, still heating. Since the heater is wimpy
> that means it may be always on until it gets warmer outside. No problem,
> just got me to wonder why the hysteresis is so large on these.

Not so long ago our central heating (bimetal) thermostats would have a 
resistor that would heat the bimetal strip when the thermostat demanded 
heat.  That, in a crude way, reduced the hysteresis.

Look for accelerator in:
   http://www.flameport.com/electric/central_heating/room_thermostat.cs4


-- 
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

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#450460

On 2017-03-05 18:12, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 05/03/2017 19:31, Joerg wrote:
>> What is normal for a temperature hysteresis (or "dead band") in a wine
>> fridge? I am seeing 5F and more. It is a Vinotemp VT182.
>
> Most older fridges I have come across have the capillary bulb or sensor
> next to the cooling radiator, such that any hysteresis was reduced.
>

This one is electronic. The sensor does sit next to the cooling 
exchanger but the uC in the electronic sets the hysteresis.


>> Long story short I modified it to become a beer fermenting chamber and
>> added heating capability. Due to it being winter out here it is operated
>> in heat mode right now and the original controller is still used to
>> measure and regulate temps. I didn't hack the micro controller part of
>> it (yet ...).  Currently it is set to 65F. Heat came on at 63F or 64F
>> and now it's topped out at 69F, still heating. Since the heater is wimpy
>> that means it may be always on until it gets warmer outside. No problem,
>> just got me to wonder why the hysteresis is so large on these.
>
> Not so long ago our central heating (bimetal) thermostats would have a
> resistor that would heat the bimetal strip when the thermostat demanded
> heat.  That, in a crude way, reduced the hysteresis.
>
> Look for accelerator in:
>    http://www.flameport.com/electric/central_heating/room_thermostat.cs4
>

Crude but it works. With electronics this is no longer necessary though.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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#450542

On 06/03/2017 16:06, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-05 18:12, Mike Perkins wrote:
>> On 05/03/2017 19:31, Joerg wrote:
>>> What is normal for a temperature hysteresis (or "dead band") in a wine
>>> fridge? I am seeing 5F and more. It is a Vinotemp VT182.
>>
>> Most older fridges I have come across have the capillary bulb or sensor
>> next to the cooling radiator, such that any hysteresis was reduced.
>>
>
> This one is electronic. The sensor does sit next to the cooling
> exchanger but the uC in the electronic sets the hysteresis.

The hysteresis might have been set to take into account the nature of 
the cooling radiator in much the same way the mechanics of the bimetal 
sensor set the hysteresis.

My point is that the hysteresis was in part negated by the position of 
the sensor, which as you say is next to the heat exchanger.

>>> Long story short I modified it to become a beer fermenting chamber and
>>> added heating capability. Due to it being winter out here it is operated
>>> in heat mode right now and the original controller is still used to
>>> measure and regulate temps. I didn't hack the micro controller part of
>>> it (yet ...).  Currently it is set to 65F. Heat came on at 63F or 64F
>>> and now it's topped out at 69F, still heating. Since the heater is wimpy
>>> that means it may be always on until it gets warmer outside. No problem,
>>> just got me to wonder why the hysteresis is so large on these.
>>
>> Not so long ago our central heating (bimetal) thermostats would have a
>> resistor that would heat the bimetal strip when the thermostat demanded
>> heat.  That, in a crude way, reduced the hysteresis.
>>
>> Look for accelerator in:
>>    http://www.flameport.com/electric/central_heating/room_thermostat.cs4
>>
>
> Crude but it works. With electronics this is no longer necessary though.

Sorry, but hysteresis is hysteresis, whether through a mechanical switch 
or electronic means. I accept if you have access to the code then 
obviously you can make an equivalent of an 'accelerator heater' and save 
a component.

