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Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the scheduling domain hierarchy

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  Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the  scheduling domain hierarchy Dario Faggioli <dario.faggioli@citrix.com> - 2015-09-15 19:00 +0200
    Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the scheduling  domain hierarchy Juergen Gross <jgross@suse.com> - 2015-09-21 07:50 +0200
      Re: Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the  scheduling domain hierarchy Juergen Gross <jgross@suse.com> - 2015-09-22 06:50 +0200

#1225426 — Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the scheduling domain hierarchy

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On Thu, 2015-08-20 at 20:16 +0200, Juergen Groß wrote:
> On 08/18/2015 05:55 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > So, as a followup of what we were discussing in this thread:
> >
> >   [Xen-devel] PV-vNUMA issue: topology is misinterpreted by the guest
> >   http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg03241.html
> >
> > I started looking in more details at scheduling domains in the Linux
> > kernel. Now, that thread was about CPUID and vNUMA, and their weird way
> > of interacting, while this thing I'm proposing here is completely
> > independent from them both.
> >
> > In fact, no matter whether vNUMA is supported and enabled, and no matter
> > whether CPUID is reporting accurate, random, meaningful or completely
> > misleading information, I think that we should do something about how
> > scheduling domains are build.
> >
> > Fact is, unless we use 1:1, and immutable (across all the guest
> > lifetime) pinning, scheduling domains should not be constructed, in
> > Linux, by looking at *any* topology information, because that just does
> > not make any sense, when vcpus move around.
> >
> > Let me state this again (hoping to make myself as clear as possible): no
> > matter in  how much good shape we put CPUID support, no matter how
> > beautifully and consistently that will interact with both vNUMA,
> > licensing requirements and whatever else. It will be always possible for
> > vCPU #0 and vCPU #3 to be scheduled on two SMT threads at time t1, and
> > on two different NUMA nodes at time t2. Hence, the Linux scheduler
> > should really not skew his load balancing logic toward any of those two
> > situations, as neither of them could be considered correct (since
> > nothing is!).
> >
> > For now, this only covers the PV case. HVM case shouldn't be any
> > different, but I haven't looked at how to make the same thing happen in
> > there as well.
> >
> > OVERALL DESCRIPTION
> > ===================
> > What this RFC patch does is, in the Xen PV case, configure scheduling
> > domains in such a way that there is only one of them, spanning all the
> > pCPUs of the guest.
> >
> > Note that the patch deals directly with scheduling domains, and there is
> > no need to alter the masks that will then be used for building and
> > reporting the topology (via CPUID, /proc/cpuinfo, /sysfs, etc.). That is
> > the main difference between it and the patch proposed by Juergen here:
> > http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg05088.html
> >
> > This means that when, in future, we will fix CPUID handling and make it
> > comply with whatever logic or requirements we want, that won't have  any
> > unexpected side effects on scheduling domains.
> >
> > Information about how the scheduling domains are being constructed
> > during boot are available in `dmesg', if the kernel is booted with the
> > 'sched_debug' parameter. It is also possible to look
> > at /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/cpu*, and at /proc/schedstat.
> >
> > With the patch applied, only one scheduling domain is created, called
> > the 'VCPU' domain, spanning all the guest's (or Dom0's) vCPUs. You can
> > tell that from the fact that every cpu* folder
> > in /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/ only have one subdirectory
> > ('domain0'), with all the tweaks and the tunables for our scheduling
> > domain.
> >
> > EVALUATION
> > ==========
> > I've tested this with UnixBench, and by looking at Xen build time, on a
> > 16, 24 and 48 pCPUs hosts. I've run the benchmarks in Dom0 only, for
> > now, but I plan to re-run them in DomUs soon (Juergen may be doing
> > something similar to this in DomU already, AFAUI).
> >
> > I've run the benchmarks with and without the patch applied ('patched'
> > and 'vanilla', respectively, in the tables below), and with different
> > number of build jobs (in case of the Xen build) or of parallel copy of
> > the benchmarks (in the case of UnixBench).
> >
> > What I get from the numbers is that the patch almost always brings
> > benefits, in some cases even huge ones. There are a couple of cases
> > where we regress, but always only slightly so, especially if comparing
> > that to the magnitude of some of the improvement that we get.
> >
> > Bear also in mind that these results are gathered from Dom0, and without
> > any overcommitment at the vCPU level (i.e., nr. vCPUs == nr pCPUs). If
> > we move things in DomU and do overcommit at the Xen scheduler level, I
> > am expecting even better results.
> >
> ...
> > REQUEST FOR COMMENTS
> > ====================
> > Basically, the kind of feedback I'd be really glad to hear is:
> >   - what you guys thing of the approach,
> 
> Yesterday at the end of the developer meeting we (Andrew, Elena and
> myself) discussed this topic again.
> 
Hey,

