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Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth

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  Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-15 09:19 -0600
    Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-15 16:35 +0000
      Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-15 20:45 +0000
        Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-04-15 15:36 -0600
        Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth Wolffan <akwolffan@gmail.com> - 2018-04-15 17:39 -0400
          Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-04-15 21:43 +0000
          Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-15 22:33 +0000
          Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2018-04-15 21:43 -0700
      Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> - 2018-04-16 08:07 -0500
        Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-16 13:26 +0000
        Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth nance@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) - 2018-04-16 14:47 +0000
          Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-16 21:59 +0000
            Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-04-16 22:29 +0000
              Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-16 23:42 +0000
              Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth nance@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) - 2018-04-17 14:07 +0000
                Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-04-17 16:07 +0000
    Re: Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-16 15:13 +0000

#490331 — Thirteen O'Clock by Cyril Kornbluth

This short story is a combination of the Wizard of Oz and Heinlein's 
Magic Incorporated, a brief look at a world built on the "Sufficiently 
reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology." lines.  Flying 
carpets instead of cars, skyscrapers, chemical factories producing magic 
potions and what have you.  And like Magic Incorporated organized crime 
has moved in, although unlike Magic Incorporate organized crime won. 
And unlike Thirteen O'Clock. Magic Incorporated didn't suck so hard it 
could be used to remove chrome from bumpers.

Seriously Thirteen O'Clock is awful from the moment the protagonist 
decides he loves the "witch" he meets based on a minute's acquaintance 
to the ending where he mutilates her because no self-respecting man can 
tolerate his wife being more dangerous than he is.  He cuts off her 
finger to remove her power to blast things and they live happily ever 
after having left the crapsack magical world not one iota better than 
when he arrived.  Spare me.

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#490341

In article <pavqhd$1qtn$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>This short story is a combination of the Wizard of Oz and Heinlein's 
>Magic Incorporated, a brief look at a world built on the "Sufficiently 
>reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology." lines.  Flying 
>carpets instead of cars, skyscrapers, chemical factories producing magic 
>potions and what have you.  And like Magic Incorporated organized crime 
>has moved in, although unlike Magic Incorporate organized crime won. 
>And unlike Thirteen O'Clock. Magic Incorporated didn't suck so hard it 
>could be used to remove chrome from bumpers.

Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>
>Seriously Thirteen O'Clock is awful from the moment the protagonist 
>decides he loves the "witch" he meets based on a minute's acquaintance 
>to the ending where he mutilates her because no self-respecting man can 
>tolerate his wife being more dangerous than he is.  He cuts off her 
>finger to remove her power to blast things and they live happily ever 
>after having left the crapsack magical world not one iota better than 
>when he arrived.  Spare me.

Yes, it sounds awful.  But it was published in 1954 and Kornbluth
died in 1958.  As was said in another context, the past is a
foreign country; they do things differently there.  I lived
through the fifties, and the assumptions about (inter alia)
gender roles were extremely different.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#490366

On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:

> Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.

I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.
-- 
Carl Fink                           nitpicking@nitpicking.com 

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!

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#490380

Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> wrote:

>On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>
>I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
>forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.

I posted a complaint about the ending of book two of Grand Central
Arena here in a forum attended by Ryk E Spoor.

He responded with curiosity, and a conversation back and forth for a
bit left him astonished that a "rivets" reader would even be
comfortable reading GCA.

"Why would you feel that way" is a lot better at keeping fans
impressed than "you jerk".

-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#490381

On 15 Apr 2018, Carl Fink wrote
(in article <slrnpd7ef5.rml.carlf@panix2.panix.com>):

> On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt<djheydt@kithrup.com>  wrote:
>
> > Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
> > It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
> > skill and a laudable attention to detail. There's a whole lot of
> > Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>
> I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
> forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.

I quite liked it. Especially things like David Fisher’s go-to guy for 
warrants, ‘Maximum’ Ruhollah.

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#490382

In article <0001HW.2083FE2403A3940870000942D2CF@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan  <akwolffan@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 15 Apr 2018, Carl Fink wrote
>(in article <slrnpd7ef5.rml.carlf@panix2.panix.com>):
>
>> On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt<djheydt@kithrup.com>  wrote:
>>
>> > Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>> > It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>> > skill and a laudable attention to detail. There's a whole lot of
>> > Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>
>> I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
>> forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.
>
>I quite liked it. Especially things like David Fisher’s go-to guy for 
>warrants, ‘Maximum’ Ruhollah.
>

I thought it was fun, though slight.  And I wouldn't say the world was
just-like-ours.

