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Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified Memory?

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  Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified  Memory? Yisheng Xie <xieyisheng1@huawei.com> - 2017-07-17 14:00 +0200
    Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified  Memory? Jean-Philippe Brucker <jean-philippe.brucker@arm.com> - 2017-07-17 14:50 +0200
    Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified  Memory? Jerome Glisse <j.glisse@gmail.com> - 2017-07-17 16:30 +0200
      Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified  Memory? Yisheng Xie <xieyisheng1@huawei.com> - 2017-07-18 02:20 +0200

#1688952 — Re: What differences and relations between SVM, HSA, HMM and Unified Memory?

Hi Jean-Philippe，

On 2017/6/12 19:37, Jean-Philippe Brucker wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On 10/06/17 05:06, Wuzongyong (Cordius Wu, Euler Dept) wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Could someone explain differences and relations between the SVM(Shared
>> Virtual Memory, by Intel), HSA(Heterogeneous System Architecture, by AMD),
>> HMM(Heterogeneous Memory Management, by Glisse) and UM(Unified Memory, by
>> NVIDIA) ? Are these in the substitutional relation?
>>
>> As I understand it, these aim to solve the same thing, sharing pointers
>> between CPU and GPU(implement with ATS/PASID/PRI/IOMMU support). So far,
>> SVM and HSA can only be used by integrated gpu. And, Intel declare that
>> the root ports doesn’t not have the required TLP prefix support, resulting
>>  that SVM can’t be used by discrete devices. So could someone tell me the
>> required TLP prefix means what specifically?>
>> With HMM, we can use allocator like malloc to manage host and device
>> memory. Does this mean that there is no need to use SVM and HSA with HMM,
>> or HMM is the basis of SVM and HAS to implement Fine-Grained system SVM
>> defined in the opencl spec?
> 
> I can't provide an exhaustive answer, but I have done some work on SVM.
> Take it with a grain of salt though, I am not an expert.
> 
> * HSA is an architecture that provides a common programming model for CPUs
> and accelerators (GPGPUs etc). It does have SVM requirement (I/O page
> faults, PASID and compatible address spaces), though it's only a small
> part of it.
> 
> * Similarly, OpenCL provides an API for dealing with accelerators. OpenCL
> 2.0 introduced the concept of Fine-Grained System SVM, which allows to
> pass userspace pointers to devices. It is just one flavor of SVM, they
> also have coarse-grained and non-system. But they might have coined the
> name, and I believe that in the context of Linux IOMMU, when we talk about
> "SVM" it is OpenCL's fine-grained system SVM.
> [...]
> 
> While SVM is only about virtual address space,
As you mentioned, SVM is only about virtual address space, I'd like to know how to
manage the physical address especially about device's RAM, before HMM?

When OpenCL alloc a SVM pointer like:
    void* p = clSVMAlloc (
        context, // an OpenCL context where this buffer is available
        CL_MEM_READ_WRITE | CL_MEM_SVM_FINE_GRAIN_BUFFER,
        size, // amount of memory to allocate (in bytes)
        0 // alignment in bytes (0 means default)
    );

where this RAM come from， device RAM or host RAM?

Thanks
Yisheng Xie

> HMM deals with physical
> storage. If I understand correctly, HMM allows to transparently use device
> RAM from userspace applications. So upon an I/O page fault, the mm
> subsystem will migrate data from system memory into device RAM. It would
> differ from "pure" SVM in that you would use different page directories on
> IOMMU and MMU sides, and synchronize them using MMU notifiers. But please
> don't take this at face value, I haven't had time to look into HMM yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jean
> 
> .
> 

