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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #424852 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-10-17 14:44 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-10-22 09:59 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 127 — 30 participants |
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Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2015-10-17 14:44 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-18 00:37 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-17 22:23 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-17 22:47 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-18 17:24 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 00:51 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-18 21:12 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 02:02 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-18 20:02 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-18 23:34 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 04:32 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-19 11:28 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 18:44 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-20 03:05 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 04:31 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 16:50 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-18 23:16 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 04:34 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-19 12:25 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-19 01:34 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-19 01:01 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-10-19 01:25 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2015-10-19 06:00 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-19 00:15 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-10-19 02:39 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-19 05:32 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-19 13:21 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-19 13:22 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-19 08:04 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-19 17:13 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-10-19 18:31 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-20 02:17 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-10-19 20:47 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-20 04:03 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-20 00:33 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-10-20 23:23 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-20 17:55 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars mzenier@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) - 2015-10-20 17:00 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-20 20:38 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-21 04:06 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 04:09 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-21 13:19 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 18:17 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-21 23:31 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 23:22 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-21 20:01 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-22 03:38 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-22 17:11 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-22 17:38 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-22 22:28 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-26 23:16 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-23 14:48 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-23 08:07 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-23 15:33 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-23 10:10 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-23 19:07 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Larry Moore <larry@wightman.ca> - 2015-10-24 12:56 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:57 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Anthony Frost <Vulch@vulch.org> - 2015-10-25 10:40 +0100
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-25 17:23 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 16:41 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2015-10-25 22:32 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-26 10:39 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 21:47 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-27 10:42 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-23 00:57 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-26 23:12 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-28 20:33 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-19 23:33 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-20 15:00 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-10-20 01:09 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 05:17 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:43 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 13:27 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 10:45 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-24 16:01 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2015-10-24 23:16 -0300
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-26 10:41 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> - 2015-10-25 08:37 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-25 14:10 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-25 09:43 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 11:19 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> - 2015-10-25 11:42 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-26 10:43 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Larry Moore <larry@wightman.ca> - 2015-10-25 18:18 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-25 12:54 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 12:07 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-25 17:32 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 19:49 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-26 10:47 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-26 03:52 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-27 10:44 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-19 17:10 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-19 22:02 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2015-10-20 05:07 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-20 01:27 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2015-10-20 21:17 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-20 03:00 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-20 11:20 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-20 11:49 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-21 03:13 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-21 08:21 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-21 17:29 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-10-21 22:05 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-26 23:03 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-27 08:37 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-27 19:28 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Larry Moore <larry@wightman.ca> - 2015-10-28 20:28 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-29 06:07 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-10-22 09:03 +0800
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-21 21:17 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-25 17:42 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-26 23:05 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars mzenier@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) - 2015-10-21 15:55 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 23:19 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-24 02:16 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-24 14:33 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> - 2015-10-21 08:13 -0500
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 16:42 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-19 17:15 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-19 20:46 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-20 02:18 +0000
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-20 11:15 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-20 18:00 -0600
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-20 20:44 -0400
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars "artyw2@yahoo.com" <artyw2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-20 14:51 -0700
Re: Revisit issue of growing things on Mars Des <desmondkavanagh@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 09:59 -0700
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| From | William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 01:01 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424877 |
Robert Carnegie wrote: > On Sunday, 18 October 2015 01:45:12 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <mvufha01bt9@news3.newsguy.com>, >> a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Revisit issue of growing things on Mars. >>> A while back we discussed this topic. It seems >>> to have ended with someone saying the perchlorates >>> would make it impossible. >>> Here is a different view: >>> >>> http://modernfarmer.com/2015/10/can-you-grow-plants-on-mars/ >>> "----There's just one problem that Weir didn't address, because he didn't >>> know about when he wrote the novel: Martian soil has perchlorates, >>> a type of salt that's hazardous to the human body. The perchlorates >>> would either make it more difficult for plants to grow, or would make >>> the plants toxic. The solution is actually very simple, but it wasn't >>> included in the book or movie. "You can literally just rinse them out >>> of the soil," Weir says. "Wash the soil, soak it in water, and the water >>> would wash the perchlorates away. -----" >> >> And where do they go after that? Into the newly built lakes or >> seas? > > I think it's just a salt (a compound of positive and negative > charged ions). So, you can evaporate the water - to recover it - > leaving the salt behind. Just don't put it on your dinner. > > How hazardous are we talking anyway? Table salt is > not good for us in excess. But salt - sodium chloride > (or separate sources of sodium and chloride, I suppose) > is necessary to us. > Perchlorates are strong oxidizers. The most unstable will detonate if they're fairly dry and you mix them with something that can burn. Like dirt. If you extract a slurry from soil, and concentrate it...I don't think that's a good thing. Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush out the salts before planting. In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, because the river would flood its banks every year to do this automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as fertile as it originally was.
