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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #423869 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-09-29 17:53 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-10-03 16:39 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 153 — 39 participants |
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Can anyone remember...? Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:53 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-09-30 01:31 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:09 +0200
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-02 16:24 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-10-02 14:43 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-02 22:17 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-02 18:56 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-02 20:36 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 16:06 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 02:24 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 23:08 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 05:29 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:35 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 23:19 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-02 23:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-10-03 00:23 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-03 10:09 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 08:59 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:39 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 21:49 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 22:53 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:16 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 09:59 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:30 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:41 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 15:10 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Raymond Daley" <raymond.daley@ntlworld.com> - 2015-10-07 14:50 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-07 13:58 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-07 07:21 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-08 04:36 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 07:40 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-07 18:20 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:22 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-08 02:55 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-10-09 02:03 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-09 19:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-10 08:17 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-07 23:15 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-08 04:41 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:29 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-08 08:24 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-10-08 07:31 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-08 00:19 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 18:26 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 16:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 13:24 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 17:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:37 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:47 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 17:57 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-04 09:25 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:32 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 10:52 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-10-04 21:58 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan) - 2015-10-05 03:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 00:10 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 05:31 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-06 19:48 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-06 21:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-07 09:27 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-07 11:50 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-07 13:49 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 13:52 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 19:10 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-05 08:14 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:41 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-10-19 18:37 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 15:34 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 02:38 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-04 03:38 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:26 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:19 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2015-10-04 15:26 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 16:20 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 10:46 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-10-05 04:30 -0500
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 08:26 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-10-04 12:54 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 13:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:37 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:43 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 18:12 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 22:06 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-04 15:08 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-10-05 17:18 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-07 07:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-06 20:11 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-07 04:26 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-04 15:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net> - 2015-10-13 16:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-10-03 09:09 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 13:54 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 11:24 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:35 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:27 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:28 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 14:47 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 07:22 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 13:20 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 13:51 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:54 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2015-10-05 11:38 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-05 11:56 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-05 14:35 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net> - 2015-10-05 23:08 +0100
Re: Can anyone remember...? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 01:03 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 09:39 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 16:59 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 16:49 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 14:42 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 21:51 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-10-03 15:32 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:38 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 16:48 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan) - 2015-10-03 22:29 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-03 06:31 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 14:57 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-10-03 16:19 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 18:50 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 19:14 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? - Slight thread drift BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> - 2015-10-04 13:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net> - 2015-10-13 16:15 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 10:33 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-10-13 13:25 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 17:57 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:45 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-05 11:54 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-06 01:10 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:30 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-10-03 00:30 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 06:53 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-03 14:37 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-04 06:34 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-10-04 15:04 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-04 21:57 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-02 23:58 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 15:08 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-10-02 23:52 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-10-03 15:10 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? patmpowers@gmail.com - 2015-10-05 08:34 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Stumpy <perilmung@spamnet.con> - 2015-09-29 19:07 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-30 13:42 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-10-01 03:25 +0000
Re: Can anyone remember...? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 19:22 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 23:03 -0400
Re: Can anyone remember...? David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-29 21:15 -0600
Re: Can anyone remember...? Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-09-29 22:20 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 13:46 -0700
Re: Can anyone remember...? "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-10-03 16:39 +0000
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| From | Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-29 17:53 -0700 |
| Subject | Can anyone remember...? |
| Message-ID | <296b5f03-7f89-4198-8c51-b6c99c3fefcc@googlegroups.com> |
Sometime around 1955 or a little later there appeared a SF book with the following plot:
The scene is sometime in the future. Nuclear war has destroyed civilization, but
unbeknownst to most of humanity, the cities are becoming habitable again. The
main protagonist(s) of the novel are a boy and his cougar (or some similar animal).
They are able to communicate telepathically. The pair are forced to enter a city,
which is considered forbidden territory. They encounter rat-like, intelligent creatures
who hunt them. They seek safety in the upper floors of skyscrapers, but the rats
follow them.
