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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #423869 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-09-29 17:53 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-10-03 16:39 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 153 — 39 participants |
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Can anyone remember...? Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:53 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-09-30 01:31 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:09 +0200
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-02 16:24 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-10-02 14:43 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-02 22:17 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-02 18:56 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-02 20:36 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 16:06 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 02:24 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 23:08 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 05:29 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:35 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 23:19 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-02 23:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-10-03 00:23 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-03 10:09 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 08:59 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:39 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 21:49 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 22:53 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:16 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 09:59 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:30 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:41 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 15:10 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Raymond Daley" <raymond.daley@ntlworld.com> - 2015-10-07 14:50 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-07 13:58 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-07 07:21 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-08 04:36 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 07:40 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-07 18:20 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:22 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-08 02:55 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-10-09 02:03 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-09 19:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-10 08:17 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-07 23:15 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-08 04:41 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:29 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-08 08:24 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 07:31 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:19 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 18:26 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 16:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 13:24 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 17:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:37 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:47 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 17:57 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-04 09:25 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:32 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:52 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-10-04 21:58 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan) - 2015-10-05 03:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 00:10 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 05:31 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-06 19:48 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-06 21:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-07 09:27 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-07 11:50 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-07 13:49 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 13:52 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 19:10 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-05 08:14 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:41 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 18:37 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 15:34 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 02:38 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-04 03:38 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:26 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:19 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2015-10-04 15:26 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 16:20 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 10:46 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-05 04:30 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 08:26 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 12:54 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 13:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:37 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:43 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 18:12 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 22:06 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 15:08 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-10-05 17:18 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-07 07:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-06 20:11 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-07 04:26 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-04 15:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net> - 2015-10-13 16:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-03 09:09 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 13:54 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 11:24 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:35 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:27 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:28 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 14:47 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 07:22 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:20 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 13:51 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:54 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2015-10-05 11:38 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-05 11:56 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-05 14:35 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net> - 2015-10-05 23:08 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 01:03 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 09:39 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 16:59 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 16:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:42 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 21:51 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 15:32 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 16:48 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan) - 2015-10-03 22:29 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-03 06:31 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 14:57 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-10-03 16:19 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 18:50 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 19:14 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? - Slight thread drift BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net> - 2015-10-13 16:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 10:33 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-13 13:25 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 17:57 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-05 11:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-06 01:10 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:30 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-10-03 00:30 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 06:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-03 14:37 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:34 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-10-04 15:04 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:57 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-02 23:58 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 15:08 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-02 23:52 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 15:10 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:34 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Stumpy <perilmung@spamnet.con> - 2015-09-29 19:07 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-30 13:42 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-10-01 03:25 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 19:22 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 23:03 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-29 21:15 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-09-29 22:20 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 13:46 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-10-03 16:39 +0000
Page 6 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 Next page →
| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 14:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA528961D4592Btaustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #424066 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nvnFrw.69F@kithrup.com:
> In article <XnsA527E4A0E2E52taustingmail@69.16.179.43>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Truman and MacArthur were both exceptions to a lot of rules.
>>
>>And that wasn't a simulation.
>
> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good
> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality?
Well, that is an excellent question.
>
> Except for writing science fiction, of course.