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 01:25 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <klv82b5qo1dkdca7ggqud0q89bjl2f95en@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #424934 |
On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:01:16 -0400, William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >out the salts before planting. > >In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >fertile as it originally was. It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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| From | ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 06:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <d8jf7sFeka0U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #424935 |
In article <klv82b5qo1dkdca7ggqud0q89bjl2f95en@reader80.eternal-september.org>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: >On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:01:16 -0400, William Vetter ><mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >>Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>out the salts before planting. >> >>In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>fertile as it originally was. > >It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. > It wasn't just people laughing at the name? -- ------ columbiaclosings.com What's not in Columbia anymore..
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 00:15 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <d8jg5hFeqgiU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #424936 |
ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote: >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: >>>[cropland salination] >> >>It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. > >It wasn't just people laughing at the name? I thought it was Letterman who pioneered something-cam names. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 02:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <6q392bdc6eu74j91bnbs2ol3aq70pesjh8@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #424936 |
On 19 Oct 2015 06:00:28 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote: >In article <klv82b5qo1dkdca7ggqud0q89bjl2f95en@reader80.eternal-september.org>, >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: >>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:01:16 -0400, William Vetter >><mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>out the salts before planting. >>> >>>In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>fertile as it originally was. >> >>It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. > >It wasn't just people laughing at the name? Naah, generally the people who own all the trade routes and have all the money and weapons don't get openly laughed at. When a new city was built on the ruins of the Hohokam capital, though, they did decide to call it something else: Phoenix. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 05:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <58e7b91c-3448-46ab-958e-298543d96088@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424938 |
On Monday, 19 October 2015 07:39:17 UTC+1, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: > On 19 Oct 2015 06:00:28 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan > <tednolan>) wrote: > > >In article <klv82b5qo1dkdca7ggqud0q89bjl2f95en@reader80.eternal-september.org>, > >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: > >>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:01:16 -0400, William Vetter > >><mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>>Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the > >>>course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are > >>>concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush > >>>out the salts before planting. > >>> > >>>In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, > >>>because the river would flood its banks every year to do this > >>>automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal > >>>with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as > >>>fertile as it originally was. > >> > >>It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. > > > >It wasn't just people laughing at the name? > > Naah, generally the people who own all the trade routes and have all > the money and weapons don't get openly laughed at. > > When a new city was built on the ruins of the Hohokam capital, though, > they did decide to call it something else: Phoenix. Oh! I thought we were in Oz - not AZ.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 13:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c234af88-86bf-4214-8fd5-3d65a815b4b1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424938 |
On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 2:39:17 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: > On 19 Oct 2015 06:00:28 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan > <tednolan>) wrote: > > >In article <klv82b5qo1dkdca7ggqud0q89bjl2f95en@reader80.eternal-september.org>, > >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: > >>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:01:16 -0400, William Vetter > >><mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>>Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the > >>>course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are > >>>concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush > >>>out the salts before planting. > >>> > >>>In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, > >>>because the river would flood its banks every year to do this > >>>automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal > >>>with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as > >>>fertile as it originally was. > >> > >>It may also have brought down the Hohokam Empire. > > > >It wasn't just people laughing at the name? > > Naah, generally the people who own all the trade routes and have all > the money and weapons don't get openly laughed at. > > When a new city was built on the ruins of the Hohokam capital, though, > they did decide to call it something else: Phoenix. > The Spring Training ballpark in Mesa is named after them. I knew the name, just not what it meant, until a few minutes ago. Kevin R
