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IC test clip with LEDs

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  IC test clip with LEDs James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 21:16 +0100
    Re: IC test clip with LEDs not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-10-17 22:34 +0000
      Re: IC test clip with LEDs James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 17:39 +0100
        Re: IC test clip with LEDs Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
        Re: IC test clip with LEDs not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-10-18 21:51 +0000
          Re: IC test clip with LEDs James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-10-20 11:50 +0100
            Re: IC test clip with LEDs Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2018-10-21 08:19 +0000
        Re: IC test clip with LEDs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-23 12:08 -0400
          Re: IC test clip with LEDs jjhudak4@gmail.com - 2018-10-23 11:40 -0700
            Re: IC test clip with LEDs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-25 09:46 -0400
    Re: IC test clip with LEDs "jfeng@my-deja.com" <jfeng@my-deja.com> - 2018-10-17 15:56 -0700
      Re: IC test clip with LEDs James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 17:40 +0100
    Re: IC test clip with LEDs three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 13:41 -0700

#6376 — IC test clip with LEDs

I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and show 
the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair). Something like this

https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270

Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they called?


-- 
James Harris

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#6379

In sci.electronics.components James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and show 
> the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair). Something like this
> 
> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
> 
> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they called?

This is my take on such a device:
http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/logicvis/index.htm

Another DIY design was published in the Aug. 1987 issue of the
Australian version of "Electronics Today International", with the
largely inaccurate name of "In-Circuit Digital IC Tester".
Therefore I made it available on my webpage about DIY IC tester
designs:
http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/ictesters/index.htm

As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the outputs
of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues in
circuits that can't supply enough extra current.

Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't
know of any still available.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#6381

On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In sci.electronics.components James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and show
>> the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair). Something like this
>>
>> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
>>
>> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they called?
> 
> This is my take on such a device:
> http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/logicvis/index.htm
> 
> Another DIY design was published in the Aug. 1987 issue of the
> Australian version of "Electronics Today International", with the
> largely inaccurate name of "In-Circuit Digital IC Tester".
> Therefore I made it available on my webpage about DIY IC tester
> designs:
> http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/ictesters/index.htm

That brings back memories!

> 
> As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the outputs
> of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues in
> circuits that can't supply enough extra current.
> 
> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't
> know of any still available.

I wonder why they fell out of favour. Is there a better way to monitor 
digital ICs in-circuit these days?


-- 
James Harris

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#6383

In article <pqad0s$ckg$1@dont-email.me>, james.harris.1@gmail.com 
says...
> 
> > As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the outputs
> > of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues in
> > circuits that can't supply enough extra current.
> > 
> > Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't
> > know of any still available.
> 
> I wonder why they fell out of favour. Is there a better way to monitor 
> digital ICs in-circuit these days?
> 
> 
> 

I just gave away something like that to a young boy that was bread 
boarding some 7400 series logic circuits.  Had it for years but hardly 
ever used it.  I don't recall who made it,but it was in a box that had 
that clip on thing and 2 other logic probes.  I think one gave out 
pulses and one would light up a led on a pulse.  Seems they could be 
switched for either 5 volts and the one for cmos.

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#6385

In sci.electronics.components James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> 
>> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't
>> know of any still available.
> 
> I wonder why they fell out of favour. Is there a better way to monitor 
> digital ICs in-circuit these days?

Of course there are Logic Analysers, but they were around back then
too. These days there are some cheap options for connecting to
a PC though, eg.
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Logic_Pirate

The clip-on indicators were easier to use, but I think the key
limitation is that the only signals that can be reliably
analysed are those slow enough for the eye to observe changing
state. That's why I wanted to build one that allowed various
methods to be used in order to sample and effectively slow
down the display.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#6387

On 18/10/2018 22:51, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In sci.electronics.components James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't
>>> know of any still available.
>>
>> I wonder why they fell out of favour. Is there a better way to monitor
>> digital ICs in-circuit these days?
> 
> Of course there are Logic Analysers, but they were around back then
> too. These days there are some cheap options for connecting to
> a PC though, eg.
> http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Logic_Pirate
> 
> The clip-on indicators were easier to use, but I think the key
> limitation is that the only signals that can be reliably
> analysed are those slow enough for the eye to observe changing
> state. That's why I wanted to build one that allowed various
> methods to be used in order to sample and effectively slow
> down the display.

