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Creative Political Systems in SF

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  Creative Political Systems in SF michael <me@here.com> - 2016-05-01 00:26 -0500
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-05-01 08:01 +0100
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-01 21:29 +0000
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 14:55 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:20 -0700
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 20:57 -0400
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 19:11 -0700
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:47 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 21:06 -0700
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-03 08:32 +0800
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:33 -0400
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 20:02 +0300
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 20:48 -0700
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:51 -0400
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-03 08:35 +0800
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 20:14 +0300
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-05-04 12:17 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 12:30 -0700
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-04 20:03 +0000
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-04 13:57 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-05 10:24 +0800
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 22:38 -0400
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-05 06:03 +0300
                        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 07:08 -0400
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-05 15:14 -0700
                            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 15:54 -0700
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 17:03 -0700
                            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 20:27 -0400
                        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-06 10:16 +0800
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:15 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-05-01 23:52 -0400
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 21:10 -0700
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "cycjec"<cycjec@freeshell.INVALID> - 2016-05-04 13:32 +0000
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-01 07:41 -0500
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 10:24 -0700
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 11:23 -0700
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 11:56 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 16:57 -0400
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:12 -0700
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-02 07:32 -0400
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 19:59 +0300
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 17:00 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-10 14:23 +0000
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:05 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-01 18:30 -0500
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF michael <me@here.com> - 2016-05-03 19:32 -0500
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 19:56 +0300
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-05-07 13:50 -0400
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 09:17 +0200
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 14:15 -0500
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-09 22:56 +0300
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 15:02 -0500
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-09 13:57 -0700
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-05-09 21:00 +0000
                        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-05-09 18:09 -0700
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-09 18:52 -0700
                            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-09 19:35 -0700
                              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-05-11 21:29 -0400
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 09:37 -0400
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-10 12:06 -0500
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 16:06 -0500
                        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-09 19:11 -0500
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 09:36 -0400
                            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-10 12:04 -0500
                              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 13:11 -0400
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-09 21:45 -0600
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-09 21:39 -0600
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-09 15:26 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 18:14 -0500
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 13:56 -0600
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-01 13:07 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:10 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 17:00 -0600
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 16:11 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 18:12 -0600
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:26 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-02 08:56 +0800
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:40 -0700
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-01 18:21 -0500
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-01 22:57 -0300
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 21:33 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 22:33 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:54 -0400
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-06 17:18 +0000
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-06 17:58 +0000
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:14 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:27 -0700
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-05-07 10:05 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-07 17:29 +0000
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 17:04 -0700
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-05-06 23:04 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 04:53 -0400
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-05-07 20:55 -0700
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 00:07 -0400
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-09 10:11 -0400
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-09 10:08 -0400
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-07 14:25 -0600
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-08 04:52 -0500
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 15:37 -0700
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-09 02:20 -0700
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 17:44 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:06 -0700
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-06 22:08 +0000
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-07 00:19 -0300
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-07 00:21 -0300
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:22 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-07 08:37 -0700
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-07 14:29 -0600
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-09 16:34 +0000
                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-10 08:52 +0800
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-09 18:48 -0700
                      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-05-09 20:31 -0700
                        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-11 08:33 +0800
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-11 05:42 -0700
                            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-12 08:29 +0800
                              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-12 02:51 -0700
                                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Stephen Allcroft <stephenallcroft@lycos.co.uk> - 2016-05-12 07:59 -0700
                                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-12 15:17 -0700
                                    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 00:35 -0700
                          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-11 18:31 +0000
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-06 16:30 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-05-07 00:09 -0400
                Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-07 11:48 +0000
                  Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:28 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-07 09:43 +0800
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-02 03:55 -0700
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 16:56 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-07 19:30 -0700
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-02 08:47 +0800
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-02 11:23 -0700
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-02 15:18 -0600
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-03 02:11 -0700
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-05-03 21:35 +0100
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:44 -0700
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-03 03:57 +0000
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-05-03 04:10 +0000
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-06 22:48 +0000
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 11:52 -0700
    Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-04 17:12 -0500
      Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-04 17:51 -0500
        Re: Creative Political Systems in SF hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-05-04 16:56 -0700
          Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 16:45 -0700
            Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:09 -0700
              Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-07 14:40 -0700

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#439694

On 5/6/16 11:06 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:

> Having to hand wash the dishes the dishwaster did a piss poor job on
> is even more time-consuming.

Get a sterilizing dish washer and learn to ignore the baked on crust 
spots. They'll eventually flake off, and being sterile can't hurt you.

Part of the problem of expanding housework is raising expectations to 
consume free time. Have to account for raised expectations in any 
housework evolution discussion.

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#439705

I've been using Nanny Ogg's method for housework lately -- have my
daughter-in-law do it.  Definitely a time-saver.




