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Groups > rec.arts.sf.science > #24264 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-05 03:35 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 438 — 18 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-05 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-09 03:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 05:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 18:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 05:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 20:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 03:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-17 10:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 03:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-18 17:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-21 12:13 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-21 22:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-04-21 15:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-23 06:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-23 14:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-25 11:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-26 00:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 02:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 00:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-17 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:07 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-07 02:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-05 08:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-07 08:28 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-05 13:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 09:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 01:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-08 07:10 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 07:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-08 08:20 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 07:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 12:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 12:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 03:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-07 08:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 20:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-08 08:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 04:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-13 20:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-04 08:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 21:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-05 08:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 00:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon martins.jtaz@gmail.com - 2016-04-07 06:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Patrick Janecke <pjanecke@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:35 -0700
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 08:20 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <dmpt1sFeavaU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #24351 |
martins.jtaz@gmail.com wrote: Limestone is used because it is a convenient source of calcium carbonate available in large quantities through rock quarrying. It is not an essential source, for roman cement or otherwise. But you were the one who was bringing Romans, picks and shovels "rock quarrying" into the cement discussion. Not chem labs. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | martins.jtaz@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 07:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b1eefe7a-316c-4a21-b7ca-048c3b375a94@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24352 |
Greg, You are taking things out of context. Bringing the romans into the discussion concerned the fabrication of the cement once the basic compounds had been secured. However, I apparently did miss the step of kiln heating, so you need a heat source that can be supplied easily by a solar furnace concentrating sunlight with reflectors. The point was that the romans did not have factories to do this work. Also, as I said, the chem lab is an option, but calium carbonate is also abundantly available in naturally formed, non organic, mineral deposits. No chem lab needed in this case.
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 20:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d58390cb-1bc0-4b70-817a-e95e2eb4dccc@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24354 |
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 7:55:01 AM UTC-7, martin...@gmail.com wrote: > Greg, > You are taking things out of context. Bringing the romans into the > discussion concerned the fabrication of the cement once the basic > compounds had been secured. However, I apparently did miss the step > of kiln heating, Every time you do that, you realize... > so you need a heat source that can be supplied easily by a solar furnace > concentrating sunlight with reflectors. And somebody has to build that out of the disassembled Earth-Mars hauler AFTER disassembling it AND LANDING the hauler pieces. (Oh and BTW the Sun delivers 590 W/m^2 at the top of Mars' atmosphere http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19890018252.pdf giving ~100-300 at the surface) Unless you plan on landing the hauler in one piece? Good luck with that. Either that or fabricate your furnace out of Mars-derived materials, which means you need something more sophisticated than a hammer, an anvil and a Mighty Oak Tree. There have been many SF tales about colonization, and usually they mention "you need the tools to make the tools to make the machine that makes X", for values of X = anything you didn't bring with you. You can (theoretically) 3D print just about anything but we don't have a lot of practice making batteries, motors, microprocessors, or sides of lamb that way just yet. (What we really need is a "3D eraser" that can take any kind of rock and split it into its component elements or compounds- IOW reduce rocks to printer feedstock.) > The point was that the romans did not have factories to do this work. Depends on what you mean by "factory". They didn't organize that kind of enterprise quite the way we do today so likely had nothing we'd recognize as a privately-held Physical Plant dedicated solely to making concrete, but the production chain was the same, just more spread out. > Also, as I said, the chem lab is an option, but calium carbonate is also > abundantly available in naturally formed, non organic, mineral deposits. > No chem lab needed in