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Examples where authors messed up Timelines

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  Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2016-06-04 22:23 -0700
    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-06-05 06:47 -0700
      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-05 10:01 -0700
        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:19 -0500
    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-06-05 08:37 -0700
    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-05 10:57 -0700
      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-05 18:33 +0000
        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-05 11:43 -0700
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-05 20:40 +0000
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 17:22 -0400
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-06-09 01:29 +0000
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-09 07:54 -0700
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-09 12:35 -0400
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-09 12:45 -0700
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-10 21:46 -0600
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-11 09:35 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-11 14:06 -0400
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-11 23:32 +0000
                    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-11 23:49 -0400
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-12 04:34 +0000
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-13 22:32 -0700
                        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-14 14:09 -0400
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-06-09 09:17 -0700
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-09 18:35 +0000
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2016-06-09 21:31 -0700
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-10 05:16 +0000
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-10 02:37 -0500
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-08-04 18:41 -0400
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-09 11:56 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-06-09 18:55 -0700
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-09 21:04 +0100
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2016-06-10 03:24 -0500
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-10 15:00 +0000
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-10 14:05 -0700
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Richard Botting <rjbotting03@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 09:59 -0700
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-06-23 17:57 -0700
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-25 00:16 +0000
        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Brenda <brendawriter@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-11 22:01 -0400
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-06-11 21:13 -0600
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-06-12 02:04 -0400
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-12 07:18 +0000
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-12 06:57 -0400
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-06-12 06:24 +0000
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-06-12 10:44 +0300
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-06-12 05:48 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-12 13:28 -0700
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-12 14:53 -0600
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-12 20:46 -0500
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Jesper Lauridsen <rorschak@sorrystofanet.dk> - 2016-07-14 00:04 +0000
    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-06 03:57 -0700
      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-06-06 11:30 -0400
        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 00:49 +0000
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-06 19:52 -0600
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:25 -0500
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-06 20:59 -0600
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 20:25 -0700
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 05:02 +0000
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-07 05:09 +0000
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 05:51 +0000
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-07 06:21 +0000
                    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-06-06 23:31 -0700
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-07 09:43 +0100
                        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Stephen Allcroft <stephenallcroft@lycos.co.uk> - 2016-06-07 02:22 -0700
                        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-07 14:30 -0400
                          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 12:05 -0700
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Howard C <howard.r.carter@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 07:55 -0700
                        Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-08 02:23 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-07 23:02 +0000
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-10 01:39 +0000
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-06-07 05:04 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-07 09:58 -0700
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 20:54 +0000
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-06-07 14:50 -0700
                    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-07 21:58 +0000
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-06-07 15:19 -0700
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-06-08 13:53 +0000
                    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-07 16:03 -0700
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-06-07 16:34 -0700
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-07 04:59 -0700
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 05:33 -0700
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-08-04 21:01 -0400
            Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-08-05 02:53 +0000
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-08-04 23:19 -0400
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2016-08-05 18:32 +1200
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-08-05 08:37 -0400
                Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-08-06 04:53 -0700
                  Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-08-08 16:07 +0000
                    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-08-09 08:43 -0600
                      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-08-09 19:36 +0000
              Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 04:35 -0400
          Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Paul Colquhoun <newsposter@andor.dropbear.id.au> - 2016-08-05 14:04 +1000
      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:23 -0500
    Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-23 02:24 -0700
      Re: Examples where authors messed up Timelines Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-08-07 00:24 -0700

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#441269 — Examples where authors messed up Timelines

One of the potential problems when a novel (or a sequence of novels) has 
two (or more) parallel plot tracks is getting out of synchronization. I 
remember John Cramer mentioning that he put the plot of his first novel 
(_Twistor_) in to MS Project to ensure that there was enough time in 
each track to support the plot and that the tracks stayed synchronized. 
But I suspect that this (or the equivalent) has been skipped by other 
authors.

For example, Mike Moscoe (as Mike Shepherd), split off a Vicky Peterwald 
trilogy from his long running Kris Longknife series. The split occurs at 
the end of KL: Daring and the forthcoming KL: Bold has the end of the 
split. However, there are FOUR books between _Daring_ and _Bold_ 
(_Furious_, _Defender_, _Tenacious_, and _Unrelenting_) and IMHO, each 
of the first 3 cover more time than the respective titles in the Vicky 
Peterwald trilogy (_Target_, _Survivor_, _Rebel_). For that matter, 
_Unrelenting_ by itself might involve more time than the complete Vicky 
Peterwald trilogy.

