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Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW

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  Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW Richard Smith <null@void.com> - 2026-09-28 07:45 +0100
    Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-28 09:04 -0400
      Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-28 12:11 -0400
      Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-28 18:01 -0400
        Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-29 12:26 -0400
      Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW Richard Smith <null@void.com> - 2026-09-29 19:33 +0100
        Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-30 07:15 -0400
          Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> - 2026-09-30 14:01 -0700
            Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-30 18:44 -0400
              Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-01 07:37 -0400
    Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-09-28 13:29 -0400
    Re: Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> - 2026-09-28 11:18 -0700

#543732 — Watched tank running day at Bovington (UK) FWIW

For what it's worth...
went 2 days ago to Bovington camp tank museum for "running" day - of
mainly WW2 armoured vehicles.

I can cite what I have studied about tanks. First time ever seeing
tanks running.  I set myself the goal of watching and absorbing...

Someone from the museum explained the cost in fuel (petrol/gasoline,
diesel) runs into 5 figures GBPpounds (close to US$) *each day* - the
admission cost from thousands of people barely covers.

Petrol/gasoline fueled tanks (the most) popping and banging away.
Name of day heavily distorted by the only running WW2 German Tiger
tank in the World (?) appearing.  Heat-haze of gasoline being burned...

The amazing Soviet / Russian T34 (a T34/85) - one of very few
diesel-engined tanks - blatantly displaying its crudity yet brilliance.

You folk are in the main experts.  I will only comment - I am glad I
saw.  Seeing is understanding a lot...

Best wishes

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#543733

"Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m1a4p1swlt.fsf@Admins-Air.Home...

For what it's worth...
went 2 days ago to Bovington camp tank museum for "running" day - of
mainly WW2 armoured vehicles.

I can cite what I have studied about tanks. First time ever seeing
tanks running.  I set myself the goal of watching and absorbing...

Someone from the museum explained the cost in fuel (petrol/gasoline,
diesel) runs into 5 figures GBPpounds (close to US$) *each day* - the
admission cost from thousands of people barely covers.

Petrol/gasoline fueled tanks (the most) popping and banging away.
Name of day heavily distorted by the only running WW2 German Tiger
tank in the World (?) appearing.  Heat-haze of gasoline being burned...

The amazing Soviet / Russian T34 (a T34/85) - one of very few
diesel-engined tanks - blatantly displaying its crudity yet brilliance.

You folk are in the main experts.  I will only comment - I am glad I
saw.  Seeing is understanding a lot...

Best wishes

---------------------------------------

There are two tank museums about an hour from here in opposite directions. 
The operations manager of this one is a friend.
https://www.americanheritagemuseum.org/jml/panther/
They have a live demo October 10 & 11.

I haven't visited this one yet.
https://wrightmuseum.org/

Tank driving was expensive and I hadn't been well coordinated driving a 
clutch and brake bulldozer so I settled for a half-track ride in the woods, 
which was like a roller coaster without seatbelts.

Being a motorhead I'd love to see the inner workings, some of which are 
visible in the tank repair shop demo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_R-975_Whirlwind

Their machine shop contained large, old, simple machine tools appropriate to 
WW2 tasks.

Bovington has a functional Tiger I and broken Tiger II,  there's a running 
Tiger II in Saumur, France. As the war progressed bombing and lack of 
alloying metals cost German industry the ability to make adequately strong 
tank transmission gears, as well as stressed aero engine components.
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/jx6uiu/why_did_germanys_biggest_wwii_tanks_always_have/

This was my usual ride in the Army because it had a safe to contain 
classified material. It was not much fun to drive, slow on the Autobahn and 
too wide for back roads.
https://www.nf6x.net/1999/10/m109a3-2-5-ton-6x6-shop-van/
We had Army versions of civilian vehicles such as the Suburban but no money 
for repairs when they broke. US forces in Europe were starved to support 
Vietnam. At least we could order Jeep parts privately from J.C.Whitney. 
Performance parts to make them faster also made them more likely to flip.

On a narrow winding back road in the Black Forest I had to drive my VW into 
the woods to avoid an oncoming convoy of British tanks. I took maximum 
advantage of knowing some German and being able to navigate my way around.

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#543734

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:119doj7$2bq1k$1@dont-email.me...

>Tank driving was expensive and I hadn't been well coordinated maneuvering a 
>clutch and brake bulldozer so I settled for a half-track ride in the woods, 
>which was like a roller coaster without seatbelts.

I also can't steer a tail-dragger plane with toe brakes, or leave a straight 
wake behind a sailboat. Maybe with more practice. I did learn to operate the 
four controls separately on a sliding dirt bike.

https://www.americanheritagemuseum.org/tank-driving-experiences-and-tank-rides/m4-sherman-wwii-tank-driving-experience/

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#543737

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:119doj7$2bq1k$1@dont-email.me...