Yeah, I know, not very good. I read it in about the seventh or eighth grade. Does anybody
know the title or author?
Another one, MUCH better, was called something like Level 7, or maybe Level 9. This is a hardened refuge where (some) humans go when there is a nuclear war. There are seven (or nine) underground layers to the facility, with Level 7 being the lowest and most secure; the levels are sealed off from each other, although of course they can communicate. I remember one feature of the complex was a tape loop playing a vast selection of the world's music (it took several months for the tape to loop). By the end of the novel everyone has memorized the order of every composition on the tape, and knows exactly what follows what, and it nearly drives them crazy.
Radiation slowly seeps into the layers, until everyone dies above level seven, which waits with bated breath to see if they will follow. No! The spread of the radiation stops, and they are saved!!
Until, one night, the reactor alarm bells start ringing...Man's most peaceful use of atomic energy has turned on him...
I'm reasonably sure this was titled Level Seven, but I can't find it in the Library of
Congress or anywhere else. Does anyone else remember it? Title? Author?
--Ron Bruck
bruck@math.usc.edu (preferred)
rbruck@gmail.com
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-30 01:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvGuwH.1HqK@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #423869 |
In article <296b5f03-7f89-4198-8c51-b6c99c3fefcc@googlegroups.com>, Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> wrote: >Sometime around 1955 or a little later there appeared a SF book with the >following plot: > > The scene is sometime in the future. Nuclear war has destroyed >civilization, but > unbeknownst to most of humanity, the cities are becoming habitable >again. The > main protagonist(s) of the novel are a boy and his cougar (or some >similar animal). > They are able to communicate telepathically. The pair are forced to >enter a city, > which is considered forbidden territory. They encounter rat-like, >intelligent creatures > who hunt them. They seek safety in the upper floors of >skyscrapers, but the rats > follow them. > Sounds like something by Andre Norton, whom I haven't read in decades. > >Another one, MUCH better, was called something like Level 7.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_7_(novel) I read that back in the day; didn't care for it at all. Post-nuclear-holocaust dystopia, everybody dies. But that's the title. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 18:09 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <b82ad1f2ca742922cb2b4b070c158fb4@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> |
| In reply to | #423870 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 In article <nvGuwH.1HqK@kithrup.com> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote: > > In article <296b5f03-7f89-4198-8c51-b6c99c3fefcc@googlegroups.com>, > Ronald Bruck <rbruck@gmail.com> wrote: > >Sometime around 1955 or a little later there appeared a SF book with the > >following plot: > > > > The scene is sometime in the future. Nuclear war has destroyed > >civilization, but > > unbeknownst to most of humanity, the cities are becoming habitable > >again. The > > main protagonist(s) of the novel are a boy and his cougar (or some > >similar animal). > > They are able to communicate telepathically. The pair are forced to > >enter a city, > > which is considered forbidden territory. They encounter rat-like, > >intelligent creatures > > who hunt them. They seek safety in the upper floors of > >skyscrapers, but the rats > > follow them. > > > Sounds like something by Andre Norton, whom I haven't read in > decades. > > > >Another one, MUCH better, was called something like Level 7.... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_7_(novel) > > I read that back in the day; didn't care for it at all. > Post-nuclear-holocaust dystopia, everybody dies. But that's the > title. I read "Level 7" in either late grammar school or some time in high school. I forget if I read it before or after the Cuban Missile Crisis, when we damned near got to go through that entire scenario in real life, or in real death. I found "Level 7" sobering. It really did impress on me that the nuclear weapons of the superpowers could destroy all human life on the planet. I was a kid, but this seemed like a pretty adult book to me then. I have not re-read it in the half century plus since that first reading. I took it seriously and considered it a good book. Adamastor Glace Mortimer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: N/A iEYEAREKAAYFAlYOV3kACgkQ1vVH2r/FDv1vLwCeMOsxlKmwWjr5PtG3Rq7n7+lu vx0AnibJPWcj3ZnOCRm1jk+qxLW8qoQZ =e9s6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 16:24 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mump6q$5d5$1@panix3.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #423997 |