That's true. As just one example, I have a computer board with a 
4-to-16-line decoder which I suspect of possibly asserting more than one 
output at a time or of not asserting some outputs at all. But without 
single stepping the CPU or running a small test program, which is not 
currently possible, I'm not going to see much from pin states which vary 
so quickly.

I wasn't aware of logic analysers. They sound far better if they have 
enough channels. I see many with 8 or 16 channels but a more expensive 
Hantek LA5034 which apparently has 34 channels: 
https://www.circuitspecialists.com/34-ch-usb-logic-analyzer-la-5034.html. 
Does it look good as a PC-based analyser which could be used in many 
situations, or would you recommend a different one?

Whether such a piece of kit would be generally useful or not, such an 
analyser wouldn't help in this specific case as it could not be used to 
check the above decoder without also using a test program to cycle 
through the inputs. The decoder is not socketed so I guess all I can do 
is unsolder the chip and test the 16 permutations of its inputs on a 
breadboard. If I'm wrong and there is a better approach please say!


-- 
James Harris

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#6388

In sci.electronics.components James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I wasn't aware of logic analysers. They sound far better if they have 
> enough channels. I see many with 8 or 16 channels but a more expensive 
> Hantek LA5034 which apparently has 34 channels: 
> https://www.circuitspecialists.com/34-ch-usb-logic-analyzer-la-5034.html. 
> Does it look good as a PC-based analyser which could be used in many 
> situations, or would you recommend a different one?

I don't have any recommendations, but the specs for that model look like
they should suit your application. Make sure that whichever device you
buy supports all the logic signals (TTL/CMOS etc.) that you might want
to use, at all the voltages that you might be running circuits at (the
linked one should).

> Whether such a piece of kit would be generally useful or not, such an 
> analyser wouldn't help in this specific case as it could not be used to 
> check the above decoder without also using a test program to cycle 
> through the inputs. The decoder is not socketed so I guess all I can do 
> is unsolder the chip and test the 16 permutations of its inputs on a 
> breadboard. If I'm wrong and there is a better approach please say!

Well I just gave you a link to my page on IC testers, hint hint. Some
support various approaches to in-circuit tests, but new testers are a
bit thin on the ground.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#6389

On 10/18/2018 12:39 PM, James Harris wrote:
> On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> In sci.electronics.components James Harris
>> <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and
>>> show the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair).
>>> Something like this
>>> 
>>> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
>>> 
>>> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they
>>> called?
>> 
>> This is my take on such a device: 
>> http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/logicvis/index.htm
>> 
>> Another DIY design was published in the Aug. 1987 issue of the 
>> Australian version of "Electronics Today International", with the 
>> largely inaccurate name of "In-Circuit Digital IC Tester". 
>> Therefore I made it available on my webpage about DIY IC tester 
>> designs: http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/ictesters/index.htm
> 
> That brings back memories!
> 
>> 
>> As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the
>> outputs of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues
>> in circuits that can't supply enough extra current.
>> 
>> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't 
>> know of any still available.
> 
> I wonder why they fell out of favour.

They aren't much use for anything faster than a burglar alarm.   Usually
they just told you high, low or 'pulsing'.  Nobody builds burglar alarms
out of TTL anymore.

> 
Is there a better way to monitor
> digital ICs in-circuit these days?

A logic analyzer.  You can get slow USB ones for under $100, and pretty
fast ones for $300.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
https://hobbs-eo.com

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#6390

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 12:08:09 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 10/18/2018 12:39 PM, James Harris wrote:
> > On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> >> In sci.electronics.components James Harris
> >> <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and
> >>> show the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair).
> >>> Something like this
> >>> 
> >>> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
> >>> 
> >>> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they
> >>> called?
> >> 
> >> This is my take on such a device: 
> >> http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/logicvis/index.htm
> >> 
> >> Another DIY design was published in the Aug. 1987 issue of the 
> >> Australian version of "Electronics Today International", with the 
> >> largely inaccurate name of "In-Circuit Digital IC Tester". 
> >> Therefore I made it available on my webpage about DIY IC tester 
> >> designs: http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/ictesters/index.htm
> > 
> > That brings back memories!
> > 
> >> 
> >> As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the
> >> outputs of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues
> >> in circuits that can't supply enough extra current.
> >> 
> >> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't 
> >> know of any still available.
> > 
> > I wonder why they fell out of favour.
> 
> They aren't much use for anything faster than a burglar alarm.   Usually
> they just told you high, low or 'pulsing'.  Nobody builds burglar alarms
> out of TTL anymore.
> 
> > 
> Is there a better way to monitor
> > digital ICs in-circuit these days?
> 
> A logic analyzer.  You can get slow USB ones for under $100, and pretty
> fast ones for $300.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Phil Hobbs
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal Consultant
> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
> 
> http://electrooptical.net
> https://hobbs-eo.com