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#441277

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:23:31 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> One of the potential problems when a novel (or a sequence of novels) has 
> two (or more) parallel plot tracks is getting out of synchronization. I 
> remember John Cramer mentioning that he put the plot of his first novel 
> (_Twistor_) in to MS Project to ensure that there was enough time in 
> each track to support the plot and that the tracks stayed synchronized. 
> But I suspect that this (or the equivalent) has been skipped by other 
> authors. [snip]

Jules Verne had this problem in the Captain Grant/Captain Nemo universe --
see question C-15 in http://jv.gilead.org.il/FAQ/ :

"...Jules Hetzel and Jules Verne knew about this paradox and they
accepted it. There are two footnotes in the original French edition of
"The mysterious island" where the publisher admitted the existence of
date discrepancies with both "The children of captain Grant" and "Twenty
thousand leagues under the seas."

You can't really blame Verne since early versions of MS Project were
pretty awful.

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#441287

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 9:47:40 AM UTC-4, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 1:23:31 AM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > One of the potential problems when a novel (or a sequence of novels) has 
> > two (or more) parallel plot tracks is getting out of synchronization. I 
> > remember John Cramer mentioning that he put the plot of his first novel 
> > (_Twistor_) in to MS Project to ensure that there was enough time in 
> > each track to support the plot and that the tracks stayed synchronized. 
> > But I suspect that this (or the equivalent) has been skipped by other 
> > authors. [snip]
> 
> Jules Verne had this problem in the Captain Grant/Captain Nemo universe --
> see question C-15 in http://jv.gilead.org.il/FAQ/ :
> 
> "...Jules Hetzel and Jules Verne knew about this paradox and they
> accepted it. There are two footnotes in the original French edition of
> "The mysterious island" where the publisher admitted the existence of
> date discrepancies with both "The children of captain Grant" and "Twenty
> thousand leagues under the seas."
> 
> You can't really blame Verne since early versions of MS Project were
> pretty awful.

I understand certain departments of the US government still use
the same release.  :)

Kevin R

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#441343

On 2016-06-05, Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 9:47:40 AM UTC-4, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> You can't really blame Verne since early versions of MS Project were
>> pretty awful.
>
> I understand certain departments of the US government still use
> the same release.  :)

ObWebcomic: The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage, at
 < http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/comics/ >

Dave, in which a variant of Moore's Law applies, awesomely
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/	-net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#441280

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 6:23:31 AM UTC+1, Robert Woodward wrote:
> One of the potential problems when a novel (or a sequence of novels) has 
> two (or more) parallel plot tracks is getting out of synchronization. I 
> remember John Cramer mentioning that he put the plot of his first novel 
> (_Twistor_) in to MS Project to ensure that there was enough time in 
> each track to support the plot and that the tracks stayed synchronized. 
> But I suspect that this (or the equivalent) has been skipped by other 
> authors.
> 
> For example, Mike Moscoe (as Mike Shepherd), split off a Vicky Peterwald 
> trilogy from his long running Kris Longknife series. The split occurs at 
> the end of KL: Daring and the forthcoming KL: Bold has the end of the 
> split. However, there are FOUR books between _Daring_ and _Bold_ 
> (_Furious_, _Defender_, _Tenacious_, and _Unrelenting_) and IMHO, each 
> of the first 3 cover more time than the respective titles in the Vicky 
> Peterwald trilogy (_Target_, _Survivor_, _Rebel_). For that matter, 
> _Unrelenting_ by itself might involve more time than the complete Vicky 
> Peterwald trilogy.

In the current Baen Free Radio Hour podcast at https://www.baen.com/podcast David Drake is asked about the handwaving underlying the FTL in his RCN series. He points out that it is partly just a translation of the wonder at the sea in O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin series, and says that he has seen far too many authors get too worried about their timelines or their technology, and lose the ability to write a good story. In particular, he reckons that Larry Niven paid far too much attention to the calculations showing that Ringworld couldn't work, and that the original Ringworld was the last really good novel he wrote. Since Drake appears (touch wood) to be sofar unaffected by the dreaded brain-eater, perhaps we should pay attention to his advice on priorities.

(I am also forced to notice that one of my favourite authors is a self-declared History and Latin Major, and so apparently identifies as such. So much for my theories about the decline of SF as the revenge of the English Majors!).

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#441288

This may not be too relevant, but I seem to remember that in the myths of Theseus, he HADN'T yet sailed on the Argo when he first met his father - so why is Medea already there in Athens, trying to poison him without his father's knowledge? Weird.