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 13:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nwGyHG.1095@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424934 |
In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >Robert Carnegie wrote: >> On Sunday, 18 October 2015 01:45:12 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <mvufha01bt9@news3.newsguy.com>, >>> a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Revisit issue of growing things on Mars. >>>> A while back we discussed this topic. It seems >>>> to have ended with someone saying the perchlorates >>>> would make it impossible. >>>> Here is a different view: >>>> >>>> http://modernfarmer.com/2015/10/can-you-grow-plants-on-mars/ >>>> "----There's just one problem that Weir didn't address, because he didn't >>>> know about when he wrote the novel: Martian soil has perchlorates, >>>> a type of salt that's hazardous to the human body. The perchlorates >>>> would either make it more difficult for plants to grow, or would make >>>> the plants toxic. The solution is actually very simple, but it wasn't >>>> included in the book or movie. "You can literally just rinse them out >>>> of the soil," Weir says. "Wash the soil, soak it in water, and the water >>>> would wash the perchlorates away. -----" >>> >>> And where do they go after that? Into the newly built lakes or >>> seas? >> >> I think it's just a salt (a compound of positive and negative >> charged ions). So, you can evaporate the water - to recover it - >> leaving the salt behind. Just don't put it on your dinner. >> >> How hazardous are we talking anyway? Table salt is >> not good for us in excess. But salt - sodium chloride >> (or separate sources of sodium and chloride, I suppose) >> is necessary to us. >> >Perchlorates are strong oxidizers. The most unstable will detonate if >they're fairly dry and you mix them with something that can burn. Like >dirt. If you extract a slurry from soil, and concentrate it...I don't >think that's a good thing. > >Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >out the salts before planting. > >In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >fertile as it originally was. I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize perchlorates were involved. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | petertrei@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 08:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <88b16bb4-3402-4eeb-9e3a-cb8472ba2fa9@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424944 |
On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, > William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >Robert Carnegie wrote: > >> On Sunday, 18 October 2015 01:45:12 UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >>> In article <mvufha01bt9@news3.newsguy.com>, > >>> a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Revisit issue of growing things on Mars. > >>>> A while back we discussed this topic. It seems > >>>> to have ended with someone saying the perchlorates > >>>> would make it impossible. > >>>> Here is a different view: > >>>> > >>>> http://modernfarmer.com/2015/10/can-you-grow-plants-on-mars/ > >>>> "----There's just one problem that Weir didn't address, because he didn't > >>>> know about when he wrote the novel: Martian soil has perchlorates, > >>>> a type of salt that's hazardous to the human body. The perchlorates > >>>> would either make it more difficult for plants to grow, or would make > >>>> the plants toxic. The solution is actually very simple, but it wasn't > >>>> included in the book or movie. "You can literally just rinse them out > >>>> of the soil," Weir says. "Wash the soil, soak it in water, and the water > >>>> would wash the perchlorates away. -----" > >>> > >>> And where do they go after that? Into the newly built lakes or > >>> seas? > >> > >> I think it's just a salt (a compound of positive and negative > >> charged ions). So, you can evaporate the water - to recover it - > >> leaving the salt behind. Just don't put it on your dinner. > >> > >> How hazardous are we talking anyway? Table salt is > >> not good for us in excess. But salt - sodium chloride > >> (or separate sources of sodium and chloride, I suppose) > >> is necessary to us. > >> > >Perchlorates are strong oxidizers. The most unstable will detonate if > >they're fairly dry and you mix them with something that can burn. Like > >dirt. If you extract a slurry from soil, and concentrate it...I don't > >think that's a good thing. Sugar and potassium perchlorate is an amateur rocket fuel. > >Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the > >course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are > >concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush > >out the salts before planting. > > > >In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, > >because the river would flood its banks every year to do this > >automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal > >with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as > >fertile as it originally was. > > I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because > of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize > perchlorates were involved. I'd never heard that perchlorates were a problem in the Middle East - just plain sodium chloride is much more common, and can kill a field quite effectively. However, perchlorate contamination can occur in desert regions naturally: http://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/2014-06-09-natural_perchlorate.html pt
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 17:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <333c1154-70e8-4c09-93fa-be009b232b2f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424944 |
On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, > William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the > >course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are > >concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush > >out the salts before planting. > >In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, > >because the river would flood its banks every year to do this > >automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal > >with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as > >fertile as it originally was. > I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because > of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize > perchlorates were involved. I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with water would solve the problem. John Savard
