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Groups > linux.kernel > #1501650 > unrolled thread

Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1

Started byGeert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>
First post2016-10-17 09:40 +0200
Last post2016-10-19 18:30 +0200
Articles 8 — 6 participants

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  Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> - 2016-10-17 09:40 +0200
    Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com> - 2016-10-17 19:00 +0200
      Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de> - 2016-10-17 23:10 +0200
        Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com> - 2016-10-18 00:40 +0200
          Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Alexey Brodkin <Alexey.Brodkin@synopsys.com> - 2016-10-19 17:00 +0200
            Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Thomas Petazzoni <thomas.petazzoni@free-electrons.com> - 2016-10-19 22:40 +0200
            Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Michael Ellerman <mpe@ellerman.id.au> - 2016-10-27 02:00 +0200
          Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1 Michael Ellerman <mpe@ellerman.id.au> - 2016-10-19 18:30 +0200

#1501650 — Re: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1

FromGeert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>
Date2016-10-17 09:40 +0200
SubjectRe: Build regressions/improvements in v4.9-rc1
Message-ID<staGB-sN-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven
<geert@linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> Below is the list of build error/warning regressions/improvements in
> v4.9-rc1[1] compared to v4.8[2].

> [1] http://kisskb.ellerman.id.au/kisskb/head/11053/ (all 262 configs)
> [2] http://kisskb.ellerman.id.au/kisskb/head/10989/ (all 262 configs)

> 48 error regressions:
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r4]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r5]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r6]':  => 475, 476
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r8]':  => 476, 475, 515
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r11]':  => 476
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r13]':  => 493, 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r14]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r18]':  => 493
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r21]':  => 493
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r6]':  => 476, 475, 515
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r4,[r7]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r6,[r12]':  => 493
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r6,[r3]':  => 475
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r6,[r8]':  => 493
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r6,[r9]':  => 493
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r0,[r6]':  => 516
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r10,[r12]':  => 496
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r14,[r9]':  => 496
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r16,[r8]':  => 496
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r0]':  => 479
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r13]':  => 496, 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r18]':  => 496
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r21]':  => 496
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r4]':  => 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r5]':  => 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r6]':  => 478, 516, 479
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r2,[r8]':  => 479, 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r11]':  => 479
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r13]':  => 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r14]':  => 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r6]':  => 479, 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r7]':  => 478
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478

arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig

>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/powerpc/kvm/book3s_hv_rm_xics.c: error: implicit declaration of function 'get_hard_smp_processor_id' [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]:  => 758:2

powerpc/ppc64_defconfig+UP

>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/drivers/dma/omap-dma.c: error: unrecognizable insn::  => 350:1

cris-allyesconfig
cris-allmodconfig

>   + error: ".irq_set_parent" [drivers/mfd/tps65217.ko] undefined!:  => N/A
>   + error: "irq_set_parent" [drivers/mfd/tps65217.ko] undefined!:  => N/A

ppc64le/allmodconfig+ppc64le
powerpc/powerpc-allmodconfig

Gr{oetje,eeting}s,

                        Geert

--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org

In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
                                -- Linus Torvalds

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#1502209

FromVineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com>
Date2016-10-17 19:00 +0200
Message-ID<stjqx-61C-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1501650
+CC Arnd, Michal

Hi Geert, Arnd

Need some guidance here.

On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
>> 48 error regressions:
>> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
>> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  => 475

[snip...]

>> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
>> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
> arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig


I'm thinking how to address this correctly.

This is due to the older version of compiler.  The fix itself is trivial - add an
"call as-instr" construct in Makefile to get -DARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD

However the atomic64 API variant (CONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64 or arch native) which
gets included in build comes from Kconfig (ISA supports them or not). How do we
tie the Makefile info into the Kconfig.

We could trigger a build failure for invalid combinations of GENERIC_ATOMIC64 and
ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD but that would be less than ideal out of box experience.

Or the simpler solution is that kisskb upgrades the ARC GNU compiler ;-)

-Vineet

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#1502461

FromArnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>
Date2016-10-17 23:10 +0200
Message-ID<stnku-wX-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1502209
On Monday, October 17, 2016 9:59:24 AM CEST Vineet Gupta wrote:
> +CC Arnd, Michal
> 
> Hi Geert, Arnd
> 
> Need some guidance here.
> 
> On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> >> 48 error regressions:
> >> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
> >> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  => 475
> 
> [snip...]
> 
> >> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
> >> >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
> > arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig
> 
> 
> I'm thinking how to address this correctly.
> 
> This is due to the older version of compiler.  The fix itself is trivial - add an
> "call as-instr" construct in Makefile to get -DARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD
> 
> However the atomic64 API variant (CONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64 or arch native) which
> gets included in build comes from Kconfig (ISA supports them or not). How do we
> tie the Makefile info into the Kconfig.
> 
> We could trigger a build failure for invalid combinations of GENERIC_ATOMIC64 and
> ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD but that would be less than ideal out of box experience.
> 
> Or the simpler solution is that kisskb upgrades the ARC GNU compiler 

Some ideas, none of which are perfect:

- add an #ifndef ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD clause in asm/atomic.h that uses
  .long with hardcoded opcodes in place of the mnemonics.