(What's also weird is that in the retellings of the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, Theseus' name doesn't seem to turn up anyway. Maybe I should check the ancient writers' accounts.)


Lenona.

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#441290

In article <58e0892f-681d-49c1-a3e1-45e0fe6ca41c@googlegroups.com>,
 <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
>This may not be too relevant, but I seem to remember that in the myths
>of Theseus, he HADN'T yet sailed on the Argo when he first met his
>father - so why is Medea already there in Athens, trying to poison him
>without his father's knowledge? Weird.
>
>(What's also weird is that in the retellings of the myth of Jason and
>the Argonauts, Theseus' name doesn't seem to turn up anyway. Maybe I
>should check the ancient writers' accounts.)
>
>
>Lenona.

The Hellenistic Greeks were aware of some of the contradictions in
their myths.  The _Argonautica_ by Apollonius Rhodius even attempts
to deal with some of them: Noting that some argonaut traditions had
Heracles in the crew, and some not, he decided to include Heracles
but have him leave halfway through the trip.

However, if Homer was a glorious pulp writer, Appolonius was a very
much a "literary" writer of his day.  I read _Argonautica_ some years
ago (in translation) and very little of it stuck with me.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#441292

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 2:33:26 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
 
> 
> The Hellenistic Greeks were aware of some of the contradictions in
> their myths.  

Besides the ones that Edith Hamilton pointed out (such as a few about Atalanta, plus Ariadne's desertion or death at Naxos), can you name any more? They don't have to involve the Argo. Thanks.


Lenona. 

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#441297

In article <1c95be94-18da-45dd-9211-be0814d6fa65@googlegroups.com>,
 <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 2:33:26 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> The Hellenistic Greeks were aware of some of the contradictions in
>> their myths.  
>
>Besides the ones that Edith Hamilton pointed out (such as a few about
>Atalanta, plus Ariadne's desertion or death at Naxos), can you name any
>more? They don't have to involve the Argo. Thanks.
>
>
>Lenona. 
>

I think I got the impression from the introdution to _Argonautica_ that
the Hellenistic Greeks in Alexandria liked to sit around and nitpick
the classics (that's not to say they weren't right).  The bit about
Heracles is one that stuck with me, but I think there were others.
Unfortunately, the book is packed away, and I don't recall the edition.

Possibly some material here:

  http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/books/b9789004281929_013

  http://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1970_num_39_1_1575

  http://tinyurl.com/jz99gry

though those appear to be a bit TLDR and more ancient literary criticism
than highlighting contradictions.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#441298

In article <drjh24Fh0iU1@mid.individual.net>, ted@loft.tnolan.com 
says...
> 
> In article <1c95be94-18da-45dd-9211-be0814d6fa65@googlegroups.com>,
>  <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 2:33:26 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > 
> >> 
> >> The Hellenistic Greeks were aware of some of the contradictions in
> >> their myths.  
> >
> >Besides the ones that Edith Hamilton pointed out (such as a few about
> >Atalanta, plus Ariadne's desertion or death at Naxos), can you name any
> >more? They don't have to involve the Argo. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >Lenona. 
> >
> 
> I think I got the impression from the introdution to _Argonautica_ that
> the Hellenistic Greeks in Alexandria liked to sit around and nitpick
> the classics (that's not to say they weren't right).  The bit about
> Heracles is one that stuck with me, but I think there were others.
> Unfortunately, the book is packed away, and I don't recall the edition.

Probably not all the Hellenistic Greeks but Fans are Fans.
 
> Possibly some material here:
> 
>   http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/books/b9789004281929_013
> 
>   http://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1970_num_39_1_1575
> 
>   http://tinyurl.com/jz99gry
> 
> though those appear to be a bit TLDR and more ancient literary criticism
> than highlighting contradictions.

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#441539

In article <1c95be94-18da-45dd-9211-be0814d6fa65@googlegroups.com>,
 <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 2:33:26 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> The Hellenistic Greeks were aware of some of the contradictions in
>> their myths.  
>
>Besides the ones that Edith Hamilton pointed out (such as a few about
>Atalanta, plus Ariadne's desertion or death at Naxos), can you name any
>more? They don't have to involve the Argo. Thanks.

There's a Greek story which has Theseus abducting a young Helen,
later "of Troy", which would make Helen among the oldest mortal
women in the Trojan War cycle.