>
Heh.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-04 07:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mur25m$akd$1@panix3.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #424066 |
In article <nvnFrw.69F@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: In article <XnsA527E4A0E2E52taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >> Truman and MacArthur were both exceptions to a lot of rules. >> >> And that wasn't a simulation. > > Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good > are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality? They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians' -- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue. -- wds
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-04 13:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvp6DH.1J01@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424123 |
In article <mur25m$akd$1@panix3.panix.com>, William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >In article <nvnFrw.69F@kithrup.com>, >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: > >In article <XnsA527E4A0E2E52taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Truman and MacArthur were both exceptions to a lot of rules. >>> >>> And that wasn't a simulation. >> >> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good >> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality? > >They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know >whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their >action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians' >-- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue. ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-04 13:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <muroue$g9d$1@panix3.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #424131 |
In article <nvp6DH.1J01@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: > William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: >> >>> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good >>> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality? >> >> They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know >> whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their >> action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians' >> -- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue. > > ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_. Never read it... details? -- wds
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-04 21:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvpu7K.Kpx@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424154 |
In article <muroue$g9d$1@panix3.panix.com>, William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >In article <nvp6DH.1J01@kithrup.com>, >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: > >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: >>> >>>> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good >>>> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality? >>> >>> They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know >>> whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their >>> action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians' >>> -- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue. >> >> ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_. > >Never read it... details? It's a fixup novel consisting of three novellae, taking its title from the third, longest, and most interesting. A student of "Middle English" (that's twentieth century) science fiction takes a job on a trading ship, while waiting for an academic job to surface. She solves three problems (one per novella) by her knowledge of science fiction and other Middle- English works. In the first, she solves a problem by remembering Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon." In the second, she solves another by remembering Conan Doyle's "Silver Blaze." In the third, she's confronted by the survivors of a millennia-ago war which devastated most of the many planets the species had inhabited. It was faction vs. faction, and each faction pure poison hated the other, for reasons I'll leave you to discover. One faction had thought the other extinct, but then the latter came out of suspended animation and they were ready to start the war all over again. The heroine solved the problem by getting them to read "Hawk Among the Sparrows" and then introducing the *concept* of improving your thinking processes by reading science fiction. She persuades the old-timers, whose culture doesn't include *any* form of fiction, to do this by comparing SF to wargame simulations. I don't suppose it's still in print, but that's what Amazon and Abebooks are for. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-05 11:38 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <1mbthkj.1x9hvm7eaypqjN%news{@bestley.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #424176 |
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: > In article <muroue$g9d$1@panix3.panix.com>, > William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: > >In article <nvp6DH.1J01@kithrup.com>, > >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: > > > >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: > >>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said: > >>> > >>>> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good > >>>> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality? > >>> > >>> They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know > >>> whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their > >>> action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians' > >>> -- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue. > >> > >> ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_. > > > >Never read it... details? > > It's a fixup novel consisting of three novellae, taking its title > from the third, longest, and most interesting. > > A student of "Middle English" (that's twentieth century) science > fiction takes a job on a trading ship, while waiting for an > academic job to surface. She solves three problems (one per > novella) by her knowledge of science fiction and other Middle- > English works. In the first, she solves a problem by remembering > Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon." In the second, she > solves another by remembering Conan Doyle's "Silver Blaze." > > In the third, she's confronted by the survivors of a millennia-ago > war which devastated most of the many planets the species had > inhabited. It was faction vs. faction, and each faction pure > poison hated the other, for reasons I'll leave you to discover. > One faction had thought the other extinct, but then the latter > came out of suspended animation and they were ready to start the > war all over again. The heroine solved the problem by getting > them to read "Hawk Among the Sparrows" and then introducing the > *concept* of improving your thinking processes by reading science > fiction. She persuades the old-timers, whose culture doesn't > include *any* form of fiction, to do this by comparing SF to > wargame simulations. > > I don't suppose it's still in print, but that's what Amazon and > Abebooks are for. A:sp in a Baen omnibus edition 3xT <http://www.baenebooks.com/p-422-3xt.aspx> and is early Turtledove so not full of repeatition etc. -- Mark
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-05 11:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvqx6o.xGy@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424195 |
In article <1mbthkj.1x9hvm7eaypqjN%news{@bestley.co.uk>,
Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <muroue$g9d$1@panix3.panix.com>,
>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>> >In article <nvp6DH.1J01@kithrup.com>,
>> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>> >
>> >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>> >>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Right. It was reality. This raises the question of what good
>> >>>> are simulations if they don't tell you anything about reality?
>> >>>
>> >>> They might have educational value... it'd be interesting to know
>> >>> whether playing such a simulation and seeing the results of their
>> >>> action or inaction changed anyone's -- especially the politicians'
>> >>> -- attitudes towards the "Use our nuclear weapons, yes/no?" issue.
>> >>
>> >> ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_.
>> >
>> >Never read it... details?
>>
>> It's a fixup novel consisting of three novellae, taking its title
>> from the third, longest, and most interesting.
