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First Dragons as shapeshifters story?

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  First Dragons as shapeshifters story? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-10-17 01:19 +0000
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-16 19:38 -0600
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-10-16 18:44 -0700
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 18:45 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-10-16 20:11 -0700
        Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-10-16 20:30 -0700
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2016-10-17 02:00 +0000
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 21:28 -0500
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 19:37 -0700
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-10-16 19:59 -0700
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 22:00 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-10-17 13:48 +0000
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-16 22:50 -0700
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-16 23:51 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-17 00:10 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-17 00:11 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-17 02:49 -0600
    Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-17 14:31 -0700
      Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-17 15:49 -0600
        Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-18 11:14 -0700
          Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-10-18 19:56 +0000
            Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-18 14:31 -0700
            Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2016-10-18 16:21 -0700
        Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2016-10-18 15:05 -0500
          Re: First Dragons as shapeshifters story? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-18 14:40 -0600

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#454158 — First Dragons as shapeshifters story?

Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?

The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#454159

On 10/16/2016 7:19 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
>
Mercedes Lackey had a couple in the SERRATED Edge series in the 90s. 
Same thing with the Halfblood Chronicles.  Then there's Journey To the 
West, but those aren't western dragons of course.

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#454160

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 9:19:59 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> 
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

R. A. MacAvoy's _Tea with the Black Dragon_ was published in 1983.

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#454161

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 12:19:59 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> 
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

Well the Dragonlance books had dragons taking humanoid forms in the 80s.
I think that the AD&D monster manual had gold dragons able to do it, certainly the Platinum dragon could (but he was basically a god so...) 
I think it came out around 77 and I'd be surprised if it was the first place.

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#454173

In article <40ac18dc-d799-4e1e-bf8e-4814b29dab5b@googlegroups.com>, 
hamish.laws@gmail.com says...
> 
> On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 12:19:59 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan
> <tednolan> wrote:
> > Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> > first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> > 
> > The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> > but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that. I think it
> > postdates Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was
> > 1976..
> 
> Well the Dragonlance books had dragons taking humanoid forms in the
> 80s. I think that the AD&D monster manual had gold dragons able to do
> it, certainly the Platinum dragon could (but he was basically a god
> so...) I think it came out around 77 and I'd be surprised if it was
> the first place.

The original D&D gold dragons could do it back in 1974.  I had two in 
Robber's Roost dungeon who routinely appeared as something other than 
large and scaly (one an elderly Chinese gentleman, the other a young 
woman.) 

-- 

Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.

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#454178

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 2:12:01 PM UTC+11, Kay Shapero wrote:
> In article <40ac18dc-d799-4e1e-bf8e-4814b29dab5b@googlegroups.com>, 
> hamish.laws@gmail.com says...
> > 
> > On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 12:19:59 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan
> > <tednolan> wrote:
> > > Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> > > first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> > > 
> > > The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> > > but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that. I think it
> > > postdates Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was
> > > 1976..
> > 
> > Well the Dragonlance books had dragons taking humanoid forms in the
> > 80s. I think that the AD&D monster manual had gold dragons able to do
> > it, certainly the Platinum dragon could (but he was basically a god
> > so...) I think it came out around 77 and I'd be surprised if it was
> > the first place.
> 
> The original D&D gold dragons could do it back in 1974.  I had two in 
> Robber's Roost dungeon who routinely appeared as something other than 
> large and scaly (one an elderly Chinese gentleman, the other a young 
> woman.) 

Going back further, the UKLeG short story "The Rule of Names" (1964) had Yevaud, later stared down by Ged in "A Wizard of Earthsea", a dragon who assumed human form.

-Moriarty

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#454162

In article <e6in9kFgpkqU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
>first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>
>The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
>but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
>Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

Not quite what you asked, but Diane Duane had a human take dragon
form, in a weird sui-generis way (not general shapeshifting), in /The
Door into Shadow/ -- so that's mid-1980s.

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

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#454166

On 10/16/2016 8:19 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

Sarah Hoyt's _Draw One in the Dark_ predates that 2007 book in 2006.

I am remembering something way back though.  Did Andre Norton write a 
dragon shape shifter book ?

Lynn

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#454167

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 1:28:47 PM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/16/2016 8:19 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> > first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> >
> > The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> > but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> > Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
> 
> Sarah Hoyt's _Draw One in the Dark_ predates that 2007 book in 2006.
> 
> I am remembering something way back though.  Did Andre Norton write a 
> dragon shape shifter book ?
> 
Cowrote a series with Mercedes Lackey, Elvenbane, Elvenblood, Elvenborn. Apparently there's a 4th book which was planned.
First release was in 91 so it's not going to be the earliest one.

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#454171

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 12:19:59 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> 
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

Raymond E. Feist's dragons could do that.  The earliest novel in which it occurred was "A Darkness at Sethanon" (1986).

-Moriarty

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#454190

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 8:19:59 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?