The start of the Trojan War supposedly stems from the apple of discord
thrown at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.  The son of Peleus and
Thetis, Achilles, fights in that war...and *his* son participates
in its ending.  Even given that the war took ten years, either Peleus
and Thetis got a really really early start on their relationship,
or the timeline is just messed up.

-- 
   David Goldfarb          |"For some reason, most of my clearest memories 
goldfarbdj@gmail.com       |from my youth are of various traumas."
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu  |              -- James Nicoll

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#441591

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
 
> 
> There's a Greek story which has Theseus abducting a young Helen,
> later "of Troy", which would make Helen among the oldest mortal
> women in the Trojan War cycle.
> 
> The start of the Trojan War supposedly stems from the apple of discord
> thrown at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.  The son of Peleus and
> Thetis, Achilles, fights in that war...and *his* son participates
> in its ending.  Even given that the war took ten years, either Peleus
> and Thetis got a really really early start on their relationship,
> or the timeline is just messed up.


Funny that I never really thought about that second one...

But since Helen was supposed to be a child when Theseus kidnapped her (and got rescued by Castor and Pollux, who would likely have wiped out Theseus had he been there), could you tell me where it says that there was a long gap between Theseus' death and the war? 

Keep in mind that, IIRC, Hippolytus was born before that first kidnapping and died possibly as a teenager, and Theseus died not much later - but while relatively young as well. Also, Heracles, who lived at the same time, had a son in the war, I think.

Also, one thing that's fascinated me since I was little was how, in the awful story of Procne and Philomela, Edith Hamilton makes it clear (unlike Ovid) that it wasn't prudence that made Philomela use a tapestry rather than a letter to communicate her horrific situation to her sister - it was the fact that, even in a "century" when cities, ships (and maybe chariots?) existed, writing did not!! After all, any child can take for granted that in most fairy tales, there are no planes, trains or automobiles - but no WRITING? Aside from the days of cave-dwellers?  

So now that I'm older, while I suspect that that story is supposed to take place later than 2000 BCE (since Athens, where the sisters came from, didn't become a truly important city until about 1400 BCE) what's frustrating is that I've found it pretty difficult to find out just how much writing DID exist in mainland Greece before the alleged Dorian invasion of 1200 BCE, when writing disappeared for centuries. (I don't assume that women were really taught to read, as a rule, as Phaedra clearly was when she wrote her false letter to Theseus before she committed suicide.)

Does anyone know more about that? I'm dying to know.


Lenona.    

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#441606

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:54:37 -0700 (PDT),
<lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:0480d12b-e40d-4e10-99d5-06fb6a516698@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
>  
>> 
>> There's a Greek story which has Theseus abducting a young Helen,
>> later "of Troy", which would make Helen among the oldest mortal
>> women in the Trojan War cycle.
>> 
>> The start of the Trojan War supposedly stems from the apple of discord
>> thrown at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.  The son of Peleus and
>> Thetis, Achilles, fights in that war...and *his* son participates
>> in its ending.  Even given that the war took ten years, either Peleus
>> and Thetis got a really really early start on their relationship,
>> or the timeline is just messed up.
> 
> 
> Funny that I never really thought about that second one...
> 
> But since Helen was supposed to be a child when Theseus kidnapped her (and got rescued by Castor and Pollux, who would likely have wiped out Theseus had he been there), could you tell me where it says that there was a long gap between Theseus' death and the war? 
> 
> Keep in mind that, IIRC, Hippolytus was born before that first kidnapping and died possibly as a teenager, and Theseus died not much later - but while relatively young as well. Also, Heracles, who lived at the same time, had a son in the war, I think.
> 
> Also, one thing that's fascinated me since I was little was how, in the awful story of Procne and Philomela, Edith Hamilton makes it clear (unlike Ovid) that it wasn't prudence that made Philomela use a tapestry rather than a letter to communicate her horrific situation to her sister - it was the fact that, even in a "century" when cities, ships (and maybe chariots?) existed, writing did not!! After all, any child can take for granted that in most fairy tales, there are no planes, trains or automobiles - but no WRITING? Aside from the days of cave-dwellers?  
> 

> So now that I'm older, while I suspect that that story is
> supposed to take place later than 2000 BCE (since
> Athens, where the sisters came from, didn't become a
> truly important city until about 1400 BCE) what's
> frustrating is that I've found it pretty difficult to
> find out just how much writing DID exist in mainland
> Greece before the alleged Dorian invasion of 1200 BCE,
> when writing disappeared for centuries. (I don't assume
> that women were really taught to read, as a rule, as
> Phaedra clearly was when she wrote her false letter to
> Theseus before she committed suicide.) 

