Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > rec.music.classical > #15656 > unrolled thread

Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live)

Back to article view | Back to rec.music.classical

Contents

  Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) Roland van Gaalen <vangaalenusenet@gmail.com> - 2024-07-07 00:34 +0200
    Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) Roland van Gaalen <vangaalenusenet@gmail.com> - 2024-07-07 00:46 +0200
      Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) herst@online.nl (Herman) - 2024-07-07 12:22 +0000
        Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) Roland van Gaalen <vangaalenusenet@gmail.com> - 2024-07-07 16:23 +0200
          Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) herst@online.nl (Herman) - 2024-07-07 14:47 +0000
            Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) Roland van Gaalen <vangaalenusenet@gmail.com> - 2024-07-07 18:47 +0200
    Re: Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live) Joerg Walther <joerg.walther@magenta.de> - 2025-07-30 15:06 +0200

#15656 — Mahler 5 / Vienna Philharmonic / Bernstein / 1988 (live)

Is the 1988 live recording of Mahler's Fifth Symphony performed by the 
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein a holy cow?

I still (*) think it is bad, especially the first part (movements 1 and 
2), which sounds as if Berstein was imitating an inexperienced, 
untalented, cluelesss conductor to make a mockery of Mahler's 
sophisticated music.

Ref.: DGG 477 6334

(*) I already criticized this recording on 
rec.music.classical.recordings in 2008. My opinion has not changed. And 
again I think the finale is fine.
-- 
Roland van Gaalen
The Netherlands

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#15657

On 07/07/2024 00:34, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> Is the 1988 live recording of Mahler's Fifth Symphony performed by the 
> Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein a holy cow?

I meant: sacred cow.
It's been a while since a lived in an English speaking country!

> 
> I still (*) think it is bad, especially the first part (movements 1 and 
> 2), which sounds as if Berstein was imitating an inexperienced, 
> untalented, cluelesss conductor to make a mockery of Mahler's 
> sophisticated music.
> 
> Ref.: DGG 477 6334
> 
> (*) I already criticized this recording on 
> rec.music.classical.recordings in 2008. My opinion has not changed. And 
> again I think the finale is fine.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15658

Recently I watched a documentary about Edo de Waart, from a couple years
back.

He talked about the time he won the Mitropoulos conducting competition,
in 1964. As a result of this he got to assist with Leonard Bernstein and
the NYPO for a year. Decades later he was still shocked how bad the
orchestra was back then and how Bernstein was happy with the ugly sound
he created. 'Like a tin bucket'.

Why do I quote this? I think with Bernstein a lot of it is just his
charisma what you're hearing and if you don't buy the charisma it can
happen you hear a tin bucket.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15659

On 07/07/2024 14:22, Herman wrote:
 > Recently I watched a documentary about Edo de Waart, from a couple years
 > back.
 >
 > He talked about the time he won the Mitropoulos conducting competition,
 > in 1964. As a result of this he got to assist with Leonard Bernstein and
 > the NYPO for a year. Decades later he was still shocked how bad the
 > orchestra was back then and how Bernstein was happy with the ugly sound
 > he created. 'Like a tin bucket'.
 >
 > Why do I quote this? I think with Bernstein a lot of it is just his
 > charisma what you're hearing and if you don't buy the charisma it can
 > happen you hear a tin bucket.
I kept and will keep this CD (Mahler 5/Vienna Philh./Bernstein) because 
the performance is supposed to be 'thrilling', and I don't get it but 
don't trust the permanence of my own judgment.

In 1989 or 1990 I attended a Mahler concert for the first time: the same 
piece performed by the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra in Davies Hall, 
San Francisco, with Herbert Blomstedt conducting. The concert was 
impressive; I understood from two of my friends that it was obviously 
'well rehearsed' and that the CD to buy was the one by Bernstein.

Nevertheless, I bought another CD, also made in 1988, by the Berlin 
Philharmonic with Haitink conducting. It was judged to be OK, but not so 
thrilling.

By the way, I remember Tower Records (2280 Market Street) being a 
wonderful CD store in the neighborhood, with a large classical music 
departmment. In those years, I also bought some CDs by the Kronos 
Quartet there and also a new Bruckner 4 by the Concertgebouw Orchestra 
with Chailly conducting, as well as some by the Smiths.

Around the corner, or a block down the street, or on Haight Street, or 
on Telegraph Avenue accross the Bay in Berkeley, Space Lady may have 
been performing on the sidewalk; I stopped to listen to her numerous 
times, and remember her idiosyncratic reading of this particular song:

https://youtu.be/l2z1Z9ZL1hY?si=68LYX-xbrBlg5gSX

Anyway, some 35 years later I confirm that -- in my opinion! -- 
Haitink's restraint and subtlety greatly benefit at least the first two 
or three movements of Mahler 5 in comparison with Bernstein's 
performance, which strikes me as unidiomatic, unrefined, and even dull 
(apart from the finale).
--
Roland van Gaalen
The Netherlands

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15660

Those Haitink Mahler recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic are
generally regarded as lacking in energy. But who cares about 'generally
regarded'?

I happen to have a copy of Haitink's Mahler 7th with the Berlin
Philharmonic. It's also not totally stellar, compared to  Haithink M7
that remains etched in my memory. This was a performance in the
Concertgebouw with the London Philharmonic. It was in the early
nineties, not so many years after Haitink had stopped conducting the
RCO.

Straight from the first roll on the big drum, early on, it was clear
that this was going to be an utterly dark, black take on Mahler 7. The
Scherzo in the middle was a unrelieved nightmare. It was stunning, the
entire symphony.

Another amazing live Mahler with Haitink was in the second half of the
nineties, on a BBC Promenade concert with the Berlin Philharmonic. The
Sixth. I listened to this one on a car radio parked in a vacation house
in the French Provence. It was yet another amazing relentless Haitink
performance, the way the coda of the 1st movement just poured out,
unforgettable...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15661

On 07/07/2024 16:47, Herman wrote:
 > Those Haitink Mahler recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic are
 > generally regarded as lacking in energy. [...]
Yes.

Nevertheless, over the years Haitink's studio recordings of the Mahler 
symphonies (*) have struck me as being in good taste: unmannered, 
refined, subtle, suitably serious if not pleasant sounding rather than 
overwhelming (**). I don't remember ever considering the option of 
culling them from my CD collection.

(*) I have the Concertgebouw box and most of the Berlin Philharmonic 
recordings (apart from the Christmas broadcasts and live recordings of 
#6 and #7).

(**) Come to think of it, I not sure about the syrupy adagietto of #5 
and certain inherently (in my opinion) rather pompous movements, for 
example the finale of #2; the finale of #3; much or all of #8.).
--
Roland van Gaalen
The Netherlands

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15805

Roland van Gaalen wrote:

>Is the 1988 live recording of Mahler's Fifth Symphony performed by the 
>Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein a holy cow?

Sorry to chime in so late (and this actually is my first posting here),
but for me this actually is a holy cow, but maybe just for one reason: I
was there when it was recorded in the Alte Oper in Frankfurt. (In the
first part they played the "small" A-Major symphony by Mozart, which
Bernstein conducted by heart.) I haven't listened to the CD in quite a
while, so my memory may be a bit dim, but what is it you actually do not
like about the first two movements? Just three derogatory adjectives do
not really help me to understand your criticism...

-jw-
-- 
And now for something completely different...

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | rec.music.classical

csiph-web