In article <b82ad1f2ca742922cb2b4b070c158fb4@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>, Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> said: > I read "Level 7" in either late grammar school or some time in > high school. I forget if I read it before or after the Cuban > Missile Crisis, when we damned near got to go through that entire > scenario in real life, or in real death. File this under Stuff I Should Know But Don't: Has there ever been a competent and not-hopelessly-biased study, based on what the U.S. and U.S.S.R. had by way of warheads and delivery systems at the time, of what the worst-case scenario was for damage to (a) the human race and (b) the biosphere in general, had the Crisis gone maximally critical? Was there a real possibility of extinction? (I'm kind of glad that I wasn't quite five years old yet in October 1962 and had no idea of what was going on.) -- wds
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| From | Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 14:43 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <m2oaghq9w0.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org> |
| In reply to | #424015 |
begin fnord wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) writes: > Has there ever been a competent and not-hopelessly-biased study, > based on what the U.S. and U.S.S.R. had by way of warheads and > delivery systems at the time, of what the worst-case scenario was > for damage to (a) the human race and (b) the biosphere in general, > had the Crisis gone maximally critical? If there has been, I would be very disappointed if its title was not _World Targets in Megadeaths_. -- Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed." - Associated Press
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 22:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvM5wt.1sIK@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424015 |
In article <mump6q$5d5$1@panix3.panix.com>, William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >In article <b82ad1f2ca742922cb2b4b070c158fb4@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>, >Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> said: > >> I read "Level 7" in either late grammar school or some time in >> high school. I forget if I read it before or after the Cuban >> Missile Crisis, when we damned near got to go through that entire >> scenario in real life, or in real death. > >File this under Stuff I Should Know But Don't: > >Has there ever been a competent and not-hopelessly-biased study, >based on what the U.S. and U.S.S.R. had by way of warheads and >delivery systems at the time, of what the worst-case scenario was >for damage to (a) the human race and (b) the biosphere in general, >had the Crisis gone maximally critical? Was there a real >possibility of extinction? I've read studies since that concluded that they couldn't have wiped out all life, not even all human life, but civilization would've taken something of a hit. Looking back on it all, I'm of the opinion that the time World War III was not only averted, but taken off the list of possibilities by both major and several powers, was not the Cuban missile crisis but the Hungarian revolutio of, was it 1957? It's the kind of situation that had started both WWI and WWII, but the US *didn't* intervene, because the idea of a full-scale nuclear war had both sides sufficiently scared. > >(I'm kind of glad that I wasn't quite five years old yet in October >1962 and had no idea of what was going on.) I was just about to turn twenty-one. We were all pretty scared, and Bertrand Russell was saying "By the end of the week we shall all be dead." However, by the end of the week Kennedy and Khrushkhov went eyeball to eyeball and Khrushkhov blinked first. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 18:56 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mun1vd$blf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424026 |
On 10/2/15 6:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mump6q$5d5$1@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <b82ad1f2ca742922cb2b4b070c158fb4@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>,
>> Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> said:
>>
>>> I read "Level 7" in either late grammar school or some time in
>>> high school. I forget if I read it before or after the Cuban
>>> Missile Crisis, when we damned near got to go through that entire
>>> scenario in real life, or in real death.
>>
>> File this under Stuff I Should Know But Don't:
>>
>> Has there ever been a competent and not-hopelessly-biased study,
>> based on what the U.S. and U.S.S.R. had by way of warheads and
>> delivery systems at the time, of what the worst-case scenario was
>> for damage to (a) the human race and (b) the biosphere in general,
>> had the Crisis gone maximally critical? Was there a real
>> possibility of extinction?