> Does anyone know more about that? I'm dying to know. 

The scripts found that early in mainland Greece came from
Crete: Linear A, which is still undeciphered, and Linear B,
which is quite well understood.  We have a pretty extensive
corpus of Linear B, but it appears to have been used
exclusively for administrative record keeping.  The
Wikipedia article is a decent introduction:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B>

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#441626

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 12:35:00 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
  > 
 > The scripts found that early in mainland Greece came from
> Crete: Linear A, which is still undeciphered, and Linear B,
> which is quite well understood.  We have a pretty extensive
> corpus of Linear B, but it appears to have been used
> exclusively for administrative record keeping.  The
> Wikipedia article is a decent introduction:
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B>


I knew about them, sort of.

So, it said:


Cretan Hieroglyphic - Crete c. 2100 – 1700 BCE 

Linear A  - Aegean islands (Kea, Kythera, Melos, Thera), and Greek mainland (Laconia) c. 2500 – 1450 BCE 

Linear B - Crete (Knossos), and mainland (Pylos, Mycenae, Thebes, Tiryns) c. 1450 – 1200 BCE 

And here, I found this:

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ships.htm

"Another early large Aegean Type I ship is represented in this Cycladic terracotta 'frying pan' from Syros dated around 2500-2000 BC. This multi-oared (16 pairs of oars) galley has a long vertical prow with a fish symbol mounted on top, perhaps acting as a wind vane to detect wind direction relative to the vessel. Also the cords or beams hanging bellow the fish symbol might conceivably act as some sort of wind catching element." 

Of course, regardless of whether one assumes that the story takes place before or after 2000 BCE, I'm guessing it's unlikely that even most rich men knew how to read (aside from Crete, maybe), so in a way, it would make sense to say that there was "no writing" at that time, since probably only the scribes knew how. Even AFTER 1450 BCE - but I'd guess that that was supposed to be the time for Theseus anyway, generations after Philomela.


Lenona.

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#441727

lenona321@yahoo.com wrote:

>Also, one thing that's fascinated me since I was little was how, in the awful story of Procne and Philomela, Edith Hamilton makes it clear (unlike Ovid) that it wasn't prudence that made Philomela use a tapestry rather than a letter to communicate her horrific situation to her sister - it was the fact that, even in a "century" when cities, ships (and maybe chariots?) existed, writing did not!! After all, any child can take for granted that in most fairy tales, there are no planes, trains or automobiles - but no WRITING? Aside from the days of cave-dwellers?  
...
>Does anyone know more about that? I'm dying to know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

The writing systems of the time were more complex than we're used to
now, and scribing and reading were specialized skills.  When the
collapse came, the very idea of reading was almost lost.

I first heard of this in a Pournelle blog post most of a decade ago.
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/science/firstdark.html


-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#441752

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 11:47:08 PM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
 

> The writing systems of the time were more complex than we're used to
> now, and scribing and reading were specialized skills.  When the
> collapse came, the very idea of reading was almost lost.
> 
> I first heard of this in a Pournelle blog post most of a decade ago.
> http://www.jerrypournelle.com/science/firstdark.html


Thanks for that link, especially.

Just in case you didn't see my June 9th post, I was trying to figure out when Athenians couldn't write BEFORE the Dark Age began circa 1200 BCE - and how long the writing period lasted:


Of course, regardless of whether one assumes that the story takes place before or after 2000 BCE, I'm guessing it's unlikely that even most rich men knew how to read (aside from Crete, maybe), so in a way, it would make sense to say that there was "no writing" at that time, since probably only the scribes knew how. Even AFTER 1450 BCE - but I'd guess that that was supposed to be the time for Theseus anyway, generations after Philomela. 

(end)

And, I would add that ever since I found out that ancient Minoan civilization ended circa 1400 BCE, I assumed that was when Theseus was supposed to have killed the Minotaur and made Athens great. (Not to mention that Minos himself was said to have been killed at Sicily after pursuing Daedalus there, soon after the Minotaur was killed.) So Procne and Philomela, coming from past generations, likely "lived" centuries earlier. 


Lenona.

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#441755

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:46:57 -0600, Greg Goss
<gossg@gossg.org> wrote
in<news:ds1ftpFp7l8U1@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> The writing systems of the time were more complex than
> we're used to now, and scribing and reading were
> specialized skills.  