Just curious, can you supply a pointer or two to some of the high end analyizers at ~$300-400?
Thanks
J

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#6391

On 10/23/2018 02:40 PM, jjhudak4@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 12:08:09 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 10/18/2018 12:39 PM, James Harris wrote:
>>> On 17/10/2018 23:34, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> In sci.electronics.components James Harris
>>>> <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and
>>>>> show the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair).
>>>>> Something like this
>>>>>
>>>>> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
>>>>>
>>>>> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they
>>>>> called?
>>>>
>>>> This is my take on such a device: 
>>>> http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/logicvis/index.htm
>>>>
>>>> Another DIY design was published in the Aug. 1987 issue of the 
>>>> Australian version of "Electronics Today International", with the 
>>>> largely inaccurate name of "In-Circuit Digital IC Tester". 
>>>> Therefore I made it available on my webpage about DIY IC tester 
>>>> designs: http://computernerdkev.heliohost.org/ictesters/index.htm
>>>
>>> That brings back memories!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As noted in my description there, it powers the LEDs from the
>>>> outputs of the chip that it's clipped to, which might cause issues
>>>> in circuits that can't supply enough extra current.
>>>>
>>>> Similar pre-built devices were sold at the same time, but I don't 
>>>> know of any still available.
>>>
>>> I wonder why they fell out of favour.
>>
>> They aren't much use for anything faster than a burglar alarm.   Usually
>> they just told you high, low or 'pulsing'.  Nobody builds burglar alarms
>> out of TTL anymore.
>>
>>>
>> Is there a better way to monitor
>>> digital ICs in-circuit these days?
>>
>> A logic analyzer.  You can get slow USB ones for under $100, and pretty
>> fast ones for $300.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
>> Principal Consultant
>> ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
>> Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
>> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
>>
>> http://electrooptical.net
>> https://hobbs-eo.com
> 
> Just curious, can you supply a pointer or two to some of the high end analyizers at ~$300-400?
> Thanks
> J
> 
A $300 analyzer is pretty far from "high-end".  Have a look on
Amazon--that's where I found them.

I've never actually needed a logic analyzer--the FPGA/CPLD tools and a
scope have always been enough.  (I'm not a big FPGA guy myself.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
https://hobbs-eo.com

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#6380

Do you mean something like this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Packard-HP-548A-Logic-Clip/283214879522?epid=1100247702&hash=item41f0ec1b22:g:CuYAAOSw21Rbxt9W:rk:1:pf:0

I think this was only for TTL levels and 5V power.

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#6382

On 17/10/2018 23:56, jfeng@my-deja.com wrote:
> Do you mean something like this?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Packard-HP-548A-Logic-Clip/283214879522?epid=1100247702&hash=item41f0ec1b22:g:CuYAAOSw21Rbxt9W:rk:1:pf:0

Yes, that's the kind of thing. I take it they are a bit passe these 
days. That one certainly looks ancient.

> 
> I think this was only for TTL levels and 5V power.
> 


-- 
James Harris

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#6384

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:16:33 PM UTC-4, James Harris wrote:
> I remember years ago seeing a clip that would fit over an IC and show 
> the logic state of each pin on an LED (or an LED pair). Something like this
> 
> https://uk.farnell.com/3m/923690-08/test-clip-dil-8way/dp/178270
> 
> Do such clips still exist but with LEDs on top and what are they called?
> 
> 
> -- 
> James Harris


I remember seeing several variations of the IC Clip that had a housing on top of the clip that contained some logic and LEDs over each pin.  IIRC, Jameco used to sell them and the one I had was made by SWTC (South West Technical Corp)IIRC - a kit mfg in the mid-70s.
I never found it all that useful except to find stuck outputs.  Was not very useful if the logic was driven by some trigger that you had to somehow set up. 
ALso, catching a 1ms or less pulse with your eye is kinda tough.
No clue if anything like that exists now.
To trace out logic, I use my 16-digital channel MSO.  There are 'logic boxes' around that effectively are the 16 or 32 channel DI of a MSO.  Cant recall their names ATM.
Good luck
J

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