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Groups > linux.debian.vote > #2221 > unrolled thread

Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian

Started byStephan Lachnit <stephanlachnit@debian.org>
First post2021-03-30 15:10 +0200
Last post2021-03-30 18:30 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 55 — 16 participants

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  Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Stephan Lachnit <stephanlachnit@debian.org> - 2021-03-30 15:10 +0200
    Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-30 16:00 +0200
      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Gard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org> - 2021-03-30 16:20 +0200
        Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-30 16:40 +0200
          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-30 16:50 +0200
            Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-30 18:40 +0200
              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-30 19:20 +0200
                Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-30 19:30 +0200
                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-30 20:10 +0200
                    Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-31 07:30 +0200
                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Gard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org> - 2021-03-31 12:00 +0200
                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pasha <pasha@bell01.com> - 2021-03-31 16:50 +0200
                          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 17:10 +0200
                            Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-03-31 18:00 +0200
                              Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 18:10 +0200
                                Re: Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 03:00 +0200
                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 10:50 +0200
                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 10:50 +0200
                                    Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-04-01 13:20 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 14:00 +0200
                                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 14:50 +0200
                                          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 15:20 +0200
                                            Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 15:40 +0200
                                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 16:40 +0200
                                                Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 16:50 +0200
                                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 17:00 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 15:20 +0200
                                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 15:50 +0200
                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 18:30 +0200
                                Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 03:20 +0200
                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2021-04-01 10:30 +0200
                                    Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 15:30 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 15:40 +0200
                                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 16:00 +0200
                                          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2021-04-01 16:40 +0200
                                          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 17:00 +0200
                                            Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 18:00 +0200
                                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-04-01 18:20 +0200
                                                Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> - 2021-04-01 18:40 +0200
                                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-04-01 19:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Sruthi Chandran <srud@disroot.org> - 2021-04-01 20:10 +0200
                                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 18:30 +0200
                                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 18:30 +0200
                                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-04-04 11:30 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 15:40 +0200
                                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pasha <pasha@bell01.com> - 2021-04-01 16:00 +0200
                                          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2021-04-01 16:10 +0200
                                          Fears Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Ulrike Uhlig <ulrike@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 18:20 +0200
                                        Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian debian@jack.fr.eu.org - 2021-04-01 16:10 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2021-04-01 15:50 +0200
                                      Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Taowa <taowa@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 16:50 +0200
                                  Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 10:50 +0200
                              Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Taowa <taowa@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 19:50 +0200
                            Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 18:50 +0200
          Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian Gard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org> - 2021-03-30 18:30 +0200

Page 1 of 3  [1] 2 3  Next page →


#2221 — Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian

FromStephan Lachnit <stephanlachnit@debian.org>
Date2021-03-30 15:10 +0200
SubjectRe: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
Message-ID<BYmi5-1gL-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:04 PM Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's supposed to represent everyone who fights for a future where software is open
>
> Is it possible?  To reopresent everyone.
>
> Shouldn't he instead represent that he's expected to represent?
>
> >From the fsf.org:
> ---->8----
> ...
> Our Core Work
>
> The FSF maintains historic articles covering free software philosophy and
> maintains the Free Software Definition - to show clearly what must be
> true about a particular software program for it to be considered free software.
> ...
>
> The FSF publishes the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL)
> ...
> ---------->8------
> and so on.
>
> Here is nothing about rms (or any FSF leader/board stuff/member) must
> represent _you_.  Or me, in turn.

Obviously the FSF can do whatever they want. They don't *have* to represent
me. But that doesn't mean that I still felt that they did. At least from my
experience within the OSS world, I always felt that people see the FSF as an
important voice in their mission towards an open future. With that decision,
I lost a lot of faith in them, and apparently I'm not the only one.

> > I mean not even the fr*cking FSFE knew about that
>
> Why it should?  Different organization.

That's not the point. The FSF should obviously communicate better who is
on their board and who isn't, with elections etc. Just appointing someone
is bad. Especially when that person was removed just two years ago, for
whatever reason (the reason doesn't really matter). It shouldn't have
happened behind closed doors without a public discussion.

The reason I like free software is that nothing is behind closed doors.

> > And there was no apology from RMS
>
> There was no apology from RMS "critics", which e.g. improperly quote RMS
> in the case of Minsky "defence" (the blame was itself is a lie).

Honestly I don't know enough about RMS to argue about that, and I also don't
want to discuss it here. For me, the circumstances are reason enough to call
the FSF out. The way the decision was communicated was not worthy of an
organization that stands for free software. If someone was removed from
the board for whatever reason, before putting them back in, there should be
a proper statement from that person addressing these issues. The apology
from 2019 was too short.

