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growth inhibitor?

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  growth inhibitor? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-01 04:36 -0700
    Re: growth inhibitor? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2025-08-02 08:05 -0400
      Re: growth inhibitor? Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> - 2025-08-02 08:20 -0700
        Re: growth inhibitor? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 03:05 -0700
      Re: growth inhibitor? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 03:03 -0700
        Re: growth inhibitor? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2025-08-03 08:36 -0400
          Re: growth inhibitor? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 20:30 -0700
            Re: growth inhibitor? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2025-08-04 07:34 -0400
      Re: growth inhibitor? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-03 03:07 -0700
        Re: growth inhibitor? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2025-08-03 08:40 -0400

#22777 — growth inhibitor?

Hi All,

I have given up on trying to grow garlic.  I keep getting
perfectly formed plants in miniature.

So this year I planted a pepper plant (from the nursery)
in my garlic bed.  It is perfectly healthy.  But it
has only grown three inches in two months.
No flowers and no peppers either.  It should
be two or more feet tall by now.  Exactly thing that
happened to my garlic.

Peppers grow fine elsewhere in my garden.

Is it possible that the soil in my garlic bed, which
feels great to the touch, has some kind of growth
inhibitor in it?

It has had lots of chicken poo, bone meal, worm
casings, water, etc.  This soil got really
pampered trying to get my garlic to grow.  Nothing
worked.  Now the same thing on my pepper plant!

Purselane loves my garlic path though.

Is so should I dig out all the soil and replace it?

Yours in confusion,
-T

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#22778

T wrote:

...
> Is it possible that the soil in my garlic bed, which
> feels great to the touch, has some kind of growth
> inhibitor in it?

  sure, but it may also just be too much organic material
and not enough mineral as things like clay can help hold
water and nutrients.


> It has had lots of chicken poo, bone meal, worm
> casings, water, etc.  This soil got really
> pampered trying to get my garlic to grow.  Nothing
> worked.  Now the same thing on my pepper plant!
>
> Purselane loves my garlic path though.

  if you want it around it's great, if you don't it is
very hard to remove completely.  the seeds can persist
for 40+ years...


> Is so should I dig out all the soil and replace it?

  in the past you've talked of pots and holes where you
were planting.  are these those?

  pretty much mixing and spreading out concentrations of
materials can help if there are local issues (like if you
have spots that collect and hold water when certain kinds
of plants don't do well with that).

  the more general problem is that when you bring in any
outside amendments or materials you may not be getting
what you expect and yes sometimes such things can be
contaminated and cause problems.  years ago there was an
item in the news about compost that had herbicides in it
which took some time to resolve.


  songbird

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#22779

On 8/2/2025 5:05 AM, songbird wrote:
> T wrote:
> 
> ...
>> Is it possible that the soil in my garlic bed, which
>> feels great to the touch, has some kind of growth
>> inhibitor in it?
> 
>    sure, but it may also just be too much organic material
> and not enough mineral as things like clay can help hold
> water and nutrients.
> 
> 
>> It has had lots of chicken poo, bone meal, worm
>> casings, water, etc.  This soil got really
>> pampered trying to get my garlic to grow.  Nothing
>> worked.  Now the same thing on my pepper plant!
>>
>> Purselane loves my garlic path though.
> 
>    if you want it around it's great, if you don't it is
> very hard to remove completely.  the seeds can persist
> for 40+ years...
> 
> 
>> Is so should I dig out all the soil and replace it?
> 
>    in the past you've talked of pots and holes where you
> were planting.  are these those?
> 
>    pretty much mixing and spreading out concentrations of
> materials can help if there are local issues (like if you
> have spots that collect and hold water when certain kinds
> of plants don't do well with that).
> 
>    the more general problem is that when you bring in any
> outside amendments or materials you may not be getting
> what you expect and yes sometimes such things can be
> contaminated and cause problems.  years ago there was an
> item in the news about compost that had herbicides in it
> which took some time to resolve.
> 
> 
>    songbird

Could do a soil test. my local "conservation district" offers 5 free 
soil tests per family per "lifetime", then charges, IIRC $25 for 
additional tests.

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#22781

On 8/2/25 8:20 AM, Bob F wrote:
> Could do a soil test. my local "conservation district" offers 5 free 
> soil tests per family per "lifetime", then charges, IIRC $25 for 
> additional test

Our extension service does not do such things.   Can you
recommend a paid service?

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#22780

On 8/2/25 5:05 AM, songbird wrote:
> T wrote:
> 
> ...
>> Is it possible that the soil in my garlic bed, which
>> feels great to the touch, has some kind of growth
>> inhibitor in it?
> 
>    sure, but it may also just be too much organic material
> and not enough mineral as things like clay can help hold
> water and nutrients.
> 
> 
>> It has had lots of chicken poo, bone meal, worm
>> casings, water, etc.  This soil got really
>> pampered trying to get my garlic to grow.  Nothing
>> worked.  Now the same thing on my pepper plant!
>>
>> Purselane loves my garlic path though.
> 
>    if you want it around it's great, if you don't it is
> very hard to remove completely.  the seeds can persist
> for 40+ years...
> 
> 
>> Is so should I dig out all the soil and replace it?
> 
>    in the past you've talked of pots and holes where you
> were planting.  are these those?
> 
>    pretty much mixing and spreading out concentrations of
> materials can help if there are local issues (like if you
> have spots that collect and hold water when certain kinds
> of plants don't do well with that).
> 
>    the more general problem is that when you bring in any
> outside amendments or materials you may not be getting
> what you expect and yes sometimes such things can be
> contaminated and cause problems.  years ago there was an
> item in the news about compost that had herbicides in it
> which took some time to resolve.
> 
> 
>    songbird


It is a ground trough.  Basically it is a six foot long by
1-1/2 foot wide by 1-1/2 foot deep trough carved out of the
hard pack lake bed sediment (I had to use an axe to cut
it out.)

