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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #447672 > unrolled thread
| Started by | John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-02-14 14:47 -0800 |
| Last post | 2017-02-17 11:06 -0800 |
| Articles | 9 on this page of 89 — 21 participants |
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analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-14 14:47 -0800
Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-14 15:05 -0800
Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-15 10:52 +0800
Re: analog failures bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-14 19:00 -0800
Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-15 11:55 +0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-15 07:53 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 08:30 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-15 10:19 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 10:53 -0800
Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-15 10:58 -0800
Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-15 21:25 -0600
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 20:18 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 15:44 -0500
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 15:30 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:05 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 17:16 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:38 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 17:58 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 15:37 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 18:51 -0500
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 20:27 -0500
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 17:56 -0800
Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-17 21:03 -0600
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 22:36 -0500
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 00:45 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-19 08:32 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-21 12:31 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-23 14:57 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-23 12:02 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 17:27 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 20:39 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 07:41 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 08:04 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 08:16 -0800
Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-16 06:49 +0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-16 07:14 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-16 07:24 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-16 07:41 -0800
Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-17 13:22 +0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 06:58 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 12:26 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:03 -0800
Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-17 21:05 -0600
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 08:07 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 08:20 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 09:20 -0800
Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 00:48 -0500
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-21 12:39 -0800
Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-21 22:54 -0600
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 20:33 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 07:37 -0800
Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-22 15:45 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-23 10:43 -0800
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-23 20:42 -0500
Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-24 03:31 -0600
Re: analog failures grahamholloway@graham65.plus.com - 2017-02-24 06:39 -0800
Re: analog failures Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-02-24 14:58 +0000
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:48 -0800
Re: analog failures pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 04:39 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-26 07:52 -0800
Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-24 09:02 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:44 -0800
Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-26 08:29 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-26 09:46 -0800
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-26 10:11 -0800
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-26 17:55 -0500
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-26 15:09 -0800
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-26 19:30 -0500
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-27 10:37 -0800
Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-24 09:14 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:46 -0800
Re: analog failures Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-26 17:44 -0800
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-27 07:51 -0800
Re: analog failures Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-02-23 21:36 +0200
Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-24 08:38 -0800
Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-24 20:20 -0500
Re: analog failures kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-02-24 17:36 -0800
Re: analog failures Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2017-02-15 03:25 +0000
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-14 19:20 -0800
Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-14 17:46 -0600
Re: analog failures Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-14 17:50 -0700
Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-14 23:49 -0600
Re: analog failures Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-15 07:03 -0700
Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 10:18 -0800
Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-15 15:06 -0600
Re: analog failures legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2017-02-16 23:06 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 07:00 -0800
Re: analog failures legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2017-02-17 13:22 -0500
Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 11:06 -0800
Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]
| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-14 17:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <g697acl28e0pebbau235j5cldp14fb5h8o@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #447677 |
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:53 -0600, Tim Wescott
<seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/
>>
>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems
>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips.
>
>Yup. It's all Jim's fault.
I wondered who would be the "snarker".
Actually, when I have anything exceeding combinational, I have a buddy
who cranks out an SPI bus for me.
As for _device-level_ logic design, I am quite good at that... after
all _device-level_ IS analog... ask Motorola/ON-Semi about my 74HC
designs.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-14 23:49 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <dcmdna7kLM10dj7FnZ2dnUU7-UednZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #447683 |
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:50:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:53 -0600, Tim Wescott > <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote: > >>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin wrote: >> >>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >>> >>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. >> >>Yup. It's all Jim's fault. > > I wondered who would be the "snarker". > > Actually, when I have anything exceeding combinational, I have a buddy > who cranks out an SPI bus for me. > > As for _device-level_ logic design, I am quite good at that... after all > _device-level_ IS analog... ask Motorola/ON-Semi about my 74HC designs. > > ...Jim Thompson No, no. I was blaming you for the _analog_ problems. You sly devil. -- Tim Wescott Control systems, embedded software and circuit design I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested http://www.wescottdesign.com
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-15 07:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <htn8acl4so8jdi669irg1dqvvgst9vdi0j@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #447715 |
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:49:29 -0600, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com>
wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:50:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:53 -0600, Tim Wescott
>> <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/
>>>>
>>>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems
>>>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips.
>>>
>>>Yup. It's all Jim's fault.
>>
>> I wondered who would be the "snarker".
>>
>> Actually, when I have anything exceeding combinational, I have a buddy
>> who cranks out an SPI bus for me.
>>
>> As for _device-level_ logic design, I am quite good at that... after all
>> _device-level_ IS analog... ask Motorola/ON-Semi about my 74HC designs.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>No, no. I was blaming you for the _analog_ problems. You sly devil.