>
> I've read studies since that concluded that they couldn't have
> wiped out all life, not even all human life, but civilization
> would've taken something of a hit.
>
> Looking back on it all, I'm of the opinion that the time World
> War III was not only averted, but taken off the list of
> possibilities by both major and several powers, was not the Cuban
> missile crisis but the Hungarian revolutio of, was it 1957? It's
> the kind of situation that had started both WWI and WWII, but the
> US *didn't* intervene, because the idea of a full-scale nuclear
> war had both sides sufficiently scared.
>>
>> (I'm kind of glad that I wasn't quite five years old yet in October
>> 1962 and had no idea of what was going on.)
>
> I was just about to turn twenty-one.
I was three months old.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 20:36 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <38idnbo0iYydrJLLnZ2dnUU7-YX46u6z@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #424028 |
On 2015-10-02, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote: > On 10/2/15 6:17 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>> (I'm kind of glad that I wasn't quite five years old yet in October >>> 1962 and had no idea of what was going on.) >> >> I was just about to turn twenty-one. > > I was three months old. And I was just under minus two. Dave -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 16:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #424026 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nvM5wt.1sIK@kithrup.com:
> In article <mump6q$5d5$1@panix3.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article
>><b82ad1f2ca742922cb2b4b070c158fb4@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>,
>>Adamastor Glace Mortimer <nospam@no.invalid> said:
>>
>>> I read "Level 7" in either late grammar school or some time in
>>> high school. I forget if I read it before or after the Cuban
>>> Missile Crisis, when we damned near got to go through that
>>> entire scenario in real life, or in real death.
>>
>>File this under Stuff I Should Know But Don't:
>>
>>Has there ever been a competent and not-hopelessly-biased study,
>>based on what the U.S. and U.S.S.R. had by way of warheads and
>>delivery systems at the time, of what the worst-case scenario
>>was for damage to (a) the human race and (b) the biosphere in
>>general, had the Crisis gone maximally critical? Was there a
>>real possibility of extinction?
>
> I've read studies since that concluded that they couldn't have
> wiped out all life, not even all human life, but civilization
> would've taken something of a hit.
>
> Looking back on it all, I'm of the opinion that the time World
> War III was not only averted, but taken off the list of
> possibilities by both major and several powers, was not the
> Cuban missile crisis but the Hungarian revolutio of, was it
> 1957? It's the kind of situation that had started both WWI and
> WWII, but the US *didn't* intervene, because the idea of a
> full-scale nuclear war had both sides sufficiently scared.
>>
>>(I'm kind of glad that I wasn't quite five years old yet in
>>October 1962 and had no idea of what was going on.)
>
> I was just about to turn twenty-one. We were all pretty scared,
> and Bertrand Russell was saying "By the end of the week we shall
> all be dead." However, by the end of the week Kennedy and
> Khrushkhov went eyeball to eyeball and Khrushkhov blinked first.
>
Both sides had reason to believe the other side was batshit crazy
enough to push the button. Neither side was, as it turns out.
Kennedy was, perhaps, closer to that crazy, but from accounts
published since, neither side really willing.
Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and
military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that
could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders
_never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing
so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other
clear paths to resolve the crisis being available.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 02:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvMHD7.5sJ@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424032 |
In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > >Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >_never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been used after 1945. It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him. I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth grade." They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall fade away." But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 23:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424039 |
Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. > > Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been > used after 1945. > > It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur > told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't > understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > > I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth > grade." > > They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, > and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never > die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall > fade away." > > But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it > was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong > civilian who wouldn't let him. No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 05:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424043 |
In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>, William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated that >>> could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military commanders >>> _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the other side doing >>> so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do so, even with other >>> clear paths to resolve the crisis being available. >> >> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have been >> used after 1945. >> >> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. MacArthur >> told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he didn't >> understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >> >> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in fourth >> grade." >> >> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the circumstances, >> and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old soldiers never >> die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, and now I shall >> fade away." >> >> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, it >> was the military man who wanted to use them, and the lifelong >> civilian who wouldn't let him. > >No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of the French >at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. There may have been talk. Nobody used them. In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it. They had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of following a change in the wind and poisoning your own troops, not the enemy's. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 22:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA527E5DE3DE18taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #424047 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com:
> In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>,
> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>,
>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and
>>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated
>>>> that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military
>>>> commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the
>>>> other side doing so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do
>>>> so, even with other clear paths to resolve the crisis being
>>>> available.