-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#439713

Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote:
> 
> I've been using Nanny Ogg's method for housework lately -- have my
> daughter-in-law do it.  Definitely a time-saver.

Sneaky. However, how much effort was it to raise the kid who brought the
daughter-in-law into the house? There may be some costs involved that
aren't being factored in fully!

As a no-kids couple, we're big fans of our labour-saving devices. They give
us time to cook, which we enjoy.

And for those complaining about their dishwashers, I'm using a Bosch
Classixx SGS45. My sister has an SMS50 and it's the same too quality of
wash.

Cheers - Jaimie

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#439717

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-4, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote:
> > 
> > I've been using Nanny Ogg's method for housework lately -- have my
> > daughter-in-law do it.  Definitely a time-saver.
> 
> Sneaky. However, how much effort was it to raise the kid who brought the
> daughter-in-law into the house? There may be some costs involved that
> aren't being factored in fully!
> 
> As a no-kids couple, we're big fans of our labour-saving devices. They give
> us time to cook, which we enjoy.
> 
> And for those complaining about their dishwashers, I'm using a Bosch
> Classixx SGS45. My sister has an SMS50 and it's the same too quality of
> wash.

As one of nine kids, even when we used the dishwasher there were
things we didn't put in it: pots and pans, mostly.  We washed those
by hand.  We also didn't use our dishwasher most nights.  When you
have 11 people for dinner every night, the kids get assigned to
rotating 3-child teams: a washer, a dryer, and an assistant dryer,
who takes breaks from drying to put the dry stuff back in the cupboards.

Very "Cheaper By The Dozen," if less regimented than the Gilbreths.

Kevin R

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#439700

On 7/05/2016 1:18 AM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> schrieb:
>
>> My mother went farther, and asserted that there is no such thing as a
>> labor-saving gadget:  buy one, and you end up working harder than
>> before.
>
>> I have yet to find an exception to her rule.
>
> Dishwashers.
>
> Having to stand in the kitchen doing the dishes after each meal
> was quite time-consuming.
>
Helps the digestion.

-- 
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

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#439429

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 7:23:43 PM UTC+1, patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
(trimmed)
> 
> Our current system is part the way there.  There are more people than there is work to do.  This "suplus labor" is supposed to "reinvent themselves."   Yeah right.  It is such a strange problem for a system to have: abundance and surplus leads to conflict.  Everybody is supposed to work hard, but they can't.  There is not enough work to be done.  I think  this is the basis of the current unrest.

Just listened to http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=3484 "Understanding the Stagnation of Modern Economies" - Robert Hall. Buried in there is a comment that affordable and entertaining video games are causing some people not to take marginal jobs that they previously might have taken just to give them something to do. So if we do end up with technologies that mean that most people don't have useful work to do, they may not feel that they have lost a great deal by this.

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#439750

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:23:43 PM UTC-6, patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
> It is such a strange problem for a system to have: abundance and surplus leads 
> to conflict.  Everybody is supposed to work hard, but they can't.  There is not 
> enough work to be done.  I think  this is the basis of the current unrest.

Actually, our current economic problem is an old one, not a new one, and it is 
caused by scarcity, not abundance.

Unemployment basically results from people not having enough resources 
available to be able to translate their labor into wealth.

If, when factories closed down, the people working on them could just go off 
and support themselves by hunting and fishing, then they wouldn't need 
"handouts", there wouldn't be unrest, there wouldn't be a problem. But there is 
no longer enough land available where people can go and hunt and fish to live - 
the population has increased to a level that deprives people of this choice, 
and forces them to be dependent on employers if they aren't landowners.

Much of the debate between "free enterprise" and "socialism" simply ignores the 
limits to the environment.

John Savard

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#439761

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 7:57:01 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:23:43 PM UTC-6, patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It is such a strange problem for a system to have: abundance and surplus leads 
> > to conflict.  Everybody is supposed to work hard, but they can't.  There is not 
> > enough work to be done.  I think  this is the basis of the current unrest.
> 
> Actually, our current economic problem is an old one, not a new one, and it is 
> caused by scarcity, not abundance.
> 
> Unemployment basically results from people not having enough resources 
> available to be able to translate their labor into wealth.
> 
> If, when factories closed down, the people working on them could just go off 
> and support themselves by hunting and fishing, then they wouldn't need 
> "handouts", there wouldn't be unrest, there wouldn't be a problem. But there is 
> no longer enough land available where people can go and hunt and fish to live - 
> the population has increased to a level that deprives people of this choice, 
> and forces them to be dependent on employers if they aren't landowners.
> 
> Much of the debate between "free enterprise" and "socialism" simply ignores the 
> limits to the environment.
> 
> John Savard

No arguments there.

In colonial days there was sometimes difficulty in getting the natives to work for the colonialists.  They were self-sufficient and not interested in what the colonizer had to sell.  So a tax was imposed.  The natives had to work to pay the tax.  