this case. A concrete plant *is* a chem lab. I don't think a Mars concrete plant need necessarily look like one on Earth, though. Now, about that "make it out of the spaceship parts" idea- Landing large, heavy objects on Mars is more difficult than doing it on Earth: http://www.universetoday.com/7024/the-mars-landing-approach-getting-large-payloads-to-the-surface-of-the-red-planet/ The big problem is Mars' is in between Earth and the Moon, parameter-wise. its atmosphere is 1/100th the density of Earth's, and its gravity is twice the Moon's. You can't use aerodynamics to get all the way to the surface and you can't take enough fuel to do an Apollo. Basically, a Space Shuttle-sized lander would need a 100 meter parachute, something we don't know how to handle. That's assuming you used a discardable heat shield to get below the speed of sound so that you *can* open your chute, and the parachute would only get it near enough to fall to the surface catastrophically- it would need landing jets (and a shitload of fuel) to land softly enough not to destroy itself and injure/kill the crew. All of this happens in ninety seconds, from deorbit burn to landing. Anything larger/heavier WILL make a crater. So, how about making the Earth-Mars hauler not the way Chesley Bonestell and NASA portray such things, but instead a stack or cluster of linked Space Shuttle-sized landers interspersed with fuel/consumables tankage? Upon arrival in Mars orbit they disconnect and land independently near enough together to walk from one to the next in less than an hour. The crewed ones would have their own own SNAP-on-steroids power supplies, life support and quarters, but cargo landers would carry only 3D printer kits (printers that can make parts for larger printers, etc.), garden soil necessities (some sort of CHON concentrate mulch substitute), seeds, lights, yada yada and are landed robotically. The tankage is the same shape but larger (since they're hollow and empty). After everything's down, you take the wings off of all of the landers like the hoops of a Conestoga and make stuff out of them leaving the habitable parts of the airframes standing on the landing gear, which is the first thing I'd reinforce and anchor. Then I'd send out expeditions to recover all of those heat shields and parachutes for re-use. The only reasonable alternative for getting lots of stuff down safely I've seen so far is a Beanstalk, but we don't have a lot of experience with those, either. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 12:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b69b1475-23dc-4272-9c66-32b2e07fd83a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24383 |
Hi Mark, The reference you use for solar irradiance is outdated. It uses an indirect measurement using imaging techniques provided by Viking, from the surface. Such indirect methods are prone to error. The reference I used was based directly on empirical data taken directly from the Spirit's solar array. It was determined that the atmosphere produces virtually zero reduction of the solar flux. While direct solar irradiance at surface was in excess of 480, scattered atmospheric irradiance returned in excess of 105. Interestingly the combined noon average was in excess of 590. Being that this 'average' measurement is above the average cited for irradiance above the atmosphere, I must assume that the data was collected when the absolute solar irradiance was above average levels.
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| From | Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 12:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6e1c6817-4949-43e3-bb64-7bedfa274153@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24383 |
Hey Mark, Actually, if I recall correctly, I suggested shovels and aluminum foil for the reflectors, although it would probably be easiest to use canibalised support struts to hold the secondary reflectors that point all that light into the ground. The kiln itself might very well be a simple hole in the ground that you pour the mix into, or it might be one of those items that you decide to pack with you... It does not need to be very large. As for the factories, I got the impression that Jim has been envisioning the need for the colossal structures that we are used to for inducstrial capacity operations. I refer to the smaller versions historically in use up to the 18 th century as 'shops'. There were very few disciplines that required more than a good sized living room area to perform all their varied operations... even the largest were typically the size of a small barn.
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| From | Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 03:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eec75c4b-55ec-445e-8085-affa520ae979@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24383 |
Hi Mark, Yes, getting heavy loads to the surface of Mars will be extremely difficult, and problems will have to be worked out. One option that has not been discussed is using automated rovers to prepare a kind of landing strip. Essentially, this means scraping the surface until you have a realtively flat field with a dusty terrain that would support the use of landing skids. Combine this with not a simple parachute but an inflatable wing... little more than a slightly inflatable parafoil that uses a little bit of helium to spread out the 'wing'. This can be erected outside the atmosphere. During the entirety of reentry, the system will help slow down the craft, but the angle of attack can be manipulated, allowing airflow stress to be reduced, and conveting airspeed to lift. To further reduce airspeed, an exterior shell can be conveted to a type of airbreak, producing a much larger aerodynamic cross section, more robust than a simple chute. In any case, much of the trouble with the current approach is the assumption that you need to bring lateral speed down to zero at the same time you bring vertical speed to zero. However, this is not necessarily the case. Incidentally, a classical flying saucer shape would be better for landing applications than a cone. This would allow better horizontal control as well, allowing for consideable course correction without having to turn the ship sideways. Still, it would probably be better to land a larger numbe of smaller modules. There is no real reason why you would need tons of structure to land people. Hell, you could probably just let the people parachute down with a parasail that incorporates an inflatable rim ( a small amount of gas woul quickly inflate the chute, instead of relying on air pressure).