I'm not sure if this one counts or not. The title character of "Gerda"
by Evelyn E. Smith (F&SF, April 1954) is a dragon in human form, all
right, but not through any shape-shifting power of her own. She was
under an enchantment, until she was released from her enchantment by a
kiss and reverted to dragon form.

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#454214

Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 8:19:59 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
>> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>
> I'm not sure if this one counts or not. The title character of "Gerda"
> by Evelyn E. Smith (F&SF, April 1954) is a dragon in human form, all
> right, but not through any shape-shifting power of her own. She was
> under an enchantment, until she was released from her enchantment by a
> kiss and reverted to dragon form.

Gerda as a dragon also violates shape-shifting conservation of volume,
if that matters. It's a fun story.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

    Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not
prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge
dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who
deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth and its angels were
thrown down with it. Rev 12:7-9

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#454192

I'm remembering something where dragons are usually in human form - from some old 
Marvel comic books. But I can't think of any details, so I may be completely 
mistaken.

John Savard

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#454201

On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> 
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..

I think it's normal in Chinese tradition - _Journey to the West_
for instance - but I'm not sure.  I suppose that "western"
dragons are more "dangerous animal" originally than 
"magical being" - but, no, hang on, aren't some of those
the children of Greek / Roman / Norse gods?
Indeed <http://www.dragonsinn.net/middle_east4b.htm> 
offers "Famous Babylonian Dragons" which apparently 
are 
the gods.  And fought almost like Kilkenny cats.  
Or rather like _Highlander_; one left.

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#454204

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 12:51:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> I think it's normal in Chinese tradition - _Journey to the West_
> for instance -

And I think that's where Marvel got it from. I'm not sure if it was Fin Fang Foom 
that pulled that stunt...

John Savard

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#454205

On Monday, 17 October 2016 07:51:31 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie  wrote:
> On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
> > Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> > first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> > 
> > The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> > but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> > Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
> 
> I think it's normal in Chinese tradition - _Journey to the West_
> for instance - but I'm not sure.  I suppose that "western"
> dragons are more "dangerous animal" originally than 
> "magical being" - but, no, hang on, aren't some of those
> the children of Greek / Roman / Norse gods?
> Indeed <http://www.dragonsinn.net/middle_east4b.htm> 
> offers "Famous Babylonian Dragons" which apparently 
> are 
> the gods.  And fought almost like Kilkenny cats.  
> Or rather like _Highlander_; one left.

Wait, I think I made another mistake: Marduk (last god 
standing) isn't a dragon?  Or is he?

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#454210

On 10/17/2016 12:51 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
>> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
>> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>>
>> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
>> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
>> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
>
> I think it's normal in Chinese tradition - _Journey to the West_
> for instance - but I'm not sure.  I suppose that "western"
> dragons are more "dangerous animal" originally than
> "magical being" - but, no, hang on, aren't some of those
> the children of Greek / Roman / Norse gods?
> Indeed <http://www.dragonsinn.net/middle_east4b.htm>
> offers "Famous Babylonian Dragons" which apparently
> are
> the gods.  And fought almost like Kilkenny cats.
> Or rather like _Highlander_; one left.
>

Middle Eastern "dragons" are actually quite distinct from both western 
and eastern dragons.

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#454290

On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> 
> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
> -- 
> ------
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..

Do we count _The Voyage of he Dawn Treader_ (1952) and
does it matter?

How much happens in the book of _The Sword in the Stone_
(1938) as well as the Disney movie?

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#454295

On 10/17/2016 3:31 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
>> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
>> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
>>
>> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
>> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
>> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
>> --
>> ------
>> columbiaclosings.com
>> What's not in Columbia anymore..
>
> Do we count _The Voyage of he Dawn Treader_ (1952) and
> does it matter?
>
> How much happens in the book of _The Sword in the Stone_
> (1938) as well as the Disney movie?
>

People who turn into dragons are different from dragons who turn into 
people.

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#454458

On Monday, 17 October 2016 22:49:31 UTC+1, David Johnston  wrote:
> On 10/17/2016 3:31 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19:59 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan>  wrote:
> >> Of course, dragons have been in fantasy forever, but what whas the
> >> first story to use the current "dragons can take human form" trope?
> >>
> >> The first that comes to mind is C.E. Murphy's "Negotiator" series,
> >> but that was 2007, and I'm sure it predates that.  I think it postdates
> >> Dickson's "Dragon & George" books though and that was 1976..
> >> --
> >> ------
> >> columbiaclosings.com
> >> What's not in Columbia anymore..
> >
> > Do we count _The Voyage of he Dawn Treader_ (1952) and
> > does it matter?
> >
> > How much happens in the book of _The Sword in the Stone_
> > (1938) as well as the Disney movie?
> >
> 
> People who turn into dragons are different from dragons who turn into 
> people.

Are, they, though?

If they can do both, I mean.  If they can do it more
than once.

And, suppose you turned yourself into a dragon - why 
/would/ you turn back?  Needing to take care of admin is 
all that I can think of.  And, when you're a dragon,
maybe the admin doesn't matter.

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