The point of my mail was that there are enough reasons to criticize this
decision, that there is really no need for conspiracies about cancel culture.

> > We as a project that believes that diversity and democracy
>
> You place your political opinion for members of the project, which even
> can't vote.  Is this a democracy?

If you don't think Debian is democratic, I urge you to read the Constitution
again [1]. Not every contributor can vote, yes, but I argue that this is normal.
I can't vacation in a different country and demand the right to vote. I'll first
have to become a citizen. Same with Debian, still democratic.

I'll have to back down on the diversity statement, haven't checked various
pages like the CoC [2], I don't see a direct statement on this. I guess
it's fine if someone is against it as long as there are no personal attacks.

> > Obviously, everyone is free to disagree and can sign the support letter.
> > There is no problem
>
> See above.  That's not a problem for you, yes.

I don't get it. It's a democratic vote. If the vote is in favor of this, then so
be it. If you disagree with the majority, then disagree. Nobody cares.
If you think it's that big of a problem for you, you can leave the project.
But I think you can still be part of a project, even if you don't 100% agree
with everything the project votes for.
Compare it to a country: say you voted against the government, and they
issued a statement you agree with. You don't need to leave the country.
Nobody assumes that you have voted for the government, just because
the majority in your country did.

Regards,
Stephan

PS: moved to debian-vote

[1] https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution
[2] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

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#2223

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-30 16:00 +0200
Message-ID<BYn4t-1zL-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2221
(CC'd to debian-vote due to
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00224.html)

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 02:53:16PM +0200, Stephan Lachnit wrote:
> Obviously the FSF can do whatever they want. They don't *have* to represent
> me. But that doesn't mean that I still felt that they did.

Maybe you should pay less attention to your "feelings" and more - to
the actual work for OSS?

Do you have objections e.g. against licenses, issued by FSF?  Such criticizm
could be logical.  Private opinions of the FSF leader (or a board
member) - not related with FOSS at all - are private opinions.

> Especially when that person was removed just two years ago, for
> whatever reason

There was no objective reasons and the person wasn't just "removed".  RMS
stepped down on his own decision (which was an obvious error).

> The reason I like free software is that nothing is behind closed doors.

Open debian-private@.  Or "this is different"?

> > There was no apology from RMS "critics", which e.g. improperly quote RMS
> > in the case of Minsky "defence" (the blame was itself is a lie).
> 
> Honestly I don't know enough about RMS to argue about that, and I also don't
> want to discuss it here. For me, the circumstances are reason enough to call
> the FSF out.

Maybe you should learn more about facts, before doing any decision for yourself?

> no need for conspiracies about cancel culture.

It's not a conspiracy theory.  It's that it is.

(And looking on the sponsors pages it seems to be clear "qui prodest".)

> If you don't think Debian is democratic, I urge you to read the Constitution
> again [1]. Not every contributor can vote, yes, but I argue that this is normal.
> I can't vacation in a different country and demand the right to vote.

People don't just do a vacation in the Debian.  They do work.  Actual
work: not just flaming in the maillists, but package software, fix bugs and
so on.

> I'll have to back down on the diversity statement, haven't checked various
> pages like the CoC [2], I don't see a direct statement on this. I guess
> it's fine if someone is against it as long as there are no personal attacks.

There is no option.  If the technical project is a part of some political
statement on my behalf - I should be part of this or leave.

> > > Obviously, everyone is free to disagree and can sign the support letter.
> > > There is no problem
> >
> > See above.  That's not a problem for you, yes.
> 
> I don't get it. It's a democratic vote. If the vote is in favor of this, then so
> be it. If you disagree with the majority, then disagree. Nobody cares.

The simple (not just one) problem is: I did (now, in past) some work for
the Debian - but I can't vote.  Yet, the project do political decisions
on my behalf.

Another problem is that people come in Debian to make a free operating
system, not for politics.  Next time you may vote to support bomb the North Korea.

> If you think it's that big of a problem for you, you can leave the project.

Sure, I already did
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00141.html).  Lets
see how this works...

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#2225

FromGard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org>
Date2021-03-30 16:20 +0200
Message-ID<BYnnQ-1VX-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2223

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> writes:

> The simple (not just one) problem is: I did (now, in past) some work for
> the Debian - but I can't vote.  Yet, the project do political decisions
> on my behalf.

Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country
where they're not a citizen? Does their inability to vote there bother
you? Is it a problem if that country makes political decisions that they
disagree with?