- instead of setting CONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64 from Kconfig, add a file
  in arch/arc/kernel/ that includes lib/atomic64.c if ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD
  is not set.

- add "-DCONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64" to cflags-y from arch/arc/Makefile if
  old binutils are found.

I think someone was suggesting in the past that Kconfig could be extended
to make decisions based on the gcc version, and the same thing could
be done for binutils. Don't remember who that was though. I think a number
of awkward hacks in the kernel could be simplified if we had this.

	And

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#1502561

FromVineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com>
Date2016-10-18 00:40 +0200
Message-ID<stoJC-1Co-77@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1502461
On 10/17/2016 02:02 PM, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
> On Monday, October 17, 2016 9:59:24 AM CEST Vineet Gupta wrote:
>> +CC Arnd, Michal
>>
>> Hi Geert, Arnd
>>
>> Need some guidance here.
>>
>> On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
>>>> 48 error regressions:
>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  => 475
>>
>> [snip...]
>>
>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
>>> arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking how to address this correctly.
>>
>> This is due to the older version of compiler.  The fix itself is trivial - add an
>> "call as-instr" construct in Makefile to get -DARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD
>>
>> However the atomic64 API variant (CONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64 or arch native) which
>> gets included in build comes from Kconfig (ISA supports them or not). How do we
>> tie the Makefile info into the Kconfig.
>>
>> We could trigger a build failure for invalid combinations of GENERIC_ATOMIC64 and
>> ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD but that would be less than ideal out of box experience.
>>
>> Or the simpler solution is that kisskb upgrades the ARC GNU compiler 
> 
> Some ideas, none of which are perfect:
> 
> - add an #ifndef ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD clause in asm/atomic.h that uses
>   .long with hardcoded opcodes in place of the mnemonics.
> 
> - instead of setting CONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64 from Kconfig, add a file
>   in arch/arc/kernel/ that includes lib/atomic64.c if ARC_TOOLS_SUPPORT_LLOCKD
>   is not set.
> 
> - add "-DCONFIG_GENERIC_ATOMIC64" to cflags-y from arch/arc/Makefile if
>   old binutils are found.

I'm tending towards this one - seems cleanest, however...

@Michael can I bother you to upgrade the tools or is this absolutely must for you.

> 
> I think someone was suggesting in the past that Kconfig could be extended
> to make decisions based on the gcc version, and the same thing could
> be done for binutils. Don't remember who that was though. I think a number
> of awkward hacks in the kernel could be simplified if we had this.
> 
> 	And
> 

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#1503783

FromAlexey Brodkin <Alexey.Brodkin@synopsys.com>
Date2016-10-19 17:00 +0200
Message-ID<su0vw-2D0-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1502561
Hi Michael,

On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 22:50 +1100, Michael Ellerman wrote:
> Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com> writes:
> > 
> > On 10/17/2016 02:02 PM, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Monday, October 17, 2016 9:59:24 AM CEST Vineet Gupta wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 48 error regressions:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  =>
> > > > > > > 475
> > > > 
> > > > [snip...]
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
> > > > > arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig
> > 
> > @Michael can I bother you to upgrade the tools or is this absolutely must for you.
> 
> Happy to, just short on time.
> 
> I tried building a new toolchain with buildroot, using the instructions
> from last time, but the resulting toolchain doesn't relocate, ie. it has
> hard-coded paths in it. Any ideas?

Hm... that's strange - it used to work but doesn't work with newer Buildroot...

Anyways if something very simple (i.e. with no extra libraries) works for you just go
ahead and grab pre-built image that Thomas Petazzoni builds.

That's the most recent one:
http://autobuild.buildroot.org/toolchains/tarballs/br-arcle-hs38-full-2016.08-613-ge98b4dd.tar.bz2

If I'm not mistaken Thomas runs some post-processing script to make these toolchains
relocatable.

Maybe Thomas may comment on that and even maybe will share his post-processing technique
so you'll be able to build your customized toolchain.