Sorry for replying so late, I've been on vacation from right after
XenSummit up until yesterday. :-)

> Regarding a possible future scenario with credit2 eventually supporting
> gang scheduling on hyperthreads (which is desirable due to security
> reasons [side channel attack] and fairness) my patch seems to be more
> suited for that direction than yours. 
>
Ok. Just let me mention that 'Credit2 + gang scheduling' might not be
exactly around the corner (although, we can prioritize working on it if
we want).

In principle, I think it's a really nice idea. I still don't have clear
in mind how we would handle a couple of situations, but let's leave this
aside for now, and stay on-topic.

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I
> think scheduling domains won't enable the guest kernel's scheduler to
> migrate threads more easily between hyperthreads opposed to other vcpus,
> while my approach can easily be extended to do so.
> 
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. As far as the (Linux)
scheduler is concerned, your patch and mine do the exact same thing:
they arrange for the scheduling domains, when they're built, during
boot, not to consider hyperthreads or multi-cores.

Mine does it by removing the SMT (and the MC) level from the data
structure in the scheduler that is used as a base for configuring the
scheduling domains. Yours does it by making the topology bitmaps that
are used at each one of those level all look the same. In fact, with
your patch applied, I get the exact same situation as with mine, as far
as scheduling domains are concerned: there is only one scheduling
domain, with a different scheduling group for each vCPU inside it.

In my case, that one scheduling domain is the special one that I define
in xen_sched_domain_topology (in arch/x86/xen/smp.c), in my patch (it's
called PCPU). In your case, it's the DIE scheduling domain, i.e., the
one coming from the last level defined in default_topology (in
kernel/sched/core.c). I'd have to recheck, but ISTR that, since you're
setting all the bitmaps for all the levels to the same value, previous
levels are created, recognised to be all equal, and merged/discarded.

IOW, mine is using a scheduler provided interface explicitly, via
set_sched_topology(), i.e., the way an architecture (and in this case
the architecture would be 'xen') let the scheduler know about its
topology quirks:
 http://lxr.free-electrons.com/ident?i=set_sched_topology
Basically, I'm telling the scheduler <<Hey, you're on Xen, don't bother
looking for hyperthreads, as they don't make any sense!>>.

Yours is changing the topology bitmaps directly. Basically, you're
telling nothing to the scheduler, which then goes down looking for SMTs
and MCs, but finds none.

All this being said, the effect is the same, and the reason why the
scheduling inside the guest changes --between mainline and both mine or
your patch-- is because of scheduling domains, or so it is how I
understood it.

Therefore, I don't really understand why you're saying one approach is
more easily extensible toward anything... What am I missing?

> >   - whether you think, looking at this preliminary set of numbers, that
> >     this is something worth continuing investigating,
> 
> I believe as both approaches lead to the same topology information used
> by the scheduler (all vcpus are regarded as being equal) your numbers
> should apply to my patch as well. Would you mind verifying this?
> 
I'll run some tests, but yes, I 100% expect the numbers to look the
same. Actually, I did a very quick check, for a few cases, already, and
that is indeed the case, but I'll report back when I'll have the full
data set.

> >   - if yes, what other workloads and benchmark it would make sense to
> >     throw at it.
> 
> As you already mentioned an overcommitted host should be looked at as
> well.
> 
Sure.

> Thanks for doing the measurements,
> 
And more of them will be coming. ISTR you telling me in Seattle that you
(or some teammates of yours) were running some benches too... Any output
from that yet? :-)

Thanks and Regards,
Dario
-- 
<<This happens because I choose it to happen!>> (Raistlin Majere)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Faggioli, Ph.D, http://about.me/dario.faggioli
Senior Software Engineer, Citrix Systems R&D Ltd., Cambridge (UK)

-- 
<<This happens because I choose it to happen!>> (Raistlin Majere)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Faggioli, Ph.D, http://about.me/dario.faggioli
Senior Software Engineer, Citrix Systems R&D Ltd., Cambridge (UK)

-- 
<<This happens because I choose it to happen!>> (Raistlin Majere)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dario Faggioli, Ph.D, http://about.me/dario.faggioli
Senior Software Engineer, Citrix Systems R&D Ltd., Cambridge (UK)

