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Flawed heros

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  Flawed heros Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2025-08-08 22:11 -0400
    Re: Flawed heros "Mickmane" <ATH@kruemel.org> - 2025-08-09 23:04 +0200
      Re: Flawed heros djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2025-08-09 22:10 +0000
        Re: Flawed heros "Mickmane" <ATH@kruemel.org> - 2025-08-10 09:38 +0200
          Re: Flawed heros djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2025-08-10 19:06 +0000
            Re: Flawed heros "Mickmane" <ATH@kruemel.org> - 2025-08-10 22:35 +0200

#42662 — Flawed heros

I'm catching up on Partricia's blog, and have gotten to

https://pcwrede.com/pcw-wp/heroes-protagonists-and-viewpoint-characters-but-mostly-heroes/

The "make your character complex by sprinkling flaws on like
parsley" school of thought was mentioned, but barely thought
worthy of discussion.

A complex character will have flaws, but adding flaws won't
make him complex.  

It's rather like those silly signs in restrooms telling
children to sing "happy birthday" while washing their hands.
Getting your hangs clean takes time, but taking time while
holding your hands under the water won't get them clean.


A parsley flaw can be comedic, but the only example I can
think of is Indiana Jones and his snakes.

-- 
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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#42663

On 09.08.25, Joy Beeson  <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

Oh, activity here!

I've been wondering about asking whether anyone's still here, because I  
would like to talk about one of my stories again. Been rereading and  
adding stuff - except I now have most read aloud by Microsoft Edge "Eric  
Online Natural", so much nicer than having to read it myself. While  
writing of course I still reread my own words. :)

> I'm catching up on Partricia's blog, and have gotten to

> https://pcwrede.com/pcw-wp/heroes-protagonists-and-viewpoint-characters-but-mostly-heroes/

Reading that, too, some thoughts...

Seems I don't have protagonists at all, just viewpoint characters (tight  
third), some main characters, others not so main. (Certainly no heroes!)

I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral  
code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just hardware,  
and upbringing adds the software.

But some non-human species (thinking of one I made up here, of course)  
can all be born with the same basic rules of what's right, and what  
things no one would ever think of doing.

> The "make your character complex by sprinkling flaws on like
> parsley" school of thought was mentioned, but barely thought
> worthy of discussion.

> A complex character will have flaws, but adding flaws won't
> make him complex.

> It's rather like those silly signs in restrooms telling
> children to sing "happy birthday" while washing their hands.
> Getting your hangs clean takes time, but taking time while
> holding your hands under the water won't get them clean.

Seems we agree completely!

It's just that my characters come as they are written, and I don't like  
the word 'flaw'. Would you call someone who's good at playing the  
guitar, but terrible at hammering a nail into the wall "flawed"?  
Characters are good at some things, and not so good at others, and the  
decent characters know what they're not good at, and try their best  
anyway. They _think_.

Only trauma is an excuse for temporarily not thinking straight, and not  
even trying to. (In my never humble opinion.)

I don't think most of the traits listed as possible flaws are flaws at  
all, they are character traits. All part of what gives a character,  
well, _character_ (as opposed to being cardboard).

(I could ramble on about insecurity, versus just finding themselves in a  
strange situation and trying to figure out how to act now. The latter  
isn't insecurity.)

I think the only character I have who's lazy is one of my evil  
overlords. :)

> A parsley flaw can be comedic, but the only example I can
> think of is Indiana Jones and his snakes.

Hm, maybe it's not even parsley! :)

-- 

Mickmane - not new here, but using my online nickname now, rather than  
one you might remember.

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#42664

In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:
>On 09.08.25, Joy Beeson  <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral  
>code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just hardware,  
>and upbringing adds the software.

[Hal Heydt]
I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
aare also born with some firmware.  One could argue about the
degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
overridden--by accumulations of software.  (One also needs to be
careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)

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#42665

On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com  <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:

>> I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
>> code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just
>> hardware, and upbringing adds the software.

> [Hal Heydt]

Would be better if that were seen in the address/name.

> I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
> aare also born with some firmware.  One could argue about the
> degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
> overridden--by accumulations of software.  (One also needs to be
> careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)

That's what I call hardware.

Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU, 4MB  
to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had a 286  
board with 386 CPU. :) )

As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks  
where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).


-- 

Mickmane

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#42666

In article <H6c3l6vqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:
>On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com  <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <H6Z3hsIqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:
>
>>> I'd disagree on "nobody is born with a fundamentally good moral
>>> code...". Humans certainly are born as a blank slate with just
>>> hardware, and upbringing adds the software.
>
>> [Hal Heydt]
>
>Would be better if that were seen in the address/name.
>
>> I'd modify that slightly to claim that humans (and other animals)
>> aare also born with some firmware.  One could argue about the
>> degree to which the firmware can be modified--or just
>> overridden--by accumulations of software.  (One also needs to be
>> careful not to stretch the analogies too far...)
>
>That's what I call hardware.
>
>Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU, 4MB  
>to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had a 286  
>board with 386 CPU. :) )
>
>As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

[Hal Heydt]
A BIOS is firmware, but there are other forms of firmware. You've
limited your list to one particular line of processor chips.
There are, and have been many others.  One that is sold at a rate
many times the x86 chips these days are ARM processors.

>Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks  
>where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).

What you've listed are operating systems, and your list if far
from complete.  OSes are, indeed software, but so are
applications programs.

However, not all hardware requires an OS to operate.  There is,
for instance, a microcontroller (aka MCU) doesn't noramally run
with an OS at all.  You probably have a considerable number of
MCUs in your house.  Start with your washing machine and go on
from there. Pretty much anything you have that has a control
interface is likely to contain an MCU.  They're sold by the
billions every year.  (PC sales are on the order of 100 million
per year.  "Smart" phone and tablet--most using ARM chips--sales
are on the order of 1 billion per year.  MCUs...much more than
that.)

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#42667

On 10.08.25, djheydt@kithrup.com  <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <H6c3l6vqczB@ATH>, Mickmane <ATH@kruemel.org> wrote:

[Humans born as blank slate with just hardware, upbringing adds  
software]

>> Like you may have a 286, 386, or a 486 motherboard with fitting CPU,
>> 4MB to 16MB RAM, 5MB MFM harddrive or 800MB seagate,... (I once had
>> a 286 board with 386 CPU. :) )
>>
>> As far as firmware, at most I'd permit (in my analogy) bios.

> [Hal Heydt]

Put that into the address somewhere.

> A BIOS is firmware, but there are other forms of firmware. You've
> limited your list to one particular line of processor chips.
> There are, and have been many others.  One that is sold at a rate
> many times the x86 chips these days are ARM processors.

I didn't limit anything. It's examples.

>> Software is then, DOS, Linux, or DOS with windoze 3 (the poor folks
>> where the parents and environment are basically a handicap).

> What you've listed are operating systems, and your list if far
> from complete.  OSes are, indeed software, but so are
> applications programs.

And I forgot OS/2, too.

Doesn't matter. It's examples, not a complete list. Do you just want to  
argue?

So you don't like my analogy. For me it works.

-- 

Mickmane

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