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| From | martins.jtaz@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 08:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <db1322ea-07da-4912-8f40-69246b724491@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24296 |
Jim, I think I have pointed out several times the resources available both on the moon and on Mars. The compositional breakdown is easily available through many sources on internet. Even the bottleneck elements are present, although they are quite rare. Some resources that I did not mention include real estate, strategic placement for launching further exploration and colonisational efforts, and abstract information. I expect to discuss this in a ittle more detail later. There are no forests, no... Those will have to be planted once the soil is conditioned. We will need to bring a starter soil sample of rich loam from Earth, yes, but once we have that, there is sufficient supply of even the bottleneck elements to support modest growth once we start mining. Yes, it is rare, but it is still there. Even without, recycling would allow for a stable population. Limestone is organically created, but for the purposes of making cement, limestone is nothing more than a source of calcium. Yes, there is an abundant supply of calcium on Mars... And on the moon it is found in higher concentrations than even on Earth, so making cement is not going to be any problem. Transport will be one of the first things established, other than an initial source of shelter. There is sufficient solar energy to supply all our needs. More about that later. As for refinery power, again, there will be sufficient sunlight. However, it might be easiest to start off with a nuclear reactor to supply energy while plant production is underway. This would actually not be very difficult to arrange, since the engines used for transportation to Mars will likely rely on nuclear fission anyway. How big will these ractors be? The reactors themselves would probably fit into your bedroom, and would supply approximately 40 to 100 MWe. The machinery necessary to convert that to electrical power would probably take up the living room. The cooling quipment will be considerably larger, but you take all that with you on the flights anyway. All this you take with you just to get you there... You might as well make use of it once the transport mission is done. For a colony, all the personnel are going to stay there. It is reasonable that at least a few of the transports will as well, even if most return to Earth for the next load of colonists. More on that later. As I recall, there is recently confirmed water ice in the polar regions of both the moon and Mars. This means there is hydrogen available. There is also an overabundance of oxygen, mostly in the form of oxides, and there is carbon (a principle component of the martian atmosphere). This means you have everything you need to produce methane. It also ans that you have everything you need to produce plastics, although you still currently get a better quality of plastics from biological sources. Once you get your crops started, though, you now have a biological source for plastics... You don't need petroleum. Of course, making plastics reduces the available supply of these vital and admittedly rare resources, so you will probably want to opt for other materials... which are readilly available for just about any need. Plastics are convenient, but not essential for any product currently produced. Your sources of martian solar irradiance are incorrect... unless if you are averaging in nightime hours. The solar flux measured by the Spirit averaged a daily minimum of 170 W/m squared, and an average noon maximum of 596 W/m squared. This is ACTUAL surface data, including haze effects. Overall average surface irradiance was 588 W/m squared. This is actually almost half the average surface flux for Earth... I cited one quarter previously, but this was apparently orbital flux. So, no, you don't need kms of solar panels. As for the panels themselves, setting aside that once operations are fully underway, it will not be difficult to produce all the solar panels you need from indigenous sources, an initial supply from Earth will probably be applied to virtually every piece of equipment you bring. Reasonably lightweight solar cells are actually rather common. But you don't even need solar electric power in the beginning. For mining operations, most of that electricity would have to be converted back to heat anyway. All you need is a good supply of solar reflectors to concentrate the flux toward a solar furnace. This can be done effectively with a manually sculpted surface support (ground shaped to need with the help of a shovel), and some rolls of aluminum foil. Of course, there s always that collection of reactors that you took out of your spacecraft, and you could save time and effort by cannibalising whatever parts of the spaceframe are left after making your intial temporary shelter. BTW: you can dig out a fair number of shelters with a simple hand shovel. Some heavier equipment might be kept in reserve for when you run into hard rock. The first shelters will be dug out, and covered with scavenged sheets of skin from your spacecraft... The bits from your propellant tank that you were wise enough not to throw away just because it was spent. The finances of establishing a colony will probably largely be supplied by those who are giving everything they have on Earth to go live there, wherever 'there' is. There will probably be some contribution made by scientific organisations interested in all the research data that can be more efficiently acquired by humans on sight. There will also likely be sponsorship by a number of organistations, for various reasons. Governments might cover some of the costs, just so they can tain the right to send some people to represent their interests, especially if it would help them gain leverage or some strategic advantage over other countries. There is something that you haven't considered... Or, at least, have not mentioned. A colony requires people. At least hundreds of people, and more likely thousands. On the one hand, sending up all these people will give the opportunity to send up lots of tools and heavier equipment as well. All the Earth movers, solar power transports, 3D printers and other machining tools, all the solar panels... Even enough food to last for the first couple years while getting established. Of course, there will also be unmanned launches to help set some things up before arrival... Oxygen production, fuel production, power stations, etc. On the other hand, yes, each flight will be a considerable expense. So, WHY will we do this? Despite what you say, this WILL happen, eventually, Star Trek tech or no. It will happen because the are thos of us who wish to learn new things. To lern new things, we have to go to new places, or séd probes to new places. The resources in space will not be valuable on Earth for a very long time, hopefully, but they WILL be valuable to those who are sending ships and people further ut into space. It will be cheaper to build our spaceships and observation platforms on the moon or Mars than it will be to lift all the supplies from Earth. Industries building rockets to ferry people from the Earth to the moon and back would more cheaply be built on the moon. Earth mining and production damages the environment on Earth, and endangers species. Those who want to protect the environment will contribute to save animal and plant species from environmental rape. Nuclear reactors and RTGs can be built, supplied, and operated in space, so there is no risk of radiological material spreading through our own atmosphere if a rocket explodes during launch. Populating the solar system will reduce the overpopulation on Earth. More land on Earth can be reclaimed for leisure activities. The infrastructures required for establishing cultures will strengthen the economy of those who remain on Earth, and will continue to serve those on Earth. Advances in tech, Earth based applications, more jobs, more job vacancies when colonists depart, increased knowledge in how to achieve things, increased pride in being able to achieve these things... The list goes on and on. It is not only a question of expense. It is a question of value... And value is much more than how much gold you can put in your pocket.