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#1229058 — Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH RFC] xen: if on Xen, "flatten" the scheduling domain hierarchy

On 09/15/2015 06:50 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
> On Thu, 2015-08-20 at 20:16 +0200, Juergen Groß wrote:
>> On 08/18/2015 05:55 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> So, as a followup of what we were discussing in this thread:
>>>
>>>    [Xen-devel] PV-vNUMA issue: topology is misinterpreted by the guest
>>>    http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg03241.html
>>>
>>> I started looking in more details at scheduling domains in the Linux
>>> kernel. Now, that thread was about CPUID and vNUMA, and their weird way
>>> of interacting, while this thing I'm proposing here is completely
>>> independent from them both.
>>>
>>> In fact, no matter whether vNUMA is supported and enabled, and no matter
>>> whether CPUID is reporting accurate, random, meaningful or completely
>>> misleading information, I think that we should do something about how
>>> scheduling domains are build.
>>>
>>> Fact is, unless we use 1:1, and immutable (across all the guest
>>> lifetime) pinning, scheduling domains should not be constructed, in
>>> Linux, by looking at *any* topology information, because that just does
>>> not make any sense, when vcpus move around.
>>>
>>> Let me state this again (hoping to make myself as clear as possible): no
>>> matter in  how much good shape we put CPUID support, no matter how
>>> beautifully and consistently that will interact with both vNUMA,
>>> licensing requirements and whatever else. It will be always possible for
>>> vCPU #0 and vCPU #3 to be scheduled on two SMT threads at time t1, and
>>> on two different NUMA nodes at time t2. Hence, the Linux scheduler
>>> should really not skew his load balancing logic toward any of those two
>>> situations, as neither of them could be considered correct (since
>>> nothing is!).
>>>
>>> For now, this only covers the PV case. HVM case shouldn't be any
>>> different, but I haven't looked at how to make the same thing happen in
>>> there as well.
>>>
>>> OVERALL DESCRIPTION
>>> ===================
>>> What this RFC patch does is, in the Xen PV case, configure scheduling
>>> domains in such a way that there is only one of them, spanning all the
>>> pCPUs of the guest.
>>>
>>> Note that the patch deals directly with scheduling domains, and there is
>>> no need to alter the masks that will then be used for building and
>>> reporting the topology (via CPUID, /proc/cpuinfo, /sysfs, etc.). That is
>>> the main difference between it and the patch proposed by Juergen here:
>>> http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg05088.html
>>>
>>> This means that when, in future, we will fix CPUID handling and make it
>>> comply with whatever logic or requirements we want, that won't have  any
>>> unexpected side effects on scheduling domains.
>>>
>>> Information about how the scheduling domains are being constructed
>>> during boot are available in `dmesg', if the kernel is booted with the
>>> 'sched_debug' parameter. It is also possible to look
>>> at /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/cpu*, and at /proc/schedstat.
>>>
>>> With the patch applied, only one scheduling domain is created, called
>>> the 'VCPU' domain, spanning all the guest's (or Dom0's) vCPUs. You can
>>> tell that from the fact that every cpu* folder
>>> in /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/ only have one subdirectory
>>> ('domain0'), with all the tweaks and the tunables for our scheduling
>>> domain.
>>>
>>> EVALUATION
>>> ==========
>>> I've tested this with UnixBench, and by looking at Xen build time, on a
>>> 16, 24 and 48 pCPUs hosts. I've run the benchmarks in Dom0 only, for
>>> now, but I plan to re-run them in DomUs soon (Juergen may be doing
>>> something similar to this in DomU already, AFAUI).
>>>
>>> I've run the benchmarks with and without the patch applied ('patched'
>>> and 'vanilla', respectively, in the tables below), and with different
>>> number of build jobs (in case of the Xen build) or of parallel copy of
>>> the benchmarks (in the case of UnixBench).
>>>
>>> What I get from the numbers is that the patch almost always brings
>>> benefits, in some cases even huge ones. There are a couple of cases
>>> where we regress, but always only slightly so, especially if comparing
>>> that to the magnitude of some of the improvement that we get.
>>>
>>> Bear also in mind that these results are gathered from Dom0, and without
>>> any overcommitment at the vCPU level (i.e., nr. vCPUs == nr pCPUs). If
>>> we move things in DomU and do overcommit at the Xen scheduler level, I
>>> am expecting even better results.
>>>
>> ...
>>> REQUEST FOR COMMENTS
>>> ====================
>>> Basically, the kind of feedback I'd be really glad to hear is:
>>>    - what you guys thing of the approach,
>>
>> Yesterday at the end of the developer meeting we (Andrew, Elena and
>> myself) discussed this topic again.
>>
> Hey,
>
> Sorry for replying so late, I've been on vacation from right after
> XenSummit up until yesterday. :-)
>
>> Regarding a possible future scenario with credit2 eventually supporting
>> gang scheduling on hyperthreads (which is desirable due to security
>> reasons [side channel attack] and fairness) my patch seems to be more
>> suited for that direction than yours.
>>
> Ok. Just let me mention that 'Credit2 + gang scheduling' might not be
> exactly around the corner (although, we can prioritize working on it if
> we want).
>
> In principle, I think it's a really nice idea. I still don't have clear
> in mind how we would handle a couple of situations, but let's leave this
> aside for now, and stay on-topic.
>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I
>> think scheduling domains won't enable the guest kernel's scheduler to
>> migrate threads more easily between hyperthreads opposed to other vcpus,
>> while my approach can easily be extended to do so.
>>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. As far as the (Linux)
> scheduler is concerned, your patch and mine do the exact same thing:
> they arrange for the scheduling domains, when they're built, during
> boot, not to consider hyperthreads or multi-cores.
>
> Mine does it by removing the SMT (and the MC) level from the data
> structure in the scheduler that is used as a base for configuring the
> scheduling domains. Yours does it by making the topology bitmaps that
> are used at each one of those level all look the same. In fact, with
> your patch applied, I get the exact same situation as with mine, as far
> as scheduling domains are concerned: there is only one scheduling
> domain, with a different scheduling group for each vCPU inside it.