>>
>> A student of "Middle English" (that's twentieth century) science
>> fiction takes a job on a trading ship, while waiting for an
>> academic job to surface. She solves three problems (one per
>> novella) by her knowledge of science fiction and other Middle-
>> English works. In the first, she solves a problem by remembering
>> Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon." In the second, she
>> solves another by remembering Conan Doyle's "Silver Blaze."
>>
>> In the third, she's confronted by the survivors of a millennia-ago
>> war which devastated most of the many planets the species had
>> inhabited. It was faction vs. faction, and each faction pure
>> poison hated the other, for reasons I'll leave you to discover.
>> One faction had thought the other extinct, but then the latter
>> came out of suspended animation and they were ready to start the
>> war all over again. The heroine solved the problem by getting
>> them to read "Hawk Among the Sparrows" and then introducing the
>> *concept* of improving your thinking processes by reading science
>> fiction. She persuades the old-timers, whose culture doesn't
>> include *any* form of fiction, to do this by comparing SF to
>> wargame simulations.
>>
>> I don't suppose it's still in print, but that's what Amazon and
>> Abebooks are for.
>
>A:sp in a Baen omnibus edition 3xT
><http://www.baenebooks.com/p-422-3xt.aspx> and is early Turtledove so
>not full of repeatition etc.
That may be beneficial to some who don't have the paperback. :)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-05 14:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvr4Ip.1BtM@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424196 |
Returning to the subthread about otherwise useful substances that tend to go bang, somebody mentioned the anti-malarial artemisinin. The guy who discovered it has now, at the age of 80, has just won the Nobel in Medicine for it. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/05/nobel_prize_in_medicine_to_three_scientists_who_defeated_deadly_parasites.html (Well, part of it. Also honored are two guys who between them found a preventive for river blindness.) -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-05 23:08 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <d7gamtFgvptU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #424196 |
"Dorothy J Heydt" wrote >> >> ObSF: Turtledove, _Earthgrip_. >>A:sp in a Baen omnibus edition 3xT >><http://www.baenebooks.com/p-422-3xt.aspx> and is early Turtledove so >>not full of repeatition etc. > That may be beneficial to some who don't have the paperback. :) The Omnibus was only ever an hc, hence the $9.99 ebook price insisted on by *v*l Amazon. Both pbooks are available used for minimal prices. There is also a Gateway UK-only ebook of Earthgrip at half the price. http://www.amazon.com/Earthgrip-Harry-Turtledove-ebook/dp/B00BM7XY4O/ -- Mike D
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| From | Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 01:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <472ab740-1b07-4da9-ad5d-2b0eaa4d865c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424039 |
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > > > >Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and > >military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that > >could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders > >_never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing > >so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other > >clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. > > Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been > used after 1945. > > It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur > told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't > understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > > I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth > grade." > > They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, > and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never > die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall > fade away." > > But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it > was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong > civilian who wouldn't let him. I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical situation in Korea.
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 09:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> |
| In reply to | #424059 |
On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: > On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>> >>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. >> >> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been >> used after 1945. >> >> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur >> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't >> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >> >> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth >> grade." >> >> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, >> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never >> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall >> fade away." >> >> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it >> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong >> civilian who wouldn't let him. > > I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever > having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This > is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to > nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? > > I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical > situation in Korea. > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb (conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and China. But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself leverage to keep playing politics. -- Even Confucius complained about the younger generation's music.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 16:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvnLvG.Hoz@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424074 |
In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: >On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: >> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >>>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >>>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >>>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >>>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. >>> >>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been >>> used after 1945. >>> >>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur >>> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't >>> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >>> >>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth >>> grade." >>> >>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, >>> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never >>> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall >>> fade away." >>> >>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it >>> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong >>> civilian who wouldn't let him. >> >> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever >> having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This >> is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to >> nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? >> >> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical >> situation in Korea. >> > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb >(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and >China. > >But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. > He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. >He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more >interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just >claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself >leverage to keep playing politics. On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a good and conscientious job of it. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 16:49 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.307a094544460f65989b89@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #424075 |
In article <nvnLvG.Hoz@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > > In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: > >On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: > >> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > >>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and > >>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that > >>>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders > >>>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing > >>>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other > >>>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. > >>> > >>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been > >>> used after 1945. > >>> > >>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > >>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur > >>> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't > >>> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > >>> > >>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > >>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth > >>> grade." > >>> > >>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, > >>> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never > >>> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall > >>> fade away." > >>> > >>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it > >>> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong > >>> civilian who wouldn't let him. > >> > >> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever > >> having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This > >> is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to > >> nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? > >> > >> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical > >> situation in Korea. > >> > > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb > >(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and > >China. > > > >But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. > > He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. > >He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more > >interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just > >claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself > >leverage to keep playing politics. > > On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of > reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a > good and conscientious job of it. Difficult not to given the character of the Japanese.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 14:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5289597ED7CCtaustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #424075 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nvnLvG.Hoz@kithrup.com:
> In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J
>>> Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>,
>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and
>>>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is
>>>>> simulated that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the
>>>>> military commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in
>>>>> response to the other side doing so. And the civilian
>>>>> commanders _always_ do so, even with other clear paths to
>>>>> resolve the crisis being available.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have
>>>> been used after 1945.