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#1689000

On 17/07/17 12:57, Yisheng Xie wrote:
> Hi Jean-Philippe，
> 
> On 2017/6/12 19:37, Jean-Philippe Brucker wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On 10/06/17 05:06, Wuzongyong (Cordius Wu, Euler Dept) wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Could someone explain differences and relations between the SVM(Shared
>>> Virtual Memory, by Intel), HSA(Heterogeneous System Architecture, by AMD),
>>> HMM(Heterogeneous Memory Management, by Glisse) and UM(Unified Memory, by
>>> NVIDIA) ? Are these in the substitutional relation?
>>>
>>> As I understand it, these aim to solve the same thing, sharing pointers
>>> between CPU and GPU(implement with ATS/PASID/PRI/IOMMU support). So far,
>>> SVM and HSA can only be used by integrated gpu. And, Intel declare that
>>> the root ports doesn’t not have the required TLP prefix support, resulting
>>>  that SVM can’t be used by discrete devices. So could someone tell me the
>>> required TLP prefix means what specifically?>
>>> With HMM, we can use allocator like malloc to manage host and device
>>> memory. Does this mean that there is no need to use SVM and HSA with HMM,
>>> or HMM is the basis of SVM and HAS to implement Fine-Grained system SVM
>>> defined in the opencl spec?
>>
>> I can't provide an exhaustive answer, but I have done some work on SVM.
>> Take it with a grain of salt though, I am not an expert.
>>
>> * HSA is an architecture that provides a common programming model for CPUs
>> and accelerators (GPGPUs etc). It does have SVM requirement (I/O page
>> faults, PASID and compatible address spaces), though it's only a small
>> part of it.
>>
>> * Similarly, OpenCL provides an API for dealing with accelerators. OpenCL
>> 2.0 introduced the concept of Fine-Grained System SVM, which allows to
>> pass userspace pointers to devices. It is just one flavor of SVM, they
>> also have coarse-grained and non-system. But they might have coined the
>> name, and I believe that in the context of Linux IOMMU, when we talk about
>> "SVM" it is OpenCL's fine-grained system SVM.
>> [...]
>>
>> While SVM is only about virtual address space,
> As you mentioned, SVM is only about virtual address space, I'd like to know how to
> manage the physical address especially about device's RAM, before HMM?
> 
> When OpenCL alloc a SVM pointer like:
>     void* p = clSVMAlloc (
>         context, // an OpenCL context where this buffer is available
>         CL_MEM_READ_WRITE | CL_MEM_SVM_FINE_GRAIN_BUFFER,
>         size, // amount of memory to allocate (in bytes)
>         0 // alignment in bytes (0 means default)
>     );
> 
> where this RAM come from， device RAM or host RAM?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with OpenCL/GPU drivers. It is up to them to
decide where to allocate memory for clSVMAlloc. My SMMU work would deal
with fine-grained *system* SVM, the kind that can be obtained from malloc
and doesn't require a call to clSVMAlloc. Hopefully others on this list or
linux-mm might be able to help you.

Thanks,
Jean

> Thanks
> Yisheng Xie
> 
>> HMM deals with physical
>> storage. If I understand correctly, HMM allows to transparently use device
>> RAM from userspace applications. So upon an I/O page fault, the mm
>> subsystem will migrate data from system memory into device RAM. It would
>> differ from "pure" SVM in that you would use different page directories on
>> IOMMU and MMU sides, and synchronize them using MMU notifiers. But please
>> don't take this at face value, I haven't had time to look into HMM yet.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jean
>>
>> .
>>
> 

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#1689107

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 07:57:23PM +0800, Yisheng Xie wrote:
> Hi Jean-Philippe，
> 
> On 2017/6/12 19:37, Jean-Philippe Brucker wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > On 10/06/17 05:06, Wuzongyong (Cordius Wu, Euler Dept) wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Could someone explain differences and relations between the SVM(Shared
> >> Virtual Memory, by Intel), HSA(Heterogeneous System Architecture, by AMD),
> >> HMM(Heterogeneous Memory Management, by Glisse) and UM(Unified Memory, by
> >> NVIDIA) ? Are these in the substitutional relation?
> >>
> >> As I understand it, these aim to solve the same thing, sharing pointers
> >> between CPU and GPU(implement with ATS/PASID/PRI/IOMMU support). So far,
> >> SVM and HSA can only be used by integrated gpu. And, Intel declare that
> >> the root ports doesn’t not have the required TLP prefix support, resulting
> >>  that SVM can’t be used by discrete devices. So could someone tell me the
> >> required TLP prefix means what specifically?>
> >> With HMM, we can use allocator like malloc to manage host and device
> >> memory. Does this mean that there is no need to use SVM and HSA with HMM,
> >> or HMM is the basis of SVM and HAS to implement Fine-Grained system SVM
> >> defined in the opencl spec?
> > 
> > I can't provide an exhaustive answer, but I have done some work on SVM.
> > Take it with a grain of salt though, I am not an expert.
> > 
> > * HSA is an architecture that provides a common programming model for CPUs
> > and accelerators (GPGPUs etc). It does have SVM requirement (I/O page
> > faults, PASID and compatible address spaces), though it's only a small
> > part of it.
> > 
> > * Similarly, OpenCL provides an API for dealing with accelerators. OpenCL
> > 2.0 introduced the concept of Fine-Grained System SVM, which allows to
> > pass userspace pointers to devices. It is just one flavor of SVM, they
> > also have coarse-grained and non-system. But they might have coined the
> > name, and I believe that in the context of Linux IOMMU, when we talk about
> > "SVM" it is OpenCL's fine-grained system SVM.
> > [...]
> > 
> > While SVM is only about virtual address space,
> As you mentioned, SVM is only about virtual address space, I'd like to know how to
> manage the physical address especially about device's RAM, before HMM?
> 
> When OpenCL alloc a SVM pointer like:
>     void* p = clSVMAlloc (
>         context, // an OpenCL context where this buffer is available
>         CL_MEM_READ_WRITE | CL_MEM_SVM_FINE_GRAIN_BUFFER,
>         size, // amount of memory to allocate (in bytes)
>         0 // alignment in bytes (0 means default)
>     );
> 
> where this RAM come from， device RAM or host RAM?
> 

