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How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps?

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  How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? oldschool@tubes.com - 2017-03-18 19:12 -0500
    Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 20:47 -0400
      Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 18:11 -0700
    Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 18:08 -0700
      Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-03-19 05:08 +0000
        Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 22:38 -0700
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-19 02:46 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 04:25 -0700
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-19 06:01 -0700
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-19 07:46 -0700
        Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "Dave M" <dgminala@mediacombb.net> - 2017-03-19 22:49 -0500
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 22:31 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-23 19:01 -0400
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 16:24 -0700
                Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-23 16:37 -0700
                  Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 17:46 -0700
                    Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-23 18:05 -0700
                      Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-25 03:18 -0400
                Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-25 03:16 -0400
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-26 19:36 +0000
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? oldschool@tubes.com - 2017-03-20 14:04 -0500
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-03-21 17:22 +0000
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-03-20 19:27 +0000
      Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-20 12:24 -0700
        Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-03-21 09:14 +1100
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-20 17:04 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-20 20:06 -0700
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-21 00:18 -0700
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-03-21 05:55 -0700
                Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-03-21 06:46 -0700
        Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-03-21 03:15 -0400
    Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 22:25 -0400
      Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 19:52 -0700
        Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 23:14 -0400
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 23:14 -0400
          Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 20:32 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-20 00:01 -0400
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 22:32 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 03:52 -0700
            Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-20 15:18 -0400
              Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-03-20 21:28 +0200
                Re: How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-03-20 16:26 -0400

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#452505 — How do those Spring Reverbs work in guitar amps?

The Spring Reverbs inside guitar amps have always fascinated me, and I
took them one step further by connecting one to my stereo years ago, and
the sound was really cool! 

So, yea, I know the basic operation. According to one web article, there
is a transducer at one end of a spring and a pickup on the other end.
This caused the spring to vibrate and create the reverb effect. One
group from the 1960s and 70s that really used them was the Ventures. (I
have to mention that I love that groups music). Often when they play,
you can actually hear them springs. 

I've taken them inside guitar amps and bnaged them, and they really can
make a clatter.

But what I am not finding is exactly what or how does this transducer
work. Is it similar to a speaker coil? Or what goes on inside there?

And the pickup, is that similar to a microphone, or what? 

There seems to be nothing that actually details the workings inside of
them on the web. So, I thought I'd ask on here. 

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#452511

On 3/18/2017 8:12 PM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> The Spring Reverbs inside guitar amps have always fascinated me, and I
> took them one step further by connecting one to my stereo years ago, and
> the sound was really cool!
>
> So, yea, I know the basic operation. According to one web article, there
> is a transducer at one end of a spring and a pickup on the other end.
> This caused the spring to vibrate and create the reverb effect. One
> group from the 1960s and 70s that really used them was the Ventures. (I
> have to mention that I love that groups music). Often when they play,
> you can actually hear them springs.
>
> I've taken them inside guitar amps and bnaged them, and they really can
> make a clatter.
>
> But what I am not finding is exactly what or how does this transducer
> work. Is it similar to a speaker coil? Or what goes on inside there?
>
> And the pickup, is that similar to a microphone, or what?
>
> There seems to be nothing that actually details the workings inside of
> them on the web. So, I thought I'd ask on here.

Yes, the transducers are like a speaker and mic.  The sound travels down 
the spring taking some time.  The signal is picked up at the far end 
giving a delayed copy.  This delayed copy can be run back to the input 
where it is delayed again.  By controlling the gain of this feedback the 
reverb can be made more or less pronounced.  If the loop gain exceeds 1 
it will create an ever growing echo that gets out of control like 
feedback, but not at a high frequency.

-- 

Rick C

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#452518

Prickman is WRONG again:


> 
> Yes, the transducers are like a speaker and mic.  The sound travels down 
> the spring taking some time.  The signal is picked up at the far end 
> giving a delayed copy.  This delayed copy can be run back to the input 
> where it is delayed again. 
>

** No, there is no loop feedback around a spring a reverb unit.

The torsional waves simply reflect at each and and travel back and forward many times before fading out. 

A reverb control only mixes signal from the unit with direct signal to vary the effect. 


....  Phil

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#452516

olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>
> The Spring Reverbs inside guitar amps have always fascinated me, and I
> took them one step further by connecting one to my stereo years ago, and
> the sound was really cool! 
> 
> So, yea, I know the basic operation. According to one web article, there
> is a transducer at one end of a spring and a pickup on the other end.
> This caused the spring to vibrate and create the reverb effect. One
> group from the 1960s and 70s that really used them was the Ventures. (I
> have to mention that I love that groups music). Often when they play,
> you can actually hear them springs. 
> 
> I've taken them inside guitar amps and bnaged them, and they really can
> make a clatter.
> 
> But what I am not finding is exactly what or how does this transducer
> work. Is it similar to a speaker coil? Or what goes on inside there?
> 
> And the pickup, is that similar to a microphone, or what? 
> 
> There seems to be nothing that actually details the workings inside of
> them on the web. So, I thought I'd ask on here.
>

** The long springs transmit torsional waves, twisting back and forward so must be driven the same way. Tiny tube magnets are made to twist by the drive coil assembly while at the far end a near identical transducer converts the twisting back to an electrical signal. 