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| From | Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne61cq$gd2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #24296 |
For your reference, records indicate that jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to > a discussion of colonies. And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It’s always fun to see people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) > So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *don’t yet* know about. The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. > There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? > I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement > highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't > you? You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on limestone, don’t you? [blathering about industrial mining snipped] > something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings > required to survive and do anything. If that’s how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly haven’t thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. > You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of > them come from petroleum, so no plastics. You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on plastics, don’t you? > You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable. I don’t miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not* require magical technology if you don’t make the assumption that you’re going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape. -- "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain." River Tam, Trash, Firefly
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <bdritc-31s.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24322 |
In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > For your reference, records indicate that > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to >> a discussion of colonies. > > And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It’s always fun to see > people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) > >> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? > > All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about. > The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- > centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. I use economic thinking. It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs far more to extract than the gold is worth. >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. > > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air anywhere else than Earth? > >> I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement >> highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't >> you? > > You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on > limestone, dont you? Yep, but modern civilizations are built with concrete and steel; before that it was wood. > [blathering about industrial mining snipped] > >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings >> required to survive and do anything. > > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7? >> You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of >> them come from petroleum, so no plastics. > > You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on > plastics, dont you? Not modern ones with the advanced technology required to survive off the Earth. > >> You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable. > > I dont miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned > the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not* > require magical technology if you dont make the assumption that you’re > going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape. > I have been talking about colonies, i.e. families and kids. A research station requires very little in terms of infrastructure, just constant resupply. It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently move to one. It is my opinion that off Earth research stations are of limited value and the cost and rewards of doing them should be balanced against sending swarms of robots throughout the solar system. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3jjdgb5vd9t9biee6hppr6r5knli3ia074@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #24332 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to
>>> a discussion of colonies.
>>
>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It’s always fun to see
>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-)
>>
>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars?
>>
>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about.
>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth-
>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available.
>
>I use economic thinking.
>
No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They
should take it back.
>
>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>
Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets
you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'?
You don't know the meaning of the phrase!
>>> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air.
>>
>> You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that?
>
>When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and
>air anywhere else than Earth?
>
They've announced there's free flowing water on Mars, water vapour in
the atmosphere, underground ices. You insist there aren't.
>>
>>> I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement
>>> highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't
>>> you?
>>
>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on
>> limestone, dont you?
>
>Yep, but modern civilizations are built with concrete and steel; before
>that it was wood.
>
Haven't heard of 'rocks', 'caves', and 'holes' in your neck of the
woods?
>> [blathering about industrial mining snipped]
>>
>>> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings
>>> required to survive and do anything.
>>
>> If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly
>> havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men.
>
>So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized
>building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7?
>
So you think you can't survive on the Moon with Pittsburgh?
>>> You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of
>>> them come from petroleum, so no plastics.
>>
>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on
>> plastics, dont you?
>
>Not modern ones with the advanced technology required to survive off
>the Earth.
>
Gee, something hasn't been done yet, so it is forever impossible. Back
to your cave, Chimp.