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#439363

On 1/05/2016 1:26 PM, michael wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.

When you say "Facebook", perhaps you don't control who accesses your 
Facebook page strictly enough, or perhaps you just stickybeak other 
people's pages. My "Facebook" is entirely family and very close friends 
and politics only comes in when somebody finds something particularly funny.

Facebook has its faults, but politics are put there not by FB but by 
people and if you invite people like that to your Facebook page, it 
really is your own fault.
-- 
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

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#439451

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 06:26:16 UTC+1, michael  wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.  
> 
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.   
> 
> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
> 
> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing 
> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off 
> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to 
> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
> 
> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> election cycle?

Joe Haldeman's _Buying Time_ aka _The Long Habit of Living_
has some action set in "The Conch Republic", which according
to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic> "has 
multiple issues".  

I don't know whether Professor Haldeman invented the backstory
where the secessionists read aloud each page of the American 
legal code to be voted yea or nay by the people assembled in 
the saloon, with some unexpected consequences when whatever
was on the other side of the page was by default also rejected.

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#439467

On 4/30/2016 11:26 PM, michael wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>
> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>
> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>
> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> election cycle?
>

Piers Anthony had that book where the militaries of two opposing worlds 
decided that rather than fight, they would jointly agree to conquer each 
other's planets in order to fulfill Anthony's favourite fantasy, 
"eliminating all the useless eaters".  You'll note that he goes back to 
this theme again, again, and again, people who are deemed to be 
valueless by a ruling oligarchy and are therefore eliminated from 
society by exile or execution.

There was another book where society was ruled by a computer 
intelligence programmed by destructively uploading human minds who were 
democratically elected for the "honor".

Margaret Weis did an ersatz French Revolution IN SPACE but here the 
"aristocrats" were actually genetically engineered to be "superior" and 
the only reason the revolution succeeded is because the leader of the 
revolution was another aristocrat.

Isaac Asimov did a short story where every term a single voter was 
selected by computer as the most perfectly representative voter, and 
therefore the only one to actually vote.  (Which reflects HIS recurrent 
theme, making critical decisions through statistical projections)

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#439497

On Monday, 2 May 2016 22:18:31 UTC+1, David Johnston  wrote:
> Piers Anthony had that book where the militaries of two opposing worlds 
> decided that rather than fight, they would jointly agree to conquer each 
> other's planets in order to fulfill Anthony's favourite fantasy, 
> "eliminating all the useless eaters".  You'll note that he goes back to 
> this theme again, again, and again, people who are deemed to be 
> valueless by a ruling oligarchy and are therefore eliminated from 
> society by exile or execution.

Star Trek had an episode about someone like that.

Also: <http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham>

(May be not the best place to look, and misses out the full
explanation of the Great Circling Poets of Arium, which is
quite a good bit)

"Tales of impending doom allowed the Golgafrinchans to 
rid themselves of an entire useless third of their 
population. The story was that they would build three 
Ark ships. Into the A ship would go all the leaders, 
scientists and other high achievers. The C ship would 
contain all the people who made things and did things, 
and the B ark would hold everyone else, such as 
hairdressers and telephone sanitizers. They sent the 
B ship off first, but of course the other two-thirds 
of the population stayed on the planet and lived full, 
rich and happy lives until they were all wiped out by 
a virulent disease contracted from a dirty telephone."

And where did the B ship land, boys and girls?
"Well, not so much land..."  Let's say crash-land.
What planet did the survivors colonise?  Oh.  
You've heard.

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#439521

On Tue, 3 May 2016 02:11:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Monday, 2 May 2016 22:18:31 UTC+1, David Johnston  wrote:
>> Piers Anthony had that book where the militaries of two opposing worlds 
>> decided that rather than fight, they would jointly agree to conquer each 
>> other's planets in order to fulfill Anthony's favourite fantasy, 
>> "eliminating all the useless eaters".  You'll note that he goes back to 
>> this theme again, again, and again, people who are deemed to be 
>> valueless by a ruling oligarchy and are therefore eliminated from 
>> society by exile or execution.
>
>Star Trek had an episode about someone like that.
>
>Also: <http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham>
>
>(May be not the best place to look, and misses out the full
>explanation of the Great Circling Poets of Arium, which is
>quite a good bit)
>
>"Tales of impending doom allowed the Golgafrinchans to 
>rid themselves of an entire useless third of their 
>population. The story was that they would build three 
>Ark ships. Into the A ship would go all the leaders, 
>scientists and other high achievers. The C ship would 
>contain all the people who made things and did things, 
>and the B ark would hold everyone else, such as 
>hairdressers and telephone sanitizers. They sent the 
>B ship off first, but of course the other two-thirds 
>of the population stayed on the planet and lived full, 
>rich and happy lives until they were all wiped out by 
>a virulent disease contracted from a dirty telephone."
>
>And where did the B ship land, boys and girls?
>"Well, not so much land..."  Let's say crash-land.
>What planet did the survivors colonise?