For SVM using ATS/PASID with FINE_GRAIN your allocation can only
be inside the system memory (host RAM). You need a special system
bus like CAPI or CCIX which both are step further than ATS/PASID
to be able to allow fine grain to use device memory.

However that is where HMM can be usefull as HMM is a software
solution to this problem. So with HMM and a device that can work
with HMM, you can get fine grain allocation to also use device
memory however any CPU access will happen in host RAM.

Jérôme

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#1689574

Hi Jérôme and Jean-Philippe ,

Get it, thanks for all of your detail explain.

Thanks
Yisheng Xie

On 2017/7/17 22:27, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 07:57:23PM +0800, Yisheng Xie wrote:
>> Hi Jean-Philippe，
>>
>> On 2017/6/12 19:37, Jean-Philippe Brucker wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> On 10/06/17 05:06, Wuzongyong (Cordius Wu, Euler Dept) wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Could someone explain differences and relations between the SVM(Shared
>>>> Virtual Memory, by Intel), HSA(Heterogeneous System Architecture, by AMD),
>>>> HMM(Heterogeneous Memory Management, by Glisse) and UM(Unified Memory, by
>>>> NVIDIA) ? Are these in the substitutional relation?
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, these aim to solve the same thing, sharing pointers
>>>> between CPU and GPU(implement with ATS/PASID/PRI/IOMMU support). So far,
>>>> SVM and HSA can only be used by integrated gpu. And, Intel declare that
>>>> the root ports doesn’t not have the required TLP prefix support, resulting
>>>>  that SVM can’t be used by discrete devices. So could someone tell me the
>>>> required TLP prefix means what specifically?>
>>>> With HMM, we can use allocator like malloc to manage host and device
>>>> memory. Does this mean that there is no need to use SVM and HSA with HMM,
>>>> or HMM is the basis of SVM and HAS to implement Fine-Grained system SVM
>>>> defined in the opencl spec?
>>>
>>> I can't provide an exhaustive answer, but I have done some work on SVM.
>>> Take it with a grain of salt though, I am not an expert.
>>>
>>> * HSA is an architecture that provides a common programming model for CPUs
>>> and accelerators (GPGPUs etc). It does have SVM requirement (I/O page
>>> faults, PASID and compatible address spaces), though it's only a small
>>> part of it.
>>>
>>> * Similarly, OpenCL provides an API for dealing with accelerators. OpenCL
>>> 2.0 introduced the concept of Fine-Grained System SVM, which allows to
>>> pass userspace pointers to devices. It is just one flavor of SVM, they
>>> also have coarse-grained and non-system. But they might have coined the
>>> name, and I believe that in the context of Linux IOMMU, when we talk about
>>> "SVM" it is OpenCL's fine-grained system SVM.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> While SVM is only about virtual address space,
>> As you mentioned, SVM is only about virtual address space, I'd like to know how to
>> manage the physical address especially about device's RAM, before HMM?
>>
>> When OpenCL alloc a SVM pointer like:
>>     void* p = clSVMAlloc (
>>         context, // an OpenCL context where this buffer is available
>>         CL_MEM_READ_WRITE | CL_MEM_SVM_FINE_GRAIN_BUFFER,
>>         size, // amount of memory to allocate (in bytes)
>>         0 // alignment in bytes (0 means default)
>>     );
>>
>> where this RAM come from， device RAM or host RAM?
>>
> 
> For SVM using ATS/PASID with FINE_GRAIN your allocation can only
> be inside the system memory (host RAM). You need a special system
> bus like CAPI or CCIX which both are step further than ATS/PASID
> to be able to allow fine grain to use device memory.
> 
> However that is where HMM can be usefull as HMM is a software
> solution to this problem. So with HMM and a device that can work
> with HMM, you can get fine grain allocation to also use device
> memory however any CPU access will happen in host RAM.
> 
> Jérôme
> 
> .
> 

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