There were some groaner puns: Virtuous Reality forex.  Of course we know
puns are the only "real" type of human humor.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#490390

In article <0001HW.2083FE2403A3940870000942D2CF@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan  <akwolffan@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 15 Apr 2018, Carl Fink wrote
>(in article <slrnpd7ef5.rml.carlf@panix2.panix.com>):
>
>> On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt<djheydt@kithrup.com>  wrote:
>>
>> > Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>> > It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>> > skill and a laudable attention to detail. There's a whole lot of
>> > Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>
>> I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
>> forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.
>
>I quite liked it. Especially things like David Fisher’s go-to guy for 
>warrants, ‘Maximum’ Ruhollah.

Especially all the place names translated out of Spanish.  Such as
"the The Second freeway."

(Explanation: in Los Angeles and perhaps elsewhere in Southern
California (I don't live there so I'm not sure), drivers refer to
freeways using the definite article.  

(E.g., Interstate Highway 5, which runs up and down the West Coast
from the US/Canadian border to the US/Mexican border, is called "I-5"
in the northern part of California.  In the south, it's called "the
Five."  So Turtledove's protagonist is driving down a freeway which
he calles "the The Second," and wonders why the extra "the".  In OTL
it's "the El Segundo.")

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#490427

In article <0001HW.2083FE2403A3940870000942D2CF@news.supernews.com>,
 Wolffan <akwolffan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15 Apr 2018, Carl Fink wrote
> (in article <slrnpd7ef5.rml.carlf@panix2.panix.com>):
> 
> > On 2018-04-15, Dorothy J Heydt<djheydt@kithrup.com>  wrote:
> >
> > > Have you read Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
> > > It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
> > > skill and a laudable attention to detail. There's a whole lot of
> > > Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
> >
> > I read it and found it astonishingly bad. I inadvertently posted that in a
> > forum (GEnie's SFRT) that Mr. Turtledove read, offending him. Whoops.
> 
> I quite liked it. Especially things like David Fisher’s go-to guy for 
> warrants, ‘Maximum’ Ruhollah.

I noticed him as well; I can see why some people would consider that to 
be excessively cute and toss the book.

-- 
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

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#490442

On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.

I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
able to read.  And I have reread it several times.

Bill

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#490444

In article <pb275s$4d3$2@dont-email.me>, Bill Gill  <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>
>I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>able to read.  And I have reread it several times.

I'll also suggest the "fixup novel" _Earthgrip,_ which is a
collection of two stories and a novella.  The protagonist is an
academic who's signed aboard a trading ship to flesh out her
resume.  In the first story she solves a problem by having read
Heinlein.  In the second, she solves another by having read
Sherlock Holmes.  But in the novella, she solves a much serious
problem by being familiar with *the concept of science fiction*
as an aid to creative thinking.  Worth a read; I even reread it
occasionally.

He also has a novella "Down in the Bottomlands" which was
published bundled with de Camp's "The Wheels of If."  Thesis:
the Mediterranean basin hasn't filled up recently and both
Neanderthals (or something looking very like them) and modern
humans are living around the basin and have atomic weapons....

And that's all the Turtledove I can recommend, bar a couple of
short stories such as "The Road Not Taken."

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#490452

Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
> 
> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.

I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
hit for me. 

Tony

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#490489

In article <pb2d2s$9vu$1@dont-email.me>,
Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>> 
>> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.
>
>I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
>person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
>It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
>secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
>Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
>the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
>hit for me. 

I have read only one bit of that alt-hist, a short story whose
title I can't remember ... but it featured Turtledove's major
POD, a fantatical Christian monk named Mohammed.  :)

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#490491

In article <p7At30.q3n@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <pb2d2s$9vu$1@dont-email.me>,
>Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>>>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>>>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>>>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>> 
>>> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>>> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.
>>
>>I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
>>person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
>>It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
>>secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
>>Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
>>the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
>>hit for me. 
>
>I have read only one bit of that alt-hist, a short story whose
>title I can't remember ... but it featured Turtledove's major
>POD, a fantatical Christian monk named Mohammed.  :)
>

Almost every story mentioned that as it was the divergence point.