>>>
>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have
>>> been used after 1945.
>>>
>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General
>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it.
>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he
>>> didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him.
>>>
>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember
>>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in
>>> fourth grade."
>>>
>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the
>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old
>>> soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier,
>>> and now I shall fade away."
>>>
>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used,
>>> it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the
>>> lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him.
>>
>>No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of the
>>French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
>
> There may have been talk. Nobody used them.
>
> In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared
> against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it. They
> had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of following a
> change in the wind and poisoning your own troops, not the
> enemy's.
>
And was dangerous to handle when not in actual use, and really
pissed off the enemy, and a variety of other reasons aginst it.
The Nazis made, literally, tons of chlorine triflouride at one
point, to use as both a weapon and a rocket fuel. But the stuff is
so dangerous, and a better oxidizer than pure oxygen[1], that they
decided that wasn't a good idea.
[1]If you spill it in your lab, whatever you spill it on, including
the concrete floor, will catch on fire. If you grab your handy
bucket of sand (no chem lab is complete without several) and dump
that on it, the sand will catch on fire. If you douse it with
water, the water will catch on fire. If you scoop it into a vacuum
chamber and smother it in asbestos, the asbestos will catch on fire
_in the absence of any atmostphere at all_. There is no known way
to extinguish it. And the main byproducts of it reacting with stuff
is chlorine and fluorine gas. (And it's not *nearly* as dangerous
as dioxygen diflouride, which causes ice to catch on fire at 270
degrees below zero.)
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 23:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <fa2213b2-99a8-4cc3-917c-6fcb1599d6df@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #424048 |
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 10:35:48 PM UTC-7, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in > news:nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com: > > > In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>, > > William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: > >>Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, > >>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and > >>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated > >>>> that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military > >>>> commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the > >>>> other side doing so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do > >>>> so, even with other clear paths to resolve the crisis being > >>>> available. > >>> > >>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have > >>> been used after 1945. > >>> > >>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General > >>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. > >>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he > >>> didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him. > >>> > >>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember > >>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in > >>> fourth grade." > >>> > >>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the > >>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old > >>> soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, > >>> and now I shall fade away." > >>> > >>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, > >>> it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the > >>> lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him. > >> > >>No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of the > >>French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. > > > > There may have been talk. Nobody used them. > > > > In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared > > against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it. They > > had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of following a > > change in the wind and poisoning your own troops, not the > > enemy's. > > > And was dangerous to handle when not in actual use, and really > pissed off the enemy, and a variety of other reasons aginst it. > > The Nazis made, literally, tons of chlorine triflouride at one > point, to use as both a weapon and a rocket fuel. But the stuff is > so dangerous, and a better oxidizer than pure oxygen[1], that they > decided that wasn't a good idea. > > [1]If you spill it in your lab, whatever you spill it on, including > the concrete floor, will catch on fire. If you grab your handy > bucket of sand (no chem lab is complete without several) and dump > that on it, the sand will catch on fire. If you douse it with > water, the water will catch on fire. If you scoop it into a vacuum > chamber and smother it in asbestos, the asbestos will catch on fire > _in the absence of any atmostphere at all_. There is no known way > to extinguish it. And the main byproducts of it reacting with stuff > is chlorine and fluorine gas. (And it's not *nearly* as dangerous > as dioxygen diflouride, which causes ice to catch on fire at 270 > degrees below zero.) And then there's the appropriately named FOOF. This guy details those and other truly terrifying chemicals: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/ It's the sort of stuff some hard SF author ought to use, but editors would probably not believe it. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-02 23:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <muntak$8pu$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #424053 |