>>>>
>>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General
>>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it.
>>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was,
>>>> he didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him.
>>>>
>>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to
>>>> remember when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I
>>>> was in fourth grade."
>>>>
>>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the
>>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say
>>>> old soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old
>>>> soldier, and now I shall fade away."
>>>>
>>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used,
>>>> it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the
>>>> lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied
>>> ever having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean
>>> War. This is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that
>>> he "wanted to nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical
>>> situation in Korea.
>>>
>> From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to
>> bomb
>>(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between
>>Korea and China.
>>
>>But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as
>>before WWII.
>> He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively
>> exile him.
>>He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more
>>interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He
>>just claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to
>>give himself leverage to keep playing politics.
>
> On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of
> reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a
> good and conscientious job of it.
>
That _was_ a political job, not a military one.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 21:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvnzE8.15A8@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424095 |
In article <XnsA5289597ED7CCtaustingmail@69.16.179.42>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >news:nvnLvG.Hoz@kithrup.com: > >> In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, >> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: >>>On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: >>>> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J >>>> Heydt wrote: >>>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>>>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is >>>>>> simulated that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the >>>>>> military commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in >>>>>> response to the other side doing so. And the civilian >>>>>> commanders _always_ do so, even with other clear paths to >>>>>> resolve the crisis being available. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have >>>>> been used after 1945. >>>>> >>>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. >>>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, >>>>> he didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >>>>> >>>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to >>>>> remember when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I >>>>> was in fourth grade." >>>>> >>>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the >>>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say >>>>> old soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old >>>>> soldier, and now I shall fade away." >>>>> >>>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, >>>>> it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the >>>>> lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied >>>> ever having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean >>>> War. This is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that >>>> he "wanted to nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? >>>> >>>> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical >>>> situation in Korea. >>>> >>> From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to >>> bomb >>>(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between >>>Korea and China. >>> >>>But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as >>>before WWII. >>> He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively >>> exile him. >>>He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more >>>interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He >>>just claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to >>>give himself leverage to keep playing politics. >> >> On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of >> reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a >> good and conscientious job of it. >> >That _was_ a political job, not a military one. > Yes. And he was good at it. Maybe he should never have gone into the military in the first place? Material for somebody who writes alt-hist? -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 15:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <56105778$0$1632$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> |
| In reply to | #424075 |
On 10/3/2015 9:59 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: >> On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: >>> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >>>>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >>>>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >>>>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >>>>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. >>>> >>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been >>>> used after 1945. >>>> >>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur >>>> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't >>>> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >>>> >>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >>>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth >>>> grade." >>>> >>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, >>>> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never >>>> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall >>>> fade away." >>>> >>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it >>>> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong >>>> civilian who wouldn't let him. >>> >>> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever >>> having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This >>> is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to >>> nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? >>> >>> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical >>> situation in Korea. >>> >> From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb >> (conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and >> China. >> >> But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. >> He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. >> He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more >> interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just >> claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself >> leverage to keep playing politics. > > On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of > reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a > good and conscientious job of it. > In part because the job was to basically be The King of Japan. I suspect he always had a private fantasy of being King or Emperor. Since the real Emperor of Japan stayed out of his way he could settle for being Shogun. I'm not saying the was completely incompetent. He couldn't have risen as fast as he did if he was. But he was not the military genius he always claimed to be and definitely had trouble with the "military answers to the civilian government" part of his job. If I had had to work with him, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have trusted him. -- Even Confucius complained about the younger generation's music.