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#2228

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-30 16:40 +0200
Message-ID<BYnHb-22E-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2225
> Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country
> where they're not a citizen?

Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens...  Great idea, just
put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors.  This
is not transfobic, right?

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#2229

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-03-30 16:50 +0200
Message-ID<BYnQR-26M-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2228

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 17:31:43+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> > Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country
> > where they're not a citizen?
> 
> Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens...  Great idea, just
> put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors.  This
> is not transfobic, right?

Dear Sergey,

Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and
it's written to many places.

I wonder if you are feeling angry because you have a need for a space
where you can express ideas that seem uncompatible with what Debian
considers as fine?

If so, there are indeed plenty places more fit to your expectations, as
you stated in your departure email some days ago.

But I would like to tell that we acknowledge your pain and I would like
to express that I am personally sad that our expectations are inflicting
you such pain.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2238

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-30 18:40 +0200
Message-ID<BYpzj-3gW-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2229
> Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and
> it's written to many places.

For instance...

https://www.debian.org/intro/people

--->8-----
People: who we are, what we do
Developers and contributors

Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org).

The complete list of official Debian members can be found on nm.debian.org, where membership is managed. A broader list of Debian contributors can be found on contributors.debian.org.
----->8---

Can you see here a clear distinction: we do political statements for DD
only?

> I wonder if you are feeling angry

SJW destroyed yet another technical community.   Why I should be happy?

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#2239

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-03-30 19:20 +0200
Message-ID<BYqc1-3Mm-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2238

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 19:35:05+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> > Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and
> > it's written to many places.
> 
> For instance...
> 
> https://www.debian.org/intro/people
> 
> --->8-----
> People: who we are, what we do
> Developers and contributors
> 
> Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org).
> 
> The complete list of official Debian members can be found on nm.debian.org, where membership is managed. A broader list of Debian contributors can be found on contributors.debian.org.
> ----->8---
> 
> Can you see here a clear distinction: we do political statements for DD
> only?

Well, as you told me you had the time to learn about Debian ant its ways
and presumably you already know the answer to that.

> > I wonder if you are feeling angry
> 
> SJW destroyed yet another technical community.   Why I should be happy?

Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very
long time, and are actually the most technical part of that community?

Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here, this GR
will be a good reality check.

I wish you a rapid recovery: my experience with griefs is that they
are not beneficial on the long term.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2242

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-30 19:30 +0200
Message-ID<BYqlI-3PV-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2239
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 07:10:17PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very
> long time

Why not?

> the most technical part of that community?

That's your imagination, given you already ignored a decent part
of the community.

> Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here

Not true as well.

> this GR will be a good reality check.

The outcome doesn't matter, as I said.  The Debian project
do political decisions on behalf of it's contributors - that's
a reality.  This is now for something different than for a free OS...

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#2243

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-03-30 20:10 +0200
Message-ID<BYqYp-4kl-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2242

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 20:27:56+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 07:10:17PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very
> > long time
> 
> Why not?

I do not understand what you mean by "why not?".

> > the most technical part of that community?
> 
> That's your imagination, given you already ignored a decent part
> of the community.

The Debian Members are the most technical part of the Debian Community,
whether you like it or not, it's not my imagination. And these "SJW" you
refer to are Debian Members and henceforth mostly technical contributors
of the project.

> > Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here
> 
> Not true as well.

I think there is a misunderstanding of English. Either I failed to
express myself correctly or you are failing to understand.

Your opinion is not shared by all developers. Some may agree with your
opinion but obviously some don't.

> > this GR will be a good reality check.
> 
> The outcome doesn't matter, as I said.  The Debian project
> do political decisions on behalf of it's contributors - that's
> a reality.  This is now for something different than for a free OS...

Despite the many years of contributions you made to Debian, it seems to
me that your understanding of the way the Project works is at odd with the
reality, so I'll try one last time.

The Debian Project will maybe take a political position if the GR
outcomes allows it to do so, and if it does so it will take this
political position on behalf of itself, with the approval of a
"majority" of its voting member having expressed their opinion.

And, being a Free Software-made OS doesn't forbid it to be more than
that.

And using Debian won't mean anything more than before this GR, even if
the project were to tell the FSF that it won't work with it anymore and
considers RMS as someone who should be removed from there.

Because it is our right not to work with people we don't like.

As I said, I wish you the best in your future endeavours which will not
be around Debian, as far as you've stated previously.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2254

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-31 07:30 +0200
Message-ID<BYBAt-2YV-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2243
> I do not understand what you mean by "why not?".

Literally: "why not?"

> The Debian Members are the most technical part of the Debian Community

That