On 10/2/15 11:19 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 10:35:48 PM UTC-7, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >> news:nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com: >> >>> In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>, >>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian and >>>>>> military leadership, in which a political crisis is simulated >>>>>> that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the military >>>>>> commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in response to the >>>>>> other side doing so. And the civilian commanders _always_ do >>>>>> so, even with other clear paths to resolve the crisis being >>>>>> available. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might have >>>>> been used after 1945. >>>>> >>>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. >>>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, he >>>>> didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled him. >>>>> >>>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to remember >>>>> when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I was in >>>>> fourth grade." >>>>> >>>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the >>>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say old >>>>> soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old soldier, >>>>> and now I shall fade away." >>>>> >>>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been used, >>>>> it was the military man who wanted to use them, and the >>>>> lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him. >>>> >>>> No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of the >>>> French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. >>> >>> There may have been talk. Nobody used them. >>> >>> In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared >>> against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it. They >>> had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of following a >>> change in the wind and poisoning your own troops, not the >>> enemy's. >>> >> And was dangerous to handle when not in actual use, and really >> pissed off the enemy, and a variety of other reasons aginst it. >> >> The Nazis made, literally, tons of chlorine triflouride at one >> point, to use as both a weapon and a rocket fuel. But the stuff is >> so dangerous, and a better oxidizer than pure oxygen[1], that they >> decided that wasn't a good idea. >> >> [1]If you spill it in your lab, whatever you spill it on, including >> the concrete floor, will catch on fire. If you grab your handy >> bucket of sand (no chem lab is complete without several) and dump >> that on it, the sand will catch on fire. If you douse it with >> water, the water will catch on fire. If you scoop it into a vacuum >> chamber and smother it in asbestos, the asbestos will catch on fire >> _in the absence of any atmostphere at all_. There is no known way >> to extinguish it. And the main byproducts of it reacting with stuff >> is chlorine and fluorine gas. (And it's not *nearly* as dangerous >> as dioxygen diflouride, which causes ice to catch on fire at 270 >> degrees below zero.) > > And then there's the appropriately named FOOF. This guy details those and other truly terrifying chemicals: > > http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/ > > It's the sort of stuff some hard SF author ought to use, but editors would probably not believe it. > > > Mark L. Fergerson > I have read the link, and a bunch of other stuff there. There seems to be a recurring theme there: fluorine. Nasty stuff. I got the impression that FOOF would explode if someone in the next room even thought about it. At least ClF3 has an industrial use. -- Dave Scruggs Captain, Boulder Creek Fire
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| From | Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 00:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.30792238d6c34cfe989937@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #424056 |
In article <muntak$8pu$1@speranza.aioe.org>, bcfd36@cruzio.com says... > > On 10/2/15 11:19 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > I have read the link, and a bunch of other stuff there. There seems to > be a recurring theme there: fluorine. Nasty stuff. I got the impression > that FOOF would explode if someone in the next room even thought about > it. At least ClF3 has an industrial use. Two fluorine atoms joined with two oxygen atoms into one hungry molecule drooling green drool and looking around for something to kill. Not Good. Seriously Not Good. But then I wouldn't take up fluorine chemistry anyway - really not good for your longevity. -- Kay Shapero Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 10:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <1y0n5c7q0rv61.9ogcvha35cmw$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #424057 |
On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 00:23:05 -0700, Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> wrote in<news:MPG.30792238d6c34cfe989937@news.eternal-september.org> in rec.arts.sf.written: [...] > But then I wouldn't take up fluorine chemistry anyway - > really not good for your longevity. Whereas working with mercaptans (thiols) and selenium and tellurium compounds is merely hard on your family. (My father worked with them early in his career; I don’t actually remember the odors after all these years.) Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 08:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <muott7$t6c$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #424056 |
On 10/2/15 11:38 PM, BCFD36 wrote: > I got the impression that FOOF would explode if someone in the next room > even thought about it. PyrE It's back.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 14:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA528951D7A943taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #424056 |
BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:muntak$8pu$1@speranza.aioe.org:
> On 10/2/15 11:19 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote:
>> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 10:35:48 PM UTC-7, Gutless
>> Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>>> news:nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com:
>>>
>>>> In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>,
>>>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian
>>>>>>> and military leadership, in which a political crisis is
>>>>>>> simulated that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the
>>>>>>> military commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in
>>>>>>> response to the other side doing so. And the civilian
>>>>>>> commanders _always_ do so, even with other clear paths to
>>>>>>> resolve the crisis being available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might
>>>>>> have been used after 1945.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General
>>>>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it.