>>
>>> You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable.
>>
>> I dont miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned
>> the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not*
>> require magical technology if you dont make the assumption that you’re
>> going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape.
>>
>
>I have been talking about colonies, i.e. families and kids.
>
>A research station requires very little in terms of infrastructure, just
>constant resupply.
>
Wrong. You see, this is the kind of error you make when you misapply
'economic thinking' from ignorance. First example, it's cheaper to
ship an automated rocket fuel factory to Mars to make fuel for the
return trip than it is to ship the fuel.
You really ought to read some of those papers I keep pointing you to.
It would keep you from sounding so stupidly ignorant.
>
>It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much
>for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently
>move to one.
>
>It is my opinion that off Earth research stations are of limited value
>and the cost and rewards of doing them should be balanced against sending
>swarms of robots throughout the solar system.
>
If people aren't going, there's no point to "swarms of robots" so the
cost there is zero.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <4e4jtc-41t.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24338 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>> For your reference, records indicate that >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to >>>> a discussion of colonies. >>> >>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see >>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) >>> >>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? >>> >>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about. >>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- >>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. >> >>I use economic thinking. >> > > No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They > should take it back. > >> >>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs >>far more to extract than the gold is worth. >> > > Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets > you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'? > You don't know the meaning of the phrase! Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value. >>>> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. >>> >>> You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? >> >>When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and >>air anywhere else than Earth? >> > > They've announced there's free flowing water on Mars, water vapour in > the atmosphere, underground ices. You insist there aren't. That is not the same thing as forests, lakes and rivers, i.e. things you can stick a bucket in and fill it with drinkable water. >>>> I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement >>>> highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't >>>> you? >>> >>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on >>> limestone, dont you? >> >>Yep, but modern civilizations are built with concrete and steel; before >>that it was wood. >> > > Haven't heard of 'rocks', 'caves', and 'holes' in your neck of the > woods? Sure but on Earth they don't need airlocks. >>> [blathering about industrial mining snipped] >>> >>>> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings >>>> required to survive and do anything. >>> >>> If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly >>> havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. >> >>So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized >>building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7? >> > > So you think you can't survive on the Moon with Pittsburgh? There go those voices in your head again. You really should see someone about that. >>>> You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of >>>> them come from petroleum, so no plastics. >>> >>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on >>> plastics, dont you? >> >>Not modern ones with the advanced technology required to survive off >>the Earth. >> > > Gee, something hasn't been done yet, so it is forever impossible. Back > to your cave, Chimp. There go those voices in your head again. You really should see someone about that. >>> >>>> You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable. >>> >>> I dont miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned >>> the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not* >>> require magical technology if you dont make the assumption that you?re >>> going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape. >>> >> >>I have been talking about colonies, i.e. families and kids. >> >>A research station requires very little in terms of infrastructure, just >>constant resupply. >> > > Wrong. You see, this is the kind of error you make when you misapply > 'economic thinking' from ignorance. First example, it's cheaper to > ship an automated rocket fuel factory to Mars to make fuel for the > return trip than it is to ship the fuel. Which has nothing to do with supplying those kids with diapers and baby bottles. > You really ought to read some of those papers I keep pointing you to. > It would keep you from sounding so stupidly ignorant. > >> >>It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much >>for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently >>move to one. >> >>It is my opinion that off Earth research stations are of limited value >>and the cost and rewards of doing them should be balanced against sending >>swarms of robots throughout the solar system. >> > > If people aren't going, there's no point to "swarms of robots" so the > cost there is zero. The point to swarms of robots is scientific research. Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker in a Martian bar just like in the movies. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7qegbdl995jc6lta3tia1ut8sf2hnvbh2@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #24340 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to
>>>>> a discussion of colonies.
>>>>
>>>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see
>>>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-)
>>>>
>>>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars?
>>>>
>>>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about.
>>>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth-
>>>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available.
>>>
>>>I use economic thinking.
>>>
>>
>> No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They
>> should take it back.
>>
>>>
>>>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>>>far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets
>> you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'?
>> You don't know the meaning of the phrase!
>
>Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value.
>
OK, I'll give you that one (at current prices).
>>>>> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that?
>>>
>>>When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and
>>>air anywhere else than Earth?
>>>
>>
>> They've announced there's free flowing water on Mars, water vapour in
>> the atmosphere, underground ices. You insist there aren't.