The drive assembly is a kind of motor that makes the magnet rotate on its axis about +/- 30degrees. A torsional wave travels fairly slowly down a spring, making for long reverb times. 

A major benefit of this method is that external vibrations do not induce torsional waves in the springs but only lateral ones and so are largely rejected by the pick up assembly. 

AFAIK the idea was patented by Hammond in the late 50s - then made famous by Fender in the 60s guitar amps. 

BYI  I agree, it is not easy to find the above info on the net since the Accutronics site disappeared.



....  Phil 

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#452546

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
> olds...@tubes.com wrote:
>>
>> The Spring Reverbs inside guitar amps have always fascinated me, and I
>> took them one step further by connecting one to my stereo years ago, and
>> the sound was really cool!
>>
>> So, yea, I know the basic operation. According to one web article, there
>> is a transducer at one end of a spring and a pickup on the other end.
>> This caused the spring to vibrate and create the reverb effect. One
>> group from the 1960s and 70s that really used them was the Ventures. (I
>> have to mention that I love that groups music). Often when they play,
>> you can actually hear them springs.
>>
>> I've taken them inside guitar amps and bnaged them, and they really can
>> make a clatter.
>>
>> But what I am not finding is exactly what or how does this transducer
>> work. Is it similar to a speaker coil? Or what goes on inside there?
>>
>> And the pickup, is that similar to a microphone, or what?
>>
>> There seems to be nothing that actually details the workings inside of
>> them on the web. So, I thought I'd ask on here.
>>
>
> ** The long springs transmit torsional waves, twisting back and
> forward so must be driven the  same way. Tiny tube magnets are made to
> twist by the drive coil assembly while at the far end a near identical
> transducer converts the twisting back to an electrical signal.
>
> The drive assembly is a kind of motor that makes the magnet rotate on
> its axis about +/- 30degrees. A torsional wave travels fairly slowly
> down a spring, making for long reverb times.
>
> A major benefit of this method is that external vibrations do not induce
> torsional waves in the springs but only lateral ones and so are largely
> rejected by the pick up assembly.
>
> AFAIK the idea was patented by Hammond in the late 50s - then made famous
> by Fender in the 60s guitar amps.
>
> BYI  I agree, it is not easy to find the above info on the net since the
> Accutronics site disappeared.

Your followup just now made me aware of that a company named Accutronics
used to exist. There's a couple of spring reverbs in my bone pile. The
metal tanks are stamped with "ACCUTRONICS GENEVA, ILL." The tanks
originally came from PAIA as part of a kit:

    http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=6740K
    http://www.paia.com/ProdArticles/hotspuse.htm

This site seems like a good source of information:

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-corner/spring-reverb-tanks-explained-and-compared

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#452548

Don Kuenz wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
>
> >
> > The drive assembly is a kind of motor that makes the magnet rotate on
> > its axis about +/- 30degrees. A torsional wave travels fairly slowly
> > down a spring, making for long reverb times.
> >
> > A major benefit of this method is that external vibrations do not induce
> > torsional waves in the springs but only lateral ones and so are largely
> > rejected by the pick up assembly.
> >
> 
> Your followup just now made me aware of that a company named Accutronics
> used to exist. There's a couple of spring reverbs in my bone pile. The
> metal tanks are stamped with "ACCUTRONICS GENEVA, ILL." The tanks
> originally came from PAIA as part of a kit:
> 
>     http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=6740K
>     http://www.paia.com/ProdArticles/hotspuse.htm
> 
> This site seems like a good source of information:
> 
> https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-corner/spring-reverb-tanks-explained-and-compared


** Funny how it totally fails to mention the principle of operation.



...   Phil 

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#452557

>"** Funny how it totally fails to mention the principle of operation. "

On a couple of guitar amps I had to invert the phase of the speaker(s) because of feedback. Does this mean I actually had a bad reverb tank and covered up the problem doing that ? 

I think Peavey was the one that put their tanks in a sort of leather bag at the bottom to isolate it. I had one break loose somehow and the tank was stuck to the speaker magnet and made one hell of a howl. 

I also noticed on a few amps that the level of echo is controlled at the input side of the tank. Even if the echo is turned all the way down you can still get feedback or shock induced noise from it. Why they would design it like that don't ask me. I don't remember what brand it was but I am sure of it.

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#452559

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> >"** Funny how it totally fails to mention the principle of operation. "
> 
> On a couple of guitar amps I had to invert the phase of the
> speaker(s) because of feedback.