-- 
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

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#450624

On 2017-03-06 16:56, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 06/03/2017 16:06, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-05 18:12, Mike Perkins wrote:
>>> On 05/03/2017 19:31, Joerg wrote:
>>>> What is normal for a temperature hysteresis (or "dead band") in a wine
>>>> fridge? I am seeing 5F and more. It is a Vinotemp VT182.
>>>
>>> Most older fridges I have come across have the capillary bulb or sensor
>>> next to the cooling radiator, such that any hysteresis was reduced.
>>>
>>
>> This one is electronic. The sensor does sit next to the cooling
>> exchanger but the uC in the electronic sets the hysteresis.
>
> The hysteresis might have been set to take into account the nature of
> the cooling radiator in much the same way the mechanics of the bimetal
> sensor set the hysteresis.
>
> My point is that the hysteresis was in part negated by the position of
> the sensor, which as you say is next to the heat exchanger.
>

However, the hysteresis was still huge when I test ran it in cooling 
mode and the cycle times were very long. It just does not make sense.


>>>> Long story short I modified it to become a beer fermenting chamber and
>>>> added heating capability. Due to it being winter out here it is
>>>> operated
>>>> in heat mode right now and the original controller is still used to
>>>> measure and regulate temps. I didn't hack the micro controller part of
>>>> it (yet ...).  Currently it is set to 65F. Heat came on at 63F or 64F
>>>> and now it's topped out at 69F, still heating. Since the heater is
>>>> wimpy
>>>> that means it may be always on until it gets warmer outside. No
>>>> problem,
>>>> just got me to wonder why the hysteresis is so large on these.
>>>
>>> Not so long ago our central heating (bimetal) thermostats would have a
>>> resistor that would heat the bimetal strip when the thermostat demanded
>>> heat.  That, in a crude way, reduced the hysteresis.
>>>
>>> Look for accelerator in:
>>>    http://www.flameport.com/electric/central_heating/room_thermostat.cs4
>>>
>>
>> Crude but it works. With electronics this is no longer necessary though.
>
> Sorry, but hysteresis is hysteresis, whether through a mechanical switch
> or electronic means. I accept if you have access to the code then
> obviously you can make an equivalent of an 'accelerator heater' and save
> a component.
>

Well, for the heating situation I'd have to make an "accelerator cooler" 
and that is no small feat. Would require a peltier which dissipates to 
some other farther away part in the fridge. Plus power.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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#450658

> 
> Well, for the heating situation I'd have to make an "accelerator cooler" 
> and that is no small feat. Would require a peltier which dissipates to 
> some other farther away part in the fridge. Plus power.
> 
>

no, you just set up the small heater next to the sensor such that the heater is ON when the cooler is OFF.

You can then easily adjust the system hysteresis.

Also the term used is "anticipator"

mark

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#450659

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-5, mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Well, for the heating situation I'd have to make an "accelerator cooler" 
> > and that is no small feat. Would require a peltier which dissipates to 
> > some other farther away part in the fridge. Plus power.
> > 
> >
> 
> no, you just set up the small heater next to the sensor such that the heater is ON when the cooler is OFF.
> 

which is simply a small resistor ACROSS the contacts

> You can then easily adjust the system hysteresis.
> 
> Also the term used is "anticipator"
> 
> mark

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#450668

On 2017-03-07 10:59, makolber@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-5, mako...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, for the heating situation I'd have to make an "accelerator cooler"
>>> and that is no small feat. Would require a peltier which dissipates to
>>> some other farther away part in the fridge. Plus power.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> no, you just set up the small heater next to the sensor such that the heater is ON when the cooler is OFF.
>>
>
> which is simply a small resistor ACROSS the contacts
>
>> You can then easily adjust the system hysteresis.
>>
>> Also the term used is "anticipator"
>>
>> mark
>

There are no contacts here, it's all electronic. I could place a small 
heater resistor near the sensor. Except then the temperature display 
will be off but I could probably arrive at a cheat sheet for that. More 
cables though.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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