Actually, Linear B is structurally fairly similar to some
writing systems in use today.  The main problem with it is
that it was designed for a language quite different from
Greek and as a result represents Greek rather poorly in
some respects.  What you wrote would apply much better to
Egyptian writing, for example.

It’s true that reading and writing were specialized skills,
but that had much more to do with the organization of
society than with the nature of the writing system.

[...]

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#441780

In article <rhl0s1fgoor0.9z2ud5tklps5$.dlg@40tude.net>,
Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:46:57 -0600, Greg Goss
><gossg@gossg.org> wrote
>in<news:ds1ftpFp7l8U1@mid.individual.net> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> The writing systems of the time were more complex than
>> we're used to now, and scribing and reading were
>> specialized skills.  
>
>Actually, Linear B is structurally fairly similar to some
>writing systems in use today.  The main problem with it is
>that it was designed for a language quite different from
>Greek and as a result represents Greek rather poorly in
>some respects.

Well, it was designed for an *earlier* form of Greek, having some
phonemes that fell out by Attic times ... and it was a syllabary,
not an alphabet.  I have a book around somewhere that describes
the earliest forms that were deciphered, such as _kwe-to-ro-we_,
"four."

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#441794

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:32:44 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o8Ms2K.E2q@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <rhl0s1fgoor0.9z2ud5tklps5$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:46:57 -0600, Greg Goss
>><gossg@gossg.org> wrote
>>in<news:ds1ftpFp7l8U1@mid.individual.net> in
>>rec.arts.sf.written:

>>[...]

>>> The writing systems of the time were more complex than
>>> we're used to now, and scribing and reading were
>>> specialized skills.  

>>Actually, Linear B is structurally fairly similar to some
>>writing systems in use today.  The main problem with it is
>>that it was designed for a language quite different from
>>Greek and as a result represents Greek rather poorly in
>>some respects.

> Well, it was designed for an *earlier* form of Greek,
> having some phonemes that fell out by Attic times ... 

No, it was either designed for writing the Minoan language
and then adapted to write a very early form of Greek, or
adapted from a script that was so designed.  And as I said,
it was in some respects a poor fit for that early form of
Greek.  Attic Greek came much later and simply has nothing
to do with the matter.

> and it was a syllabary, not an alphabet.  

Indeed.  And there are still syllabaries in use, as well as
the closely related abugidas (like Devanagari).

> I have a book around somewhere that describes the
> earliest forms that were deciphered, such as
> _kwe-to-ro-we_, "four."

I shouldn’t be surprised if it were Chadwick’s _The
Decipherment of Linear B_; it’s quite good.

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#441799

In article <y7aqy3ie33t4.f5pgknx8rage$.dlg@40tude.net>,
Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 23:32:44 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in<news:o8Ms2K.E2q@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> In article <rhl0s1fgoor0.9z2ud5tklps5$.dlg@40tude.net>,
>> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>>>On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:46:57 -0600, Greg Goss
>>><gossg@gossg.org> wrote
>>>in<news:ds1ftpFp7l8U1@mid.individual.net> in
>>>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>>>[...]
>
>>>> The writing systems of the time were more complex than
>>>> we're used to now, and scribing and reading were
>>>> specialized skills.  
>
>>>Actually, Linear B is structurally fairly similar to some
>>>writing systems in use today.  The main problem with it is
>>>that it was designed for a language quite different from
>>>Greek and as a result represents Greek rather poorly in
>>>some respects.
>
>> Well, it was designed for an *earlier* form of Greek,
>> having some phonemes that fell out by Attic times ... 
>
>No, it was either designed for writing the Minoan language
>and then adapted to write a very early form of Greek, or
>adapted from a script that was so designed.  And as I said,
>it was in some respects a poor fit for that early form of
>Greek.  Attic Greek came much later and simply has nothing
>to do with the matter.
>
>> and it was a syllabary, not an alphabet.  
>
>Indeed.  And there are still syllabaries in use, as well as
>the closely related abugidas (like Devanagari).
>
>> I have a book around somewhere that describes the
>> earliest forms that were deciphered, such as
>> _kwe-to-ro-we_, "four."
>
>I shouldn’t be surprised if it were Chadwick’s _The
>Decipherment of Linear B_; it’s quite good.
>
It may have been.  My library's in disorder at present, because
Hal has bought theoretically-movable shelves to hold all his
computer equipment, and they cover up a good portion of the
bookshelves.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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