Uuh, nearly.

Your case won't deal correctly with NUMA, as the generic NUMA code is
using set_sched_topology() as well. One of NUMA and Xen will win and
overwrite the other's settings.

To do things correctly you will have to handle NUMA as well.


Juergen

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#1229903

On 09/21/2015 07:49 AM, Juergen Gross wrote:
> On 09/15/2015 06:50 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
>> On Thu, 2015-08-20 at 20:16 +0200, Juergen Groß wrote:
>>> On 08/18/2015 05:55 PM, Dario Faggioli wrote:
>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>
>>>> So, as a followup of what we were discussing in this thread:
>>>>
>>>>    [Xen-devel] PV-vNUMA issue: topology is misinterpreted by the guest
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg03241.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I started looking in more details at scheduling domains in the Linux
>>>> kernel. Now, that thread was about CPUID and vNUMA, and their weird way
>>>> of interacting, while this thing I'm proposing here is completely
>>>> independent from them both.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, no matter whether vNUMA is supported and enabled, and no
>>>> matter
>>>> whether CPUID is reporting accurate, random, meaningful or completely
>>>> misleading information, I think that we should do something about how
>>>> scheduling domains are build.
>>>>
>>>> Fact is, unless we use 1:1, and immutable (across all the guest
>>>> lifetime) pinning, scheduling domains should not be constructed, in
>>>> Linux, by looking at *any* topology information, because that just does
>>>> not make any sense, when vcpus move around.
>>>>
>>>> Let me state this again (hoping to make myself as clear as
>>>> possible): no
>>>> matter in  how much good shape we put CPUID support, no matter how
>>>> beautifully and consistently that will interact with both vNUMA,
>>>> licensing requirements and whatever else. It will be always possible
>>>> for
>>>> vCPU #0 and vCPU #3 to be scheduled on two SMT threads at time t1, and
>>>> on two different NUMA nodes at time t2. Hence, the Linux scheduler
>>>> should really not skew his load balancing logic toward any of those two
>>>> situations, as neither of them could be considered correct (since
>>>> nothing is!).
>>>>
>>>> For now, this only covers the PV case. HVM case shouldn't be any
>>>> different, but I haven't looked at how to make the same thing happen in
>>>> there as well.
>>>>
>>>> OVERALL DESCRIPTION
>>>> ===================
>>>> What this RFC patch does is, in the Xen PV case, configure scheduling
>>>> domains in such a way that there is only one of them, spanning all the
>>>> pCPUs of the guest.
>>>>
>>>> Note that the patch deals directly with scheduling domains, and
>>>> there is
>>>> no need to alter the masks that will then be used for building and
>>>> reporting the topology (via CPUID, /proc/cpuinfo, /sysfs, etc.).
>>>> That is
>>>> the main difference between it and the patch proposed by Juergen here:
>>>> http://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2015-07/msg05088.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This means that when, in future, we will fix CPUID handling and make it
>>>> comply with whatever logic or requirements we want, that won't have
>>>> any
>>>> unexpected side effects on scheduling domains.
>>>>
>>>> Information about how the scheduling domains are being constructed
>>>> during boot are available in `dmesg', if the kernel is booted with the
>>>> 'sched_debug' parameter. It is also possible to look
>>>> at /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/cpu*, and at /proc/schedstat.
>>>>
>>>> With the patch applied, only one scheduling domain is created, called
>>>> the 'VCPU' domain, spanning all the guest's (or Dom0's) vCPUs. You can
>>>> tell that from the fact that every cpu* folder
>>>> in /proc/sys/kernel/sched_domain/ only have one subdirectory