>
>That is not the same thing as forests, lakes and rivers, i.e. things
>you can stick a bucket in and fill it with drinkable water.
>
Who said anything about "forests, lakes and rivers"? You said
(elsewhere) that subsurface ices were unproven and only MIGHT exist.
>>>>> I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement
>>>>> highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't
>>>>> you?
>>>>
>>>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on
>>>> limestone, dont you?
>>>
>>>Yep, but modern civilizations are built with concrete and steel; before
>>>that it was wood.
>>>
>>
>> Haven't heard of 'rocks', 'caves', and 'holes' in your neck of the
>> woods?
>
>Sure but on Earth they don't need airlocks.
>
So what?
>>>> [blathering about industrial mining snipped]
>>>>
>>>>> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings
>>>>> required to survive and do anything.
>>>>
>>>> If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly
>>>> havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men.
>>>
>>>So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized
>>>building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7?
>>>
>>
>> So you think you can't survive on the Moon with Pittsburgh?
>
>There go those voices in your head again. You really should see
>someone about that.
>
Yet elsewhere you've said it "will take more than Pittsburgh". Do you
always lie, or is this a special topic for you?
[My experience with you is that you always lie.]
>>>>> You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of
>>>>> them come from petroleum, so no plastics.
>>>>
>>>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on
>>>> plastics, dont you?
>>>
>>>Not modern ones with the advanced technology required to survive off
>>>the Earth.
>>>
>>
>> Gee, something hasn't been done yet, so it is forever impossible. Back
>> to your cave, Chimp.
>
>There go those voices in your head again. You really should see
>someone about that.
>
There you go shucking and jiving again. You really should see someone
about that.
>>>>
>>>>> You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable.
>>>>
>>>> I dont miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned
>>>> the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not*
>>>> require magical technology if you dont make the assumption that you?re
>>>> going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have been talking about colonies, i.e. families and kids.
>>>
>>>A research station requires very little in terms of infrastructure, just
>>>constant resupply.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. You see, this is the kind of error you make when you misapply
>> 'economic thinking' from ignorance. First example, it's cheaper to
>> ship an automated rocket fuel factory to Mars to make fuel for the
>> return trip than it is to ship the fuel.
>
>Which has nothing to do with supplying those kids with diapers and
>baby bottles.
>
Colonies on Earth in the 15th Century didn't provide diapers and baby
bottles.
>> You really ought to read some of those papers I keep pointing you to.
>> It would keep you from sounding so stupidly ignorant.
>>
>>>
>>>It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much
>>>for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently
>>>move to one.
>>>
>>>It is my opinion that off Earth research stations are of limited value
>>>and the cost and rewards of doing them should be balanced against sending
>>>swarms of robots throughout the solar system.
>>>
>>
>> If people aren't going, there's no point to "swarms of robots" so the
>> cost there is zero.
>
>The point to swarms of robots is scientific research.
>
So no point unless people are going.
>
>Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker
>in a Martian bar just like in the movies.
>
Your point seems to be that your delusions about people are 'true'.
They aren't. You're just stupid.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <s5bltc-637.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24347 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to >>>>>> a discussion of colonies. >>>>> >>>>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see >>>>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) >>>>> >>>>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? >>>>> >>>>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about. >>>>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- >>>>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. >>>> >>>>I use economic thinking. >>>> >>> >>> No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They >>> should take it back. >>> >>>> >>>>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs >>>>far more to extract than the gold is worth. >>>> >>> >>> Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets >>> you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'? >>> You don't know the meaning of the phrase! >> >>Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value. >> > > OK, I'll give you that one (at current prices). And if you do find something of great value off planet, the increased supply will depress the market so that is no magic bullet either. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9h4ggbtjnt9nghucnnnfdn1obiguq6f0o1@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #24364 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to
>>>>>>> a discussion of colonies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see
>>>>>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about.
>>>>>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth-
>>>>>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available.
>>>>>
>>>>>I use economic thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They
>>>> should take it back.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>>>>>far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets
>>>> you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'?
>>>> You don't know the meaning of the phrase!
>>>
>>>Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value.
>>>
>>
>> OK, I'll give you that one (at current prices).
>>
>
>And if you do find something of great value off planet, the increased
>supply will depress the market so that is no magic bullet either.
>
So the only source of ROI so far as you're concerned is raw materials?