Fintelwoodlewix

>Oh.  
>You've heard.

-- 
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

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#439473

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:26:16 AM UTC-5, michael wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.  
> 
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.   
> 
> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
> 
> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing 
> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off 
> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to 
> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
> 
> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> election cycle?

"Polity and Custom of the Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty.

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#439478

Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:26:16 AM UTC-5, michael wrote:
>> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
>> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
>> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>>
>> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
>> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
>> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>>
>> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
>> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
>> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>>
>> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
>> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
>> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
>> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
>> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>>
>> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
>> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
>> election cycle?
>
> "Polity and Custom of the Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty.

"Galaxy" June 1967. Thank you. This story goes further than Dorothy in
regards to tongue-in-cheek. :0)

    with the tongue so far in the cheek that it comes out the
    vulgar body aperture

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#439479

In article <20160502b@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz  <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:26:16 AM UTC-5, michael wrote:
>>> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
>>> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
>>> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>>>
>>> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
>>> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
>>> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>>>
>>> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
>>> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
>>> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>>>
>>> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
>>> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
>>> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
>>> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
>>> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>>>
>>> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
>>> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
>>> election cycle?
>>
>> "Polity and Custom of the Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty.
>
>"Galaxy" June 1967. Thank you. This story goes further than Dorothy in
>regards to tongue-in-cheek. :0)
>
>    with the tongue so far in the cheek that it comes out the
>    vulgar body aperture
>

I am sure there are many other baroque examples of ways to govern
in Vance, but I've always been fond of "Dodkin's Job".
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#439692

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> In article <20160502b@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz  <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 12:26:16 AM UTC-5, michael wrote:
>>>> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
>>>> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
>>>> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>>>>
>>>> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
>>>> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
>>>> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>>>>
>>>> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
>>>> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
>>>> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>>>>
>>>> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
>>>> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
>>>> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
>>>> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
>>>> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
>>>> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
>>>> election cycle?
>>>
>>> "Polity and Custom of the Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty.
>>
>>"Galaxy" June 1967. Thank you. This story goes further than Dorothy in
>>regards to tongue-in-cheek. :0)
>>
>>    with the tongue so far in the cheek that it comes out the
>>    vulgar body aperture
>>
>
> I am sure there are many other baroque examples of ways to govern
> in Vance, but I've always been fond of "Dodkin's Job".

"Astounding" October 1959. Thank you. :0)

    When action grows unprofitable, gather information; when
    information grows unprofitable, sleep. - Ursula K LeGuin

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#439516

On Saturday, April 30, 2016 at 10:26:16 PM UTC-7, michael wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.  
> 
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.

  I wish us bigjobs were as politically savvy as the Nac Mac Feegle.

  "Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!"

  Oh, wait- Hillary wants to be our kelda...

> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
> 
> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing 
> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off 
> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to 
> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.

  And some people wonder why Libs are so insistent on "gun control"...

> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> election cycle?

  Not really, but a semi-YASID...

  I recall a story listing the social/political systems of ETs, including a small number of "weird things" nobody could figure out how they worked.

  I wondered if that was bias on the part of the investigators- they could see quite well how the systems worked but found them so offensive they refused to admit they understood them.


  Mark L. Fergerson

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#439583

On 5/1/2016 12:26 AM, michael wrote:
> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>
> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>
> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>
> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>
> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> election cycle?

If I remember correctly (and that is highly debatable nowadays), the new USA President in _The War After Armageddon_ by Ralph Peters 
offers a blanket pardon to anyone who kills a liberal after LA and Las Vegas are nuked.  Most of the federal officials and judges are 
killed.
     http://www.amazon.com/War-After-Armageddon-Ralph-Peters/dp/0765323559/

Lynn

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#439586

On 5/4/2016 5:12 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 5/1/2016 12:26 AM, michael wrote:
>> I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
>> happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
>> facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
>>
>> Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
>> at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
>> Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
>>
>> Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
>> me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
>> Planet by H. Beam Piper.
>>
>> The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
>> politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
>> scott free.   All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
>> coming."   This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
>> how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
>>
>> Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
>> that  might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
>> election cycle?
>
> If I remember correctly (and that is highly debatable nowadays), the new USA President in _The War After Armageddon_ by Ralph Peters
> offers a blanket pardon to anyone who kills a liberal after LA and Las Vegas are nuked.  Most of the federal officials and judges are
> killed.
>     http://www.amazon.com/War-After-Armageddon-Ralph-Peters/dp/0765323559/
>
> Lynn

I forgot about the muslim purges in Europe and the USA after the nukes in LA, LV, and most of the European cities in the book.

Lynn

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