Bovington has a functional Tiger I and broken Tiger II,  there's a running
Tiger II in Saumur, France. As the war progressed bombing and lack of
alloying metals cost German industry the ability to make adequately strong
tank transmission gears, as well as stressed aero engine components.
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/jx6uiu/why_did_germanys_biggest_wwii_tanks_always_have/

--------------------------------

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d1810846e4b69000116772f/t/628c00db380dc66f9a261a85/1653342427999/Tanks+and+Tungsten+-+Germany%27s+Little+Big+Problem.pdf

Straight cut spur gears can be made on simple milling machines like mine 
while more complex geometries require rotating the gear blank in exact 
synchronization with the motion of the cutting tool. I've read that US 
daylight bombing that targeted vital factories significantly hurt German 
machine tool and war production manufacturing capability, as did the 
hydrogen peroxide aircraft and U-boot propulsion programs that robbed the 
rest of industry of already scarce nickel and other alloying metals. This 
book mentions the problem.
https://www.calum-douglas.com/current-book-the-secret-horsepower-race/

A measure of the difference is that German aero engines needed half again 
the displacement to match the power of Allied engines.

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#543739

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:119eo2i$2ofnn$1@dont-email.me...

>I've read that US daylight bombing that targeted vital factories 
>significantly hurt German machine tool and war production manufacturing 
>capability,

That's actually a complex and controversial subject with each combatant 
having a different viewpoint that favors their capabilities and 
accomplishments. 

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#543740

> https://www.nf6x.net/1999/10/m109a3-2-5-ton-6x6-shop-van/
Good run-around to have :-)

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#543741

"Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m1bj9faovs.fsf@void.com...

> https://www.nf6x.net/1999/10/m109a3-2-5-ton-6x6-shop-van/
Good run-around to have :-)
-------------------------------

Impossible to park in civilian spaces, as at Autobahn rest stops. I liked 
the internal and external size of the 1970's VW camper van, but couldn't 
keep up with its road salt rust. That's why I've improved my ability to form 
sheet metal into repair panels and mig weld them.

The rivnuts are more trouble than expected because their heads space the 
patch outward on curves and shift the alignment of other holes. The Hardell 
tool doesn't reliably clinch 1/4-20 stainless rivnuts tight enough to not 
spin. Tightening a Gr8 bolt in them bottoms them out tight enough. I turned 
a sleeve bushing with a Vise-Grip handle to isolate the rivnut head from the 
rotational friction of the bolt head, then clean up the slightly deformed 
threads with a tap.

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#543742

On 9/30/2026 4:15 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m1bj9faovs.fsf@void.com...
> 
>> https://www.nf6x.net/1999/10/m109a3-2-5-ton-6x6-shop-van/
> Good run-around to have :-)
> -------------------------------
> 
> Impossible to park in civilian spaces, as at Autobahn rest stops. I 
> liked the internal and external size of the 1970's VW camper van, but 
> couldn't keep up with its road salt rust. That's why I've improved my 
> ability to form sheet metal into repair panels and mig weld them.
> 
> The rivnuts are more trouble than expected because their heads space the 
> patch outward on curves and shift the alignment of other holes. The 
> Hardell tool doesn't reliably clinch 1/4-20 stainless rivnuts tight 
> enough to not spin. Tightening a Gr8 bolt in them bottoms them out tight 
> enough. I turned a sleeve bushing with a Vise-Grip handle to isolate the 
> rivnut head from the rotational friction of the bolt head, then clean up 
> the slightly deformed threads with a tap.
> 


There are two styles of tools I am familiar with for setting rivet nuts. 
  One that operates like a pop rivet tool, but it incorporates a 
threaded mandrel.  Of those there ARE two sub types.  A regular right 
angle fist grip tool of which most of us are familiar and a compound 
crimp tool with leverage more like a bolt cutter.

The other is simpler, may be cheaper (except at an industrial bolt 
supplier), and can be shop made.  It is basically a GR8 bolt, a heavy 
washer, and a clearance fit hex fitting with a coarse knurl more like 
the bucking spikes on a chainsaw.  You use a wrench on the hex with the 
spikes/knurl against the rivet nut, and tighten the bolt with a suitable 
wrench, socket, impact, or whatever.  When the rivet nut is compressed 
in place you just back out the bolt.

I expect that one of these tools may work better than the others for 
your use.  Some type or retaining compound might help.  I don't know.  I 
would also suggest if you are still enamored of the idea of rivet nuts, 
check to see if there are flush head countersunk versions available.

If a recessed or counter sunk head rivet nut is available some sort of 
dimple die might just be the ticket to make everything work the way you 
want.

Depending on how you punch the hole and dimple the sheet metal you may 
also be able to create increased engagement surface for knurling on the 
rivet nut itself.



-- 
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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#543743

"Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:119jtb6$jpru$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/30/2026 4:15 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> The rivnuts ...

There are two styles of tools I am familiar with for setting rivet nuts.
  One that operates like a pop rivet tool, but it incorporates a
threaded mandrel.  Of those there ARE two sub types.  A regular right
angle fist grip tool of which most of us are familiar and a compound
crimp tool with leverage more like a bolt cutter.