Sno-o-o-ort >:-}
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-15 10:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <lh69achlhdpuh6rroli9dcr1oblt5vghog@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #447715 |
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:49:29 -0600, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote: >On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:50:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: > >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:53 -0600, Tim Wescott >> <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin wrote: >>> >>>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >>>> >>>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >>>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. >>> >>>Yup. It's all Jim's fault. >> >> I wondered who would be the "snarker". >> >> Actually, when I have anything exceeding combinational, I have a buddy >> who cranks out an SPI bus for me. >> >> As for _device-level_ logic design, I am quite good at that... after all >> _device-level_ IS analog... ask Motorola/ON-Semi about my 74HC designs. >> >> ...Jim Thompson > >No, no. I was blaming you for the _analog_ problems. You sly devil. I think that a lot of analog chip designers outsource digital IP modules, things like Ethernet, PCIe, SPI, PLLs, like that. Similarly, a uP or FPGA designer may outsource an ADC to tuck into one corner of the chip. The result is bad documentation, no support, and bugs. We use some ARM chips that have onboard ADCs, and NXP seems to know almost nothing about them. Hardware is quickly catching up with software! -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-15 15:06 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <V-2dnXble60mXznFnZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #447764 |
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:18:52 -0800, John Larkin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:49:29 -0600, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> > wrote: > >>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:50:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:53 -0600, Tim Wescott >>> <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote: >>> >>>>On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >>>>> >>>>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation >>>>> problems with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. >>>> >>>>Yup. It's all Jim's fault. >>> >>> I wondered who would be the "snarker". >>> >>> Actually, when I have anything exceeding combinational, I have a buddy >>> who cranks out an SPI bus for me. >>> >>> As for _device-level_ logic design, I am quite good at that... after >>> all _device-level_ IS analog... ask Motorola/ON-Semi about my 74HC >>> designs. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>No, no. I was blaming you for the _analog_ problems. You sly devil. > > I think that a lot of analog chip designers outsource digital IP > modules, things like Ethernet, PCIe, SPI, PLLs, like that. Similarly, a > uP or FPGA designer may outsource an ADC to tuck into one corner of the > chip. The result is bad documentation, no support, and bugs. > > We use some ARM chips that have onboard ADCs, and NXP seems to know > almost nothing about them. > > Hardware is quickly catching up with software! That's unfortunate, particularly because if you just take a lickum-stickum approach to the design process the analog bits won't work nearly as well as you'd like. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website!
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| From | legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-16 23:06 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <q0tcac94d67goa2e9770ta64c9o3s9idbe@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #447672 |
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ > >My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. They're talking about safety effects. Anything that's untested will be unpredictable, for simple function or otherwise. The test criteria and methods differ between analog and digital. So, often to the more familiar fab processes for either. I'd be more concerned with digital guys doing analog, than the other way around. I expect the former situation greatly outnumbers the reverse. In mixed signal, everything is analog, but they forget that. What may be bugging them is precisely that an analog error involves a fairly small number of elements, where traditionally there are many more ways to 'fail'. Get used to it. RL
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-17 07:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <egohfmF8ge7U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #447968 |
On 2017-02-16 20:06, legg wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin > <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: > >> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >> >> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. > > They're talking about safety effects. > > Anything that's untested will be unpredictable, for simple function or > otherwise. If that were true whole space programs would have to be scrapped. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-17 13:22 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <09feactdnilranl7km7qodps5ivpoa91um@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #448003 |
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 07:00:17 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-16 20:06, legg wrote: >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin >> <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >> >>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >>> >>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. >> >> They're talking about safety effects. >> >> Anything that's untested will be unpredictable, for simple function or >> otherwise. > > >If that were true whole space programs would have to be scrapped. > >[...] I think you'll find that aerospace and zero-g electronics are tested as much as is practicable, prior to deployment. There are many failure avoidance or compensation techniques adopted at the design stage, for such hardware. Again, in the article, they're talking about safety implications of component failure (not reliability) - approaching it as some kind of tail-end consideration entailed on recent attempts to account for software safety effects (long since due and very tricky) and from a perspective of relative ignorance. RL
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-17 11:06 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <egovt7Fbf2sU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #448030 |
On 2017-02-17 10:22, legg wrote: > On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 07:00:17 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-16 20:06, legg wrote: >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:47:00 -0800, John Larkin >>> <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/ >>>> >>>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems >>>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips. >>> >>> They're talking about safety effects. >>> >>> Anything that's untested will be unpredictable, for simple function or >>> otherwise. >> >> >> If that were true whole space programs would have to be scrapped. >> >> [...] > > I think you'll find that aerospace and zero-g electronics are tested > as much as is practicable, prior to deployment. There are many failure > avoidance or compensation techniques adopted at the design stage, for > such hardware. > It can only be tested to some extent. Some things have to be "guaranteed by design". This can also work in electronics here on earth, provided that the designers truly know what they are doing. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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