>>>>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was,
>>>>>> he didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled
>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to
>>>>>> remember when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I
>>>>>> was in fourth grade."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the
>>>>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say
>>>>>> old soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old
>>>>>> soldier, and now I shall fade away."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been
>>>>>> used, it was the military man who wanted to use them, and
>>>>>> the lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of
>>>>> the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu.
>>>>
>>>> There may have been talk. Nobody used them.
>>>>
>>>> In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared
>>>> against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it.
>>>> They had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of
>>>> following a change in the wind and poisoning your own troops,
>>>> not the enemy's.
>>>>
>>> And was dangerous to handle when not in actual use, and really
>>> pissed off the enemy, and a variety of other reasons aginst
>>> it.
>>>
>>> The Nazis made, literally, tons of chlorine triflouride at one
>>> point, to use as both a weapon and a rocket fuel. But the
>>> stuff is so dangerous, and a better oxidizer than pure
>>> oxygen[1], that they decided that wasn't a good idea.
>>>
>>> [1]If you spill it in your lab, whatever you spill it on,
>>> including the concrete floor, will catch on fire. If you grab
>>> your handy bucket of sand (no chem lab is complete without
>>> several) and dump that on it, the sand will catch on fire. If
>>> you douse it with water, the water will catch on fire. If you
>>> scoop it into a vacuum chamber and smother it in asbestos, the
>>> asbestos will catch on fire _in the absence of any atmostphere
>>> at all_. There is no known way to extinguish it. And the main
>>> byproducts of it reacting with stuff is chlorine and fluorine
>>> gas. (And it's not *nearly* as dangerous as dioxygen
>>> diflouride, which causes ice to catch on fire at 270 degrees
>>> below zero.)
>>
>> And then there's the appropriately named FOOF. This guy
>> details those and other truly terrifying chemicals:
>>
>> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/
>>
>> It's the sort of stuff some hard SF author ought to use, but
>> editors would probably not believe it.
>>
>>
>> Mark L. Fergerson
>>
> I have read the link, and a bunch of other stuff there. There
> seems to be a recurring theme there: fluorine. Nasty stuff. I
> got the impression that FOOF would explode if someone in the
> next room even thought about it. At least ClF3 has an industrial
> use.
>
It's used to clean circuit boards in some kinds of electronics
manufacturing, and to clean uranium oxides from the inside of
reactor chambers. Industrial use, but not in industrial quantities
(thankfully).