** That never works. 

> 
> I think Peavey was the one that put their tanks in a sort of leather bag
> at the bottom to isolate it.
>


** Fender did that waaaayyy before Peavey copied.

It doesn't help much, a cloth bag is hardly a sound barrier. 


BTW  

is there no stupid, self promoting, narcissistic bullshit you will not post ?? 

Just wondering.....



.....  Phil 

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#452562

>"is there no stupid, self promoting, narcissistic bullshit you will not post ?? "

Nope.

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#452574

>"> On a couple of guitar amps I had to invert the phase of the
> speaker(s) because of feedback.

** That never works. "

Worked for me a couple of times. 

But what are you saying, that the reverb tank was bad and I should have replaced it or what ? All I know is that the feedback stopped. Well maybe not the feedback, but its effects which were quite annoying. 

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#452681

>> ** The long springs transmit torsional waves, twisting back and
>> forward so must be driven the  same way. Tiny tube magnets are made
>> to twist by the drive coil assembly while at the far end a near
>> identical transducer converts the twisting back to an electrical
>> signal.
>>
>> The drive assembly is a kind of motor that makes the magnet rotate on
>> its axis about +/- 30degrees. A torsional wave travels fairly slowly
>> down a spring, making for long reverb times.
>>
>> A major benefit of this method is that external vibrations do not
>> induce torsional waves in the springs but only lateral ones and so
>> are largely rejected by the pick up assembly.
>>
>> AFAIK the idea was patented by Hammond in the late 50s - then made
>> famous by Fender in the 60s guitar amps.
>>
>> BYI  I agree, it is not easy to find the above info on the net since
>> the Accutronics site disappeared.
>
> Your followup just now made me aware of that a company named
> Accutronics used to exist. There's a couple of spring reverbs in my
> bone pile. The metal tanks are stamped with "ACCUTRONICS GENEVA,
> ILL." The tanks originally came from PAIA as part of a kit:
>
>    http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=6740K
>    http://www.paia.com/ProdArticles/hotspuse.htm
>
> This site seems like a good source of information:
>
> https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-corner/spring-reverb-tanks-explained-and-compared
>
> Thank you,

Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc. 
http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which 
describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.

I still have a few reverb tanks stored from the days of building my own 
guitar amps.  Fun stuff! It's really spooky how the length and number of 
springs affect the sound you get from them.

Cheers,
Dave M 

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#452692

 Dave M wrote:

> 
> Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc. 
> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
> There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which 
> describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.
> 

 ** Fraid that link is dead. 



....   Phil 

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#453269

Phil Allison wrote:
>  Dave M wrote:
>
>>
>> Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc.
>> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
>> There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which
>> describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.
>>
>
>  ** Fraid that link is dead.


    It works for me.


-- 
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

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#453277

Michael Terrell wrote:
> Phil Allison wrote:
> >  Dave M wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc.
> >> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
> >> There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which
> >> describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.
> >>
> >
> >  ** Fraid that link is dead.
> 
> 
>     It works for me.
> 
> 

 ** So you like looking at blank pages? 




.....  Phil

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#453284

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 7:24:21 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:


> > 
> > 
> >     It works for me.
> > 
> > 
> 
>  ** So you like looking at blank pages? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....  Phil

It works for me too.

                              Dan

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#453302

 dca...@krl.org wrote:
 Phil Allison wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >     It works for me.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> >  ** So you like looking at blank pages? 
> > 
>> It works for me too.
> 

** What do you see?? 


....  Phil

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#453309

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 8:46:19 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
 
> >> It works for me too.
> > 
> 
> ** What do you see?? 
> 
> 
> ....  Phil

Bunch of reverbs on a red background.  and buttons at the top for products, orderinge, history, How reverb works, application, about us.

                                     Dan

I am using Firefox for a browser.

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#453523

dcaster@krl.org wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 8:46:19 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>>> It works for me too.
>>>
>>
>> ** What do you see??
>>
>>
>> ....  Phil
>
> Bunch of reverbs on a red background.  and buttons at the top for products, orderinge, history, How reverb works, application, about us.



    That's what I saw, as well.


> I am using Firefox for a browser.


    Here, as well.


-- 
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

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#453522

Phil Allison wrote:
> Michael Terrell wrote:
>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>  Dave M wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc.
>>>> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
>>>> There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which
>>>> describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  ** Fraid that link is dead.
>>
>>
>>     It works for me.
>>
>>
>
>  ** So you like looking at blank pages?


    No, but I read a lot of you empty posts, anyway.


-- 
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#453817

On 2017-03-20, Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Dave M wrote:
>
>> 
>> Accutronics is now known as Accu-Bell Sound Inc. 
>> http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/
>> There's a link at the top of the home page "How Reverb Works", which 
>> describes the operation of a spring reverb and why it sounds like it does.
>> 
>
>  ** Fraid that link is dead. 

that site appears to require flash for navigation, The how it works stuff may be visible on
http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/main/?skin=sub04_01.html


-- 
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software 

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