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Groups > linux.kernel > #1712630

Re: early x86 unseeded randomness

From Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>
Newsgroups linux.kernel
Subject Re: early x86 unseeded randomness
Date 2017-08-16 05:30 +0200
Message-ID <ueXbP-1L3-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <ueHA6-bQ-17@gated-at.bofh.it> <ueKoh-1VC-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <ueKoh-1VC-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <ueL10-2pR-17@gated-at.bofh.it> <ueLkm-2ya-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 04:42:47PM +0200, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> Care to read the paper?
> 
> We tried that 6 years ago on a wide range of machines from server to stupid
> first generation in order ATOM chips. All of them exposed more or less the
> same behaviour and passed RND validation tests.

Yeah, I read the paper, It points out that in a tight loop, they *did*
see real patterns in the TSC values that they read out.  But then they
did better by adding usleep(delay).  This is critical because this was
being done in userspace, when presumably there were other processes
running (kernel threads, if nothing else).

Whether this would still realistic in early boot, when interrupts may
not have been fully enabled, and many devices not even probed yet, and
when there are no other userspace processes to schedule against ---
and where you can't use usleep because the scheduler may not have been
initialized yet --- and where udelay is *way* more boring that usleep
--- I think is something where you can't rely on that paper.

So I think a lot of care is required here.....

     	     	    	    	     - Ted

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Thread

early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-14 19:40 +0200
  Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> - 2017-08-14 19:50 +0200
    Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-14 20:10 +0200
      Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> - 2017-08-14 20:20 +0200
        Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-14 21:10 +0200
          Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> - 2017-08-15 03:40 +0200
            Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> - 2017-08-15 08:50 +0200
              Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> - 2017-08-15 09:50 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> - 2017-08-15 10:10 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> - 2017-08-15 10:10 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> - 2017-08-15 14:20 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> - 2017-08-15 12:50 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-15 15:50 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> - 2017-08-15 15:50 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> - 2017-08-15 16:30 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-15 17:30 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> - 2017-08-15 19:40 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> - 2017-08-16 05:40 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> - 2017-08-16 11:20 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com> - 2017-08-16 12:00 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> - 2017-08-16 05:30 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de> - 2017-08-15 17:30 +0200
                Re: early x86 unseeded randomness Michael Ellerman <mpe@ellerman.id.au> - 2017-08-15 14:50 +0200

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