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-03 21:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nvnzAo.152L@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #424092 |
In article <XnsA528951D7A943taustingmail@69.16.179.42>, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >BCFD36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote in >news:muntak$8pu$1@speranza.aioe.org: > >> On 10/2/15 11:19 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: >>> On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 10:35:48 PM UTC-7, Gutless >>> Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: >>>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>>> news:nvMpww.L4n@kithrup.com: >>>> >>>>> In article <mungof$da1$1@dont-email.me>, >>>>> William Vetter <mdhangton@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>>>>>> In article <XnsA527A3CE39C94taustingmail@69.16.179.43>, >>>>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interesting note: in wargames that involve both civilian >>>>>>>> and military leadership, in which a political crisis is >>>>>>>> simulated that could conceivably lead to nuclear war, the >>>>>>>> military commanders _never_ fire their nukes, even in >>>>>>>> response to the other side doing so. And the civilian >>>>>>>> commanders _always_ do so, even with other clear paths to >>>>>>>> resolve the crisis being available. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting. Considering the one time when nukes might >>>>>>> have been used after 1945. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was the Korean War; it wasn't getting anywhere; General >>>>>>> MacArthur wanted to nuke Beijing. Truman forbade it. >>>>>>> MacArthur told everyone what a stupid President Truman was, >>>>>>> he didn't understand military matters. Truman recalled >>>>>>> him. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was in fourth grade, and the teacher told us all to >>>>>>> remember when "General MacArthur came home. You can say, I >>>>>>> was in fourth grade." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They made it as easy on him as possible, under the >>>>>>> circumstances, and he made a speech to Congress: "They say >>>>>>> old soldiers never die, they just fade away; I am an old >>>>>>> soldier, and now I shall fade away." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, in that one instance when nukes *might* have been >>>>>>> used, it was the military man who wanted to use them, and >>>>>>> the lifelong civilian who wouldn't let him. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, there was talk about the US using tacnukes on behalf of >>>>>> the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. >>>>> >>>>> There may have been talk. Nobody used them. >>>>> >>>>> In similar fashion, poison gas was used in WWI and prepared >>>>> against during WWII ... but nobody ever actually used it. >>>>> They had learned that gas had an unpleasant habit of >>>>> following a change in the wind and poisoning your own troops, >>>>> not the enemy's. >>>>> >>>> And was dangerous to handle when not in actual use, and really >>>> pissed off the enemy, and a variety of other reasons aginst >>>> it. >>>> >>>> The Nazis made, literally, tons of chlorine triflouride at one >>>> point, to use as both a weapon and a rocket fuel. But the >>>> stuff is so dangerous, and a better oxidizer than pure >>>> oxygen[1], that they decided that wasn't a good idea. >>>> >>>> [1]If you spill it in your lab, whatever you spill it on, >>>> including the concrete floor, will catch on fire. If you grab >>>> your handy bucket of sand (no chem lab is complete without >>>> several) and dump that on it, the sand will catch on fire. If >>>> you douse it with water, the water will catch on fire. If you >>>> scoop it into a vacuum chamber and smother it in asbestos, the >>>> asbestos will catch on fire _in the absence of any atmostphere >>>> at all_. There is no known way to extinguish it. And the main >>>> byproducts of it reacting with stuff is chlorine and fluorine >>>> gas. (And it's not *nearly* as dangerous as dioxygen >>>> diflouride, which causes ice to catch on fire at 270 degrees >>>> below zero.) >>> >>> And then there's the appropriately named FOOF. This guy >>> details those and other truly terrifying chemicals: >>> >>> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/things_i_wont_work_with/ >>> >>> It's the sort of stuff some hard SF author ought to use, but >>> editors would probably not believe it. >>> >>> >>> Mark L. Fergerson >>> >> I have read the link, and a bunch of other stuff there. There >> seems to be a recurring theme there: fluorine. Nasty stuff. I >> got the impression that FOOF would explode if someone in the >> next room even thought about it. At least ClF3 has an industrial >> use. >> >It's used to clean circuit boards in some kinds of electronics >manufacturing, and to clean uranium oxides from the inside of >reactor chambers. Industrial use, but not in industrial quantities >(thankfully). > Hmmmm. Saved to disk, because I may have fictional use for this. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress. Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
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