That's just a little stupid, Chimp.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <4fqltc-fb8.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24371 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to >>>>>>>> a discussion of colonies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see >>>>>>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about. >>>>>>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- >>>>>>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. >>>>>> >>>>>>I use economic thinking. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They >>>>> should take it back. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs >>>>>>far more to extract than the gold is worth. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets >>>>> you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'? >>>>> You don't know the meaning of the phrase! >>>> >>>>Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value. >>>> >>> >>> OK, I'll give you that one (at current prices). >>> >> >>And if you do find something of great value off planet, the increased >>supply will depress the market so that is no magic bullet either. >> > > So the only source of ROI so far as you're concerned is raw materials? > That's just a little stupid, Chimp. Nope, there is also raw stock and finished goods but I doubt Mars could compete with China. I know for sure they won't be able to compete with Japan on plywood. Martian mink fur? Martian saffron? Martian woven rugs? Don't forget shipping costs. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 20:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <76b85e5c-8a9c-4fd7-9d31-deeb8a47935c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #24364 |
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 12:01:09 PM UTC-7, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > >>Nope, the extraction cost [of gold from seawater] exceeds the value. > >> > > > > OK, I'll give you that one (at current prices). > > And if you do find something of great value off planet, the increased > supply will depress the market so that is no magic bullet either. Not necessarily. A few dozen cubic meters of refined gold FOB Earth surface would kill the jewelry market for it worldwide but would boost the hell out of electronics, catalytic processes, certain metallurgical applications that would become very popular, and so on. The net effect would be to boost the overall economy at the expense of a very small part of it. Other examples exist, like say platinum group metals. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <0147cfc3ba5568d-81b87@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #24340 |
On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:43:48PM -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > > >>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > >>> For your reference, records indicate that > >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>> > >>>> As Antarctica has never had any colonies, Antarctica is irrelevant to > >>>> a discussion of colonies. > >>> > >>> And yet *you* were the one who brought it up. It?s always fun to see > >>> people attacking their own straw man arguments! :-) > >>> > >>>> So just what are the natural resources available on Mars? > >>> > >>> All the ones we know about, and all the ones we *dont yet* know about. > >>> The main problem with your thinking is that you seem to use Earth- > >>> centric thinking when evaluating the resources that are available. > >> > >>I use economic thinking. > >> > > > > No, you don't. Where did you get your degree in economics. They > > should take it back. > > > >> > >>It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs > >>far more to extract than the gold is worth. > >> > > > > Wrong. It's just that the same amount of money applied elsewhere gets > > you more gold. And you claim to be engaging in 'economic thinking'? > > You don't know the meaning of the phrase! > > Nope, the extraction cost exceeds the value. > > >>>> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. > >>> > >>> You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? > >> > >>When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and > >>air anywhere else than Earth? > >> > > > > They've announced there's free flowing water on Mars, water vapour in > > the atmosphere, underground ices. You insist there aren't. > > That is not the same thing as forests, lakes and rivers, i.e. things > you can stick a bucket in and fill it with drinkable water. > > >>>> I would say the odds of finding limestone deposits to make cement > >>>> highly unlikely. You do know limestone is organically created, don't > >>>> you? > >>> > >>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on > >>> limestone, dont you? > >> > >>Yep, but modern civilizations are built with concrete and steel; before > >>that it was wood. > >> > > > > Haven't heard of 'rocks', 'caves', and 'holes' in your neck of the > > woods? > > Sure but on Earth they don't need airlocks. > > >>> [blathering about industrial mining snipped] > >>> > >>>> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings > >>>> required to survive and do anything. > >>> > >>> If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly > >>> havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. > >> > >>So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized > >>building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7? > >> > > > > So you think you can't survive on the Moon with Pittsburgh? > > There go those voices in your head again. You really should see > someone about that. > > >>>> You will be lacking just about all usefull chemicals as most of > >>>> them come from petroleum, so no plastics. > >>> > >>> You do know that civilizations have been built without relying on > >>> plastics, dont you? > >> > >>Not modern ones with the advanced technology required to survive off > >>the Earth. > >> > > > > Gee, something hasn't been done yet, so it is forever impossible. Back > > to your cave, Chimp. > > There go those voices in your head again. You really should see > someone about that. > > >>> > >>>> You miss the point, it would take