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| From | David Johnston <David@block.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 18:31 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424989 |
On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: > On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>> out the salts before planting. > >>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>> fertile as it originally was. > >> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >> perchlorates were involved. > > I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with water would solve the problem. > > John Savard > Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole heaping lot of water.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 02:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nwHyDv.vu4@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424991 |
In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>> out the salts before planting. >> >>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>> fertile as it originally was. >> >>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>> perchlorates were involved. >> >> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >water would solve the problem. >> >> John Savard >> > >Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >heaping lot of water. That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right where you're trying to grow things. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | David Johnston <David@block.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-19 20:47 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <n049rn$el7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424997 |
On 10/19/2015 8:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, > David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>> out the salts before planting. >>> >>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>> >>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>> perchlorates were involved. >>> >>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >> water would solve the problem. >>> >>> John Savard >>> >> >> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >> heaping lot of water. > > That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with > canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right > where you're trying to grow things. > Canals on Mars? What a silly idea.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 04:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nwI39I.15FA@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424999 |
In article <n049rn$el7$1@dont-email.me>, David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >On 10/19/2015 8:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, >> David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >>> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>>> out the salts before planting. >>>> >>>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>>> >>>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>>> perchlorates were involved. >>>> >>>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >>> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >>> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >>> water would solve the problem. >>>> >>>> John Savard >>>> >>> >>> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >>> heaping lot of water. >> >> That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with >> canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right >> where you're trying to grow things. >> > >Canals on Mars? What a silly idea. Depends on which way they're flowing. Are they irrigating the landscape, or draining it? -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 00:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <n04g2k$t42$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424997 |
Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, > David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>> out the salts before planting. >>> >>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>> >>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>> perchlorates were involved. >>> >>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >> water would solve the problem. >>> >>> John Savard >>> >> >> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >> heaping lot of water. > > That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with > canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right > where you're trying to grow things. In the Tigris/Euphrates/canal irrigation system, it forced the salinated water deeper into the water table, where it would wait to rise again to be next year's problem. And the irrigation water is not "slightly salty," it has trace minerals that are concentrated into the ground water to make it salty over a century.
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| From | "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 23:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <d8o0n7Fk8d3U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #425002 |
On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 00:33:15 -0400, William Vetter wrote: > > In the Tigris/Euphrates/canal irrigation system, it forced the salinated > water deeper into the water table, where it would wait to rise again to > be next year's problem. > > And the irrigation water is not "slightly salty," it has trace minerals > that are concentrated into the ground water to make it salty over a > century. I have read that there are ancient fields there that are now so salty that not even weeds will grow in them. Any ground-water you find is likely to have some minerals dissolved in it. In areas where the primary water source is rainfall, this isn't an issue. In areas where the primary water source started off as rainfall somewhere else, the water has picked up dissolved minerals along the way that are left behind when the water evaporates.