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| From | patmpowers@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-05 08:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <88ab20df-08ca-48cf-a41a-a010890d9f4a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424075 |
On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 1:00:05 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, > Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: > >On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: > >> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > >>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and > >>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that > >>>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders > >>>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing > >>>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other > >>>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. > >>> > >>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been > >>> used after 1945. > >>> > >>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > >>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur > >>> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't > >>> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > >>> > >>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > >>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth > >>> grade." > >>> > >>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, > >>> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never > >>> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall > >>> fade away." > >>> > >>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it > >>> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong > >>> civilian who wouldn't let him. > >> > >> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever > >> having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This > >> is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to > >> nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? > >> > >> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical > >> situation in Korea. > >> > > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb > >(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and > >China. > > > >But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. > > He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. > >He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more > >interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just > >claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself > >leverage to keep playing politics. > > On the other hand, credit where it's due, he was in charge of > reconstructing postwar Japan, and (from what I've read) did a > good and conscientious job of it. > I'd say he did a great job. To this day peace-loving Japanese are grateful to "GHQ." As a military commander he had some big successes and big failures.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 16:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.307a0909906cfb62989b88@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #424074 |
In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, dtravel@sonic.net says... > > On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: > > On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > >>> > >>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and > >>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that > >>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders > >>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing > >>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other > >>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. > >> > >> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been > >> used after 1945. > >> > >> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > >> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur > >> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't > >> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > >> > >> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > >> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth > >> grade." > >> > >> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, > >> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never > >> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall > >> fade away." > >> > >> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it > >> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong > >> civilian who wouldn't let him. > > > > I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever > > having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This > > is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to > > nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? > > > > I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical > > situation in Korea. > > > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb > (conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and > China. > > But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. > He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. > He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more > interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just > claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself > leverage to keep playing politics. He was, until he pissed off Truman, something of a Teflon general. He got caught just as flat-footed as Kimmell and Short, except he did it despite being informed of the attack on Pearl Harbor and ordered to implement the current war plan for war with Japan. So Kimmel and Short both were relieved of command and reduced in rank, while MacArthur got the Medal of Honor and a promotion.
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| From | ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 22:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <d7b36nF6vtfU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #424074 |
In article <561004a6$0$1682$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote: >On 10/3/2015 1:03 AM, Butch Malahide wrote: >> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 9:30:05 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >>>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >>>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >>>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >>>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. >>> >>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been >>> used after 1945. >>> >>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur >>> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't >>> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >>> >>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth >>> grade." >>> >>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, >>> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never >>> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall >>> fade away." >>> >>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it >>> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong >>> civilian who wouldn't let him. >> >> I'm not sure that's exactly the way it was. MacArthur denied ever >> having advocated the use of atomic weapons in the Korean War. This >> is the first time I've even heard it *alleged* that he "wanted to >> nuke Beijing"--do you have a cite for that? >> >> I'm not sure how nuking Beijing would have helped the tactical >> situation in Korea. >> > From what I recall off the top of my head, MacArthur wanted to bomb >(conventionally) the bridges across the river border between Korea and >China. > >But MacArthur was a pain in the ass General as far back as before WWII. > He was assigned command in the Philippines to effectively exile him. >He wasn't that great a military commander and tended to be more >interested in playing politics with the civilian government. He just >claimed credit for many of his subordinates' successes to give himself >leverage to keep playing politics. > I've always heard that Inchon was a master-stroke that salvaged the Korean situation. And he was a good viceroy.
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| From | patmpowers@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 06:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4a00312d-3b32-461a-b4cf-88db24cfb311@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424039 |
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 10:30:05 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > "old soldiers never > die, they just fade away" When I was young I used to say that all the time. I had no idea where it came from or what it meant. The other thing I used to say was "Take me to the Casbah." That's from a Heddy Lamarr movie. I tried to watch it once, but her acting is terrible.
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