Also, probably why they don't get reprinted..
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#490503

In article <fjkmehFkvpiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>In article <p7At30.q3n@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <pb2d2s$9vu$1@dont-email.me>,
>>Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>>>>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>>>>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>>>>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>>> 
>>>> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>>>> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.
>>>
>>>I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
>>>person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
>>>It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
>>>secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
>>>Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
>>>the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
>>>hit for me. 
>>
>>I have read only one bit of that alt-hist, a short story whose
>>title I can't remember ... but it featured Turtledove's major
>>POD, a fantatical Christian monk named Mohammed.  :)
>>
>
>Almost every story mentioned that as it was the divergence point.

So I've been told.  (Note, I do know that's the POD.)  But I've
never encountered any of the other stories.

>Also, probably why they don't get reprinted..

Which is probably why I've never encountered them.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#490524

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> In article <p7At30.q3n@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <pb2d2s$9vu$1@dont-email.me>,
>>Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>>>>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>>>>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>>>>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>>> 
>>>> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>>>> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.
>>>
>>>I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
>>>person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
>>>It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
>>>secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
>>>Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
>>>the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
>>>hit for me. 
>>
>>I have read only one bit of that alt-hist, a short story whose
>>title I can't remember ... but it featured Turtledove's major
>>POD, a fantatical Christian monk named Mohammed.  :)
>>
> 
> Almost every story mentioned that as it was the divergence point.
> 
> Also, probably why they don't get reprinted..

I don't know about the individual stories, but according to isfdb, 
there are e-book releases of the AoB fix-up/collection from 2013 
(Gateway/Orion) and 2015 (Open Road Integrated Media), and a paper 
version (perhaps trade paperback) that is slated for release in 
May of 2018, also by Open Road Integrated Media.

Tony

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#490531

In article <pb4v3j$mjo$1@dont-email.me>,
Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>> In article <p7At30.q3n@kithrup.com>,
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <pb2d2s$9vu$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>Anthony Nance <nance@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>>Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/15/2018 11:35 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>> Have you read Turtledove's_The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_?
>>>>>> It's alternate-world-just-like-ours-except-with-magic done with
>>>>>> skill and a laudable attention to detail.  There's a whole lot of
>>>>>> Turtledove I can't/won't read, but this is an exception.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I fully agree.  Spell Dump is the only Turtledove I have been
>>>>> able to read.  And I have reread it several times.
>>>>
>>>>I very much enjoyed Spell Dump. I'm not a big alternate history
>>>>person, but let me also suggest Turtledove's  _Agent of Byzantium_ .
>>>>It's basically a fix-up of short stories that feature Byzantine 
>>>>secret agent Basil Argyros, set in an alternate 14th Century. 
>>>>Argyros is sent across the empire to solve various problems, and 
>>>>the stories hit some (some!) of the same notes that "Lest Darkness Fall"
>>>>hit for me. 
>>>
>>>I have read only one bit of that alt-hist, a short story whose
>>>title I can't remember ... but it featured Turtledove's major
>>>POD, a fantatical Christian monk named Mohammed.  :)
>>>
>> 
>> Almost every story mentioned that as it was the divergence point.
>> 
>> Also, probably why they don't get reprinted..
>
>I don't know about the individual stories, but according to isfdb, 
>there are e-book releases of the AoB fix-up/collection from 2013 
>(Gateway/Orion) and 2015 (Open Road Integrated Media), and a paper 
>version (perhaps trade paperback) that is slated for release in 
>May of 2018, also by Open Road Integrated Media.
>

Hmm.  OK, I guess I didn't see the eboos because I wasn't looking 
for them.

Brave man.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#490455

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This short story is a combination of the Wizard of Oz and Heinlein's
> Magic Incorporated, a brief look at a world built on the "Sufficiently
> reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology." lines.  Flying
> carpets instead of cars, skyscrapers, chemical factories producing magic
> potions and what have you.  And like Magic Incorporated organized crime
> has moved in, although unlike Magic Incorporate organized crime won.
> And unlike Thirteen O'Clock. Magic Incorporated didn't suck so hard it
> could be used to remove chrome from bumpers.
>
> Seriously Thirteen O'Clock is awful from the moment the protagonist
> decides he loves the "witch" he meets based on a minute's acquaintance
> to the ending where he mutilates her because no self-respecting man can
> tolerate his wife being more dangerous than he is.  He cuts off her
> finger to remove her power to blast things and they live happily ever
> after having left the crapsack magical world not one iota better than
> when he arrived.  Spare me.

Crapsack infrastructure made of half-stuff that vanishes if the bums
ever get voted out of office. That sounds about right. Strive to make
the majority of voters dependent upon the status-quo.
    And a winner-take-all wrestling bout near the end. Shades of
_Dune_!

Thank you,

--
Don

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