It is filled with half peat moss and some left over
silt powder, plus chicken poop, worm casing, dug
under weeds, leaves and purselane, etc..

I am thinking of digging it up and replacing it with
something.  What would you suggest?

-T

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#22783

T wrote:
...
> It is filled with half peat moss and some left over
> silt powder, plus chicken poop, worm casing, dug
> under weeds, leaves and purselane, etc..
>
> I am thinking of digging it up and replacing it with
> something.  What would you suggest?

  i'd leave it where it is and add a few bags of topsoil
to it.  peat moss is ok as a partial amendment but 1/2 is
too much.  with the type of subsoil and conditions you
have there i don't think it will hurt anything to leave
it alone, plus some things may grow well in there.

  good luck.

  gotta get outside while i can and hopefully finish up
the garden i'm weeding - going to get hot later.


  songbird

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#22785

On 8/3/25 5:36 AM, songbird wrote:
>> I am thinking of digging it up and replacing it with
>> something.  What would you suggest?

>    i'd leave it where it is and add a few bags of topsoil
> to it.  peat moss is ok as a partial amendment but 1/2 is
> too much.  with the type of subsoil and conditions you
> have there i don't think it will hurt anything to leave
> it alone

I have some dumb follow up questions:

I am planning on removing the top six to eight
inches (it will catch on the micro garlic I
left in too) replacing it with organic top soil.

Do I just place the top soil on top of what is
left or do I mix it in?

And no more burying weeds and purslane either?

Does this one look good?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/NEARSOURCE-ORGANICS-Organic-In-Ground-Garden-Soil-1-5-cu-ft-Peat-Free-OMRI-Listed-693/321967297

Says no peat.

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#22786

T wrote:
...
> Does this one look good?
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/NEARSOURCE-ORGANICS-Organic-In-Ground-Garden-Soil-1-5-cu-ft-Peat-Free-OMRI-Listed-693/321967297
>
> Says no peat.

  when speaking of soil qualities and composition using
the word organic means we're speaking of what percent of
the soil composition is made of carbon based molecules.
it is not the same as talking about organic gardening
(even if it is a related topic :) ).

  basic soil science and evaluating your garden soils
should be something you learn.  there are plenty of
youtube, etc. videos and explanations online.  go do
some reading/research.  it's a topic well worth knowing
for any gardener.

  so when i am speaking of topsoil i am speaking of soil
which is mostly mineral (that is it is not primarily
carbon based materials) that means it is a mix of sand,
silt and clay and you want a certain blend which is not
too much clay for really good garden soil but you also
do not want one that is almost all sand.  and then
when you have that mix done right you add some organic
materials to it which provide nutrients and additional
benefits - but overall garlic doesn't need a huge amount
of those organic amendments.  5% is probably plenty but
also there are the other nutrients (macros like NPK and
the micros like sulphur, boron, copper, manganese, etc.)

  so from this you can see that having 50+% peat is a
really high organic material content and likely a part
of the problem.  also if you understand what composting
is about you would know that having a lot of carbon in
your soil is going to mean your nutrient availability
is likely to be a challenge (carbon and nitrogen needs
to be balanced in a certain proportion to get composting
to happen and if that balance is off that means that you
may have too much of either and the results won't be as
good as they could be otherwise).

  mixing weeds in can cause issues too but that's a
whole different topic.  i'd not do that but put them
on the surface to act as a mulch to help hold in 
moisture for your area as it must bake there...  burying
weeds means you are composting in the soil and that can
include fermentations and other reactions which you may
not really want near a developing bulb.

  overall, mixing some organic materials in with your
garden soil is a good thing, but overdoing it may be an
issue and i do think in your case it is...

  so going back to evaluating the product you have
linked above how much of it is organic materials?  do
you think adding even more organic materials to a soil
that is already primarily organic materials is going
to improve it when that may be the problem?

  aside from how expensive it is it's just not topsoil.
you should be able to get topsoil for much less than
that - talk to a landscaping supplier.


  songbird

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#22782

On 8/2/25 5:05 AM, songbird wrote:
>> Purselane loves my garlic path though.
>    if you want it around it's great, if you don't it is
> very hard to remove completely.  the seeds can persist
> for 40+ years...

It is easy to pull out and I occasionally dig it under
to amend my sold.   And the better of the branches,
I will occasionally eat.

I have found it great as a companion plant to protect
soil evaporation

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#22784

T wrote:
> On 8/2/25 5:05 AM, songbird wrote:
>>> Purselane loves my garlic path though.
>>    if you want it around it's great, if you don't it is
>> very hard to remove completely.  the seeds can persist
>> for 40+ years...
>
> It is easy to pull out and I occasionally dig it under
> to amend my sold.   And the better of the branches,
> I will occasionally eat.

  it's not easy to pull out here in most gardens as we
have enough clay to make it rather hard.  when i walk
on most of my gardens there's no imprint of my shoes
as i walk.  only a few areas have better soil because
it's been brought in or amended enough to improve it
over the years but that is only a small area (and most
of it is also outside the fenced gardens hahaha...).


> I have found it great as a companion plant to protect
> soil evaporation

  yes, it will provide some shade and cover but i don't
want it all over the place and that is what it does here
if given a chance.

  i am glad it is edible in parts as long as you're not
worried about too many oxylates.  unfortunately Mom won't
eat it and i'm not in the mood that often to eat it either
but i will if i ever have to.  :)


  songbird

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