Star Trek technology to make it affordable. > >>> > >>> I dont miss that point at all. I *made* that point when I questioned > >>> the proposed budget. But I am also making the point that it does *not* > >>> require magical technology if you dont make the assumption that you?re > >>> going to live an Earth-styled life on such an inhospitable landscape. > >>> > >> > >>I have been talking about colonies, i.e. families and kids. > >> > >>A research station requires very little in terms of infrastructure, just > >>constant resupply. > >> > > > > Wrong. You see, this is the kind of error you make when you misapply > > 'economic thinking' from ignorance. First example, it's cheaper to > > ship an automated rocket fuel factory to Mars to make fuel for the > > return trip than it is to ship the fuel. > > Which has nothing to do with supplying those kids with diapers and > baby bottles. > > > You really ought to read some of those papers I keep pointing you to. > > It would keep you from sounding so stupidly ignorant. > > > >> > >>It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much > >>for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently > >>move to one. > >> > >>It is my opinion that off Earth research stations are of limited value > >>and the cost and rewards of doing them should be balanced against sending > >>swarms of robots throughout the solar system. > >> > > > > If people aren't going, there's no point to "swarms of robots" so the > > cost there is zero. > > The point to swarms of robots is scientific research. > > Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker > in a Martian bar just like in the movies. Fred is more of a "what happens on Mars, stays on Mars" sort of fella. He would love an environment free from the all the stupid rules he has to follow. No lawyers, no courts, no oversight, just a wide-open horizon of possibilities as far as he can see. -- These retarded Potemkin Village newsgroups with their population of corrupt police-state collaborators and useful idiots loudly calls for a sharp neo-stalinist pogrom to rid the world of all those who knowingly participate and as well to deal with those who are ultimately responsible for creating it.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <osjmtc-mua.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24391 |
In sci.physics Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:43:48PM -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker >> in a Martian bar just like in the movies. > > Fred is more of a "what happens on Mars, stays on Mars" sort of fella. > He would love an environment free from the all the stupid rules he has > to follow. No lawyers, no courts, no oversight, just a wide-open > horizon of possibilities as far as he can see. In a setting where a multitude of high tech systems needs to be constantly monitored and maintained to survive more than a few minutes, I think the societal structure would be more like a miltary post than a hippy love in. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6a6igb91mre70lp1to9u8lkianm8igq6ve@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #24399 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:43:48PM -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > > >>> Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker >>> in a Martian bar just like in the movies. >> >> Fred is more of a "what happens on Mars, stays on Mars" sort of fella. >> He would love an environment free from the all the stupid rules he has >> to follow. No lawyers, no courts, no oversight, just a wide-open >> horizon of possibilities as far as he can see. > >In a setting where a multitude of high tech systems needs to be constantly >monitored and maintained to survive more than a few minutes, I think the >societal structure would be more like a miltary post than a hippy love in. > So you think our current society, where a multitude of high tech systems needs to be constantly monitored and maintained to survive more than a few minutes, has a societal structure like a military post? Wow. Just wow. It's funny that a known lunatic like Uncle Steve (and I mean that just like it sounds; he actually is mentally ill) spews some delusion and you pick right up on it and act like it's fact, but when confronted with facts you insist they're not true. Trudge on back to your cave, Chimp... -- You are What you do When it counts.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5ovntc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #24407 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:43:48PM -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >> >>>> Your point seems to be you want to cozy up to a three titted hooker >>>> in a Martian bar just like in the movies. >>> >>> Fred is more of a "what happens on Mars, stays on Mars" sort of fella. >>> He would love an environment free from the all the stupid rules he has >>> to follow. No lawyers, no courts, no oversight, just a wide-open >>> horizon of possibilities as far as he can see. >> >>In a setting where a multitude of high tech systems needs to be constantly >>monitored and maintained to survive more than a few minutes, I think the >>societal structure would be more like a miltary post than a hippy love in. >> > > So you think our current society, where a multitude of high tech > systems needs to be constantly monitored and maintained to survive > more than a few minutes, has a societal structure like a military > post? Wow. Just wow. Last I looked there was a more than adequate supply of air on Earth, space cadet. Or are you one of those people that can't survive more than a few minutes without their iPhone? > It's funny that a known lunatic like Uncle Steve (and I mean that just > like it sounds; he actually is mentally ill) spews some delusion and > you pick right up on it and act like it's fact, but when confronted > with facts you insist they're not true. I never heard of Uncle Steve unless you are talking about the character Steve Martin plays in his comedy act. > Trudge on back to your cave, Chimp... Again, hangar, no cave space cadet. -- Jim Pennino
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