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 17:55 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <d8o2j5Fkq9sU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #425045 |
"John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> wrote: >Any ground-water you find is likely to have some minerals dissolved in >it. In areas where the primary water source is rainfall, this isn't an >issue. In areas where the primary water source started off as rainfall >somewhere else, the water has picked up dissolved minerals along the way >that are left behind when the water evaporates. I live in a city with extremely hard water. It's all surface run-off, but still hard. There are two ways to get lime into your water. You can run the water through limestone like many wells. Or you can grind the rock up very fine and mix it with your water. The beautiful pale blue of so many lakes in the Rockies comes from glacier-ground rock mixed into the water. Not relevant to "The Martian" or otherwise at all related to terraforming Mars, but I find it interesting. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | mzenier@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 17:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n08akd0s3k@enews2.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #425002 |
In article <n04g2k$t42$1@dont-email.me>, William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, >> David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >>> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>>> out the salts before planting. >>>> >>>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>>> >>>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>>> perchlorates were involved. >>>> >>>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >>> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >>> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >>> water would solve the problem. >>>> >>>> John Savard >>>> >>> >>> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >>> heaping lot of water. >> >> That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with >> canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right >> where you're trying to grow things. > >In the Tigris/Euphrates/canal irrigation system, it forced the >salinated water deeper into the water table, where it would wait to >rise again to be next year's problem. > >And the irrigation water is not "slightly salty," it has trace minerals >that are concentrated into the ground water to make it salty over a >century. A lot of salinization is not caused by salt that's brought it. It's that the addition of surface water creates a connection to saline ground water and transpiration brings up local salt, which concentrates on the surface. Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-20 20:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <562708a0$0$1703$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> |
| In reply to | #424997 |
On 10/19/2015 7:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, > David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>> out the salts before planting. >>> >>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>> >>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>> perchlorates were involved. >>> >>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >> water would solve the problem. >>> >>> John Savard >>> >> >> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >> heaping lot of water. > > That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with > canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right > where you're trying to grow things. > It drains away to where the perchlorate eating bacteria is I believe is the unstated part of the argument. -- Even Confucius complained about the younger generation's music.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-21 04:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nwJy24.12K1@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #425062 |
In article <562708a0$0$1703$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: >On 10/19/2015 7:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <n041tp$v9u$1@dont-email.me>, >> David Johnston <David@block.net> wrote: >>> On 10/19/2015 6:13 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>>> On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>>> In article <n01tb2$uei$1@dont-email.me>, >>>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Most people don't realize that irrigation salinates soil over the >>>>>> course of decades as trace salts in the irrigation water are >>>>>> concentrated, after which more irrigation water is required to flush >>>>>> out the salts before planting. >>>> >>>>>> In the ancient world, this was never a problem in the Nile valley, >>>>>> because the river would flood its banks every year to do this >>>>>> automatically, up until the Aswan Dam was built. But it was a big deal >>>>>> with the Tigris & Euphrates, which is why the Fertile Crescent isn't as >>>>>> fertile as it originally was. >>>> >>>>> I knew the Crescent had deteriorated over the centuries because >>>>> of salts in the soil, the result of irrigation. I didn't realize >>>>> perchlorates were involved. >>>> >>>> I don't believe he was trying to say they were - just that the same >>> accumulation of ordinary salt that caused problems on Earth could happen >>> with perchlorates on Mars if we thought that just washing them out with >>> water would solve the problem. >>>> >>>> John Savard >>>> >>> >>> Just washing out salt with water DOES work. It just takes a whole >>> heaping lot of water. >> >> That drains away somewhere. If you're irrigating the soil with >> canals full of slightly salty water, then it builds up right >> where you're trying to grow things. >> >It drains away to where the perchlorate eating bacteria is I believe is >the unstated part of the argument. Yup. Find your perchlorate-eating bacteria,* put them down in the bottomlands, flood the uplands with water, and wait. _____ *Mrs. Beeton never did actually say "First catch your rabbit." Her recipe began something like "Select your rabbit, and be sure it is young and tender." -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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