>>>> ('domain0'), with all the tweaks and the tunables for our scheduling
>>>> domain.
>>>>
>>>> EVALUATION
>>>> ==========
>>>> I've tested this with UnixBench, and by looking at Xen build time, on a
>>>> 16, 24 and 48 pCPUs hosts. I've run the benchmarks in Dom0 only, for
>>>> now, but I plan to re-run them in DomUs soon (Juergen may be doing
>>>> something similar to this in DomU already, AFAUI).
>>>>
>>>> I've run the benchmarks with and without the patch applied ('patched'
>>>> and 'vanilla', respectively, in the tables below), and with different
>>>> number of build jobs (in case of the Xen build) or of parallel copy of
>>>> the benchmarks (in the case of UnixBench).
>>>>
>>>> What I get from the numbers is that the patch almost always brings
>>>> benefits, in some cases even huge ones. There are a couple of cases
>>>> where we regress, but always only slightly so, especially if comparing
>>>> that to the magnitude of some of the improvement that we get.
>>>>
>>>> Bear also in mind that these results are gathered from Dom0, and
>>>> without
>>>> any overcommitment at the vCPU level (i.e., nr. vCPUs == nr pCPUs). If
>>>> we move things in DomU and do overcommit at the Xen scheduler level, I
>>>> am expecting even better results.
>>>>
>>> ...
>>>> REQUEST FOR COMMENTS
>>>> ====================
>>>> Basically, the kind of feedback I'd be really glad to hear is:
>>>>    - what you guys thing of the approach,
>>>
>>> Yesterday at the end of the developer meeting we (Andrew, Elena and
>>> myself) discussed this topic again.
>>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> Sorry for replying so late, I've been on vacation from right after
>> XenSummit up until yesterday. :-)
>>
>>> Regarding a possible future scenario with credit2 eventually supporting
>>> gang scheduling on hyperthreads (which is desirable due to security
>>> reasons [side channel attack] and fairness) my patch seems to be more
>>> suited for that direction than yours.
>>>
>> Ok. Just let me mention that 'Credit2 + gang scheduling' might not be
>> exactly around the corner (although, we can prioritize working on it if
>> we want).
>>
>> In principle, I think it's a really nice idea. I still don't have clear
>> in mind how we would handle a couple of situations, but let's leave this
>> aside for now, and stay on-topic.
>>
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I
>>> think scheduling domains won't enable the guest kernel's scheduler to
>>> migrate threads more easily between hyperthreads opposed to other vcpus,
>>> while my approach can easily be extended to do so.
>>>
>> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. As far as the (Linux)
>> scheduler is concerned, your patch and mine do the exact same thing:
>> they arrange for the scheduling domains, when they're built, during
>> boot, not to consider hyperthreads or multi-cores.
>>
>> Mine does it by removing the SMT (and the MC) level from the data
>> structure in the scheduler that is used as a base for configuring the
>> scheduling domains. Yours does it by making the topology bitmaps that
>> are used at each one of those level all look the same. In fact, with
>> your patch applied, I get the exact same situation as with mine, as far
>> as scheduling domains are concerned: there is only one scheduling
>> domain, with a different scheduling group for each vCPU inside it.
>
> Uuh, nearly.
>
> Your case won't deal correctly with NUMA, as the generic NUMA code is
> using set_sched_topology() as well. One of NUMA and Xen will win and
> overwrite the other's settings.
>
> To do things correctly you will have to handle NUMA as well.

One other thing I just discovered: there are other consumers of the
topology sibling masks (e.g. topology_sibling_cpumask()) as well.

I think we would want to avoid any optimizations based on those in
drivers as well, not only in the scheduler.


Juergen

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