The other is simpler, may be cheaper (except at an industrial bolt
supplier), and can be shop made.  It is basically a GR8 bolt, a heavy
washer, and a clearance fit hex fitting with a coarse knurl more like
the bucking spikes on a chainsaw.  You use a wrench on the hex with the
spikes/knurl against the rivet nut, and tighten the bolt with a suitable
wrench, socket, impact, or whatever.  When the rivet nut is compressed
in place you just back out the bolt.

I expect that one of these tools may work better than the others for
your use.  Some type or retaining compound might help.  I don't know.  I
would also suggest if you are still enamored of the idea of rivet nuts,
check to see if there are flush head countersunk versions available.

If a recessed or counter sunk head rivet nut is available some sort of
dimple die might just be the ticket to make everything work the way you
want.

Depending on how you punch the hole and dimple the sheet metal you may
also be able to create increased engagement surface for knurling on the
rivet nut itself.

-- 
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

---------------------------------

The Hardell tool is of the bolt cutter handle type which initially sets the 
rivnut without rotating it. I used my shop made bolt and wrench tool 
afterwards to pull the rivnut tighter, until I felt it bottom out. The 
initial set and the friction of the stationary sleeve bushing against the 
head were enough to keep the knurled stainless rivnut from turning from 
thread friction.

In this case the patch doesn't need to fit flush, a drainage gap may be 
better than sealing in high speed tire spray, which the original box channel 
design appears to have done on the V shaped and spotwelded bottom edge. I 
considered making a screw-together die set to form a shallow well around the 
rivnut head, but don't think it's appropriate or necessary on curved 
surfaces that it will distort, and 18 gauge galvy steel is difficult to 
simply shear or bend with a hammer. I've made such die sets for easier tasks 
like setting brass grommets in hanging tarps.

A more adjustable approach would be to fold the outer edges of the patch 
down to form a seal with some spring. I've found that with curved metal I 
need each forming operation to solve one problem without worsening another 
elsewhere.

Everything finally fits. I took it apart and sprayed LPS-3 inside the 
remaining box channel. The factory paint is still intact on exposed areas 
that I sprayed 20+ years ago.

Does anyone else take auto body repair to this level? I can buy repair 
panels for my 91 Ranger but not this 2000 Honda. I made the Ranger floor 
repair only because the available floor panel has the same drain hole where 
mine rusted around the rubber plug.

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#543744

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:119k3bl$lqav$1@dont-email.me...

>If a recessed or counter sunk head rivet nut is available some sort of
dimple die might just be the ticket to make everything work the way you
want.
-- 
Bob La Londe
--------------------------

I made a dimpling die set for my #5 Junior punch. The limitation is access 
to the back side which a small rust hole or internal structure may not 
permit. My rust repairs to the truck and car have included Mig butt and plug 
welding when the back side is accessible to grind and spray, stainless pop 
rivets and auto body sealant, rivnuts for blind assembly and U clip nuts at 
edges. The non-welded patches are galvanized, the hardware stainless. The 
threads gall and stick together if not lubricated, LPS-3 which dries to a 
wax seems adequate so far. It's too thick to be a good grease for moving 
parts but it keeps them from seizing.

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#543735

"Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:m1a4p1swlt.fsf@Admins-Air.Home...

For what it's worth...
went 2 days ago to Bovington camp tank museum for "running" day - of
mainly WW2 armoured vehicles.

-----------------------------------

In case you heard the argument that we were wrong to not adopt the Firefly 
modification, this explores the reasons. Mainly the Firefly was less 
accurate and less effective against infantry, the more common threat.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/us-firefly-17-pounder-vs-90mm-vs-76mm.285284/
"Where is the practical advantage to the capability to puch through at 
extended range if you can't get the shell to hit to begin with? By the time 
Firefly gets close enough to hit the target, [US Sherman] 76mm would be 
punching through as well anyway."

90mm refers to the larger gun on US tank destroyers. 

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#543736

On 9/27/2026 11:45 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> For what it's worth...
> went 2 days ago to Bovington camp tank museum for "running" day - of
> mainly WW2 armoured vehicles.
> 
> I can cite what I have studied about tanks. First time ever seeing
> tanks running.  I set myself the goal of watching and absorbing...
> 
> Someone from the museum explained the cost in fuel (petrol/gasoline,
> diesel) runs into 5 figures GBPpounds (close to US$) *each day* - the
> admission cost from thousands of people barely covers.
> 
> Petrol/gasoline fueled tanks (the most) popping and banging away.
> Name of day heavily distorted by the only running WW2 German Tiger
> tank in the World (?) appearing.  Heat-haze of gasoline being burned...
> 
> The amazing Soviet / Russian T34 (a T34/85) - one of very few
> diesel-engined tanks - blatantly displaying its crudity yet brilliance.
> 
> You folk are in the main experts.  I will only comment - I am glad I
> saw.  Seeing is understanding a lot...
> 
> Best wishes

I don't know how enthused you are, but there is a place here in the 
states where you can drive and even shoot tanks.


"DriveTanks.com
https://www.drivetanks.com
Drive and shoot real tanks! The World's premier living military history 
adventure. Experience the historic and rate anti-tank guns and machine 
guns."



-- 
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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