Regards,
Alexey

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#1504320

FromThomas Petazzoni <thomas.petazzoni@free-electrons.com>
Date2016-10-19 22:40 +0200
Message-ID<su5Ox-6he-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1503783
Hello,

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:23:12 +0000, Alexey Brodkin wrote:

> > I tried building a new toolchain with buildroot, using the instructions
> > from last time, but the resulting toolchain doesn't relocate, ie. it has
> > hard-coded paths in it. Any ideas?  
> 
> Hm... that's strange - it used to work but doesn't work with newer Buildroot...
> 
> Anyways if something very simple (i.e. with no extra libraries) works for you just go
> ahead and grab pre-built image that Thomas Petazzoni builds.
> 
> That's the most recent one:
> http://autobuild.buildroot.org/toolchains/tarballs/br-arcle-hs38-full-2016.08-613-ge98b4dd.tar.bz2
> 
> If I'm not mistaken Thomas runs some post-processing script to make these toolchains
> relocatable.
> 
> Maybe Thomas may comment on that and even maybe will share his post-processing technique
> so you'll be able to build your customized toolchain.

I simply have two patches on top of Buildroot to build the toolchains
available at http://autobuild.buildroot.org/toolchains/tarballs/ :

 - One patch that builds mpc, gmp and mpfr statically. This is needed
   since the host tools are built with an absolute rpath, so once the
   toolchain is moved, it can't find the host shared libraries that
   have been built for it. Using static linking is a temporary
   work-around, our idea is to fix the rpath to use relative path using
   $ORIGIN. There are some patches from Samuel Martin doing this, we
   have discussed them during the Buildroot Developers Meeting last
   week-end, and we proposed to Samuel to investigate a slightly
   different approach (namely add more features to the upstream
   patchelf utility).

 - One patch that fixes the toolchain wrapper logic so that it works
   fine when the toolchain is moved out of the usr/ sub-directory. We
   started discussing it during the meeting, but I got drowned into
   other discussions, so we haven't had the time to get to the bottom
   of it.

If people are interested, I can prepare a tutorial on how to build
re-usable and relocatable toolchains with Buildroot.

Best regards,

Thomas
-- 
Thomas Petazzoni, CTO, Free Electrons
Embedded Linux and Kernel engineering
http://free-electrons.com

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#1509962

FromMichael Ellerman <mpe@ellerman.id.au>
Date2016-10-27 02:00 +0200
Message-ID<swGh1-2j3-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1503783
Alexey Brodkin <Alexey.Brodkin@synopsys.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 22:50 +1100, Michael Ellerman wrote:
>> Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com> writes:
>> > On 10/17/2016 02:02 PM, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
>> > > On Monday, October 17, 2016 9:59:24 AM CEST Vineet Gupta wrote:
>> > > > On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
>> > > > > > 48 error regressions:
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
>> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  =>
>> > > > > > > 475
>> > > > 
>> > > > [snip...]
>> > > > > > > 
>> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
>> > > > > > >   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
>> > > > > arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig
>> > 
>> > @Michael can I bother you to upgrade the tools or is this absolutely must for you.
>> 
>> Happy to, just short on time.
>> 
>> I tried building a new toolchain with buildroot, using the instructions
>> from last time, but the resulting toolchain doesn't relocate, ie. it has
>> hard-coded paths in it. Any ideas?
>
> Hm... that's strange - it used to work but doesn't work with newer Buildroot...
>
> Anyways if something very simple (i.e. with no extra libraries) works for you just go
> ahead and grab pre-built image that Thomas Petazzoni builds.
>
> That's the most recent one:
> http://autobuild.buildroot.org/toolchains/tarballs/br-arcle-hs38-full-2016.08-613-ge98b4dd.tar.bz2

Thanks, I grabbed that and it works for axs103_smp_defconfig:

  http://kisskb.ellerman.id.au/kisskb/buildresult/12840656/


It doesn't work for axs101_defconfig, saying:

  arch/arc/Makefile:29: *** Toolchain not configured for ARCompact builds.  Stop.


So those are still failing:

  http://kisskb.ellerman.id.au/kisskb/buildresult/12841194/


cheers

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#1504106

FromMichael Ellerman <mpe@ellerman.id.au>
Date2016-10-19 18:30 +0200
Message-ID<su0vw-2D0-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#1502561
Vineet Gupta <Vineet.Gupta1@synopsys.com> writes:
> On 10/17/2016 02:02 PM, Arnd Bergmann wrote:
>> On Monday, October 17, 2016 9:59:24 AM CEST Vineet Gupta wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2016 12:34 AM, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
>>>>> 48 error regressions:
>>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r0]':  => 476
>>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `llockd r2,[r13]':  => 475
>>>
>>> [snip...]
>>>
>>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r4,[r8]':  => 516
>>>>>>   + /home/kisskb/slave/src/arch/arc/include/asm/atomic.h: Error: bad instruction `scondd r6,[r3]':  => 478
>>>> arcv2/axs103_smp_defconfig
>
> @Michael can I bother you to upgrade the tools or is this absolutely must for you.

Happy to, just short on time.

I tried building a new toolchain with buildroot, using the instructions
from last time, but the resulting toolchain doesn't relocate, ie. it has
hard-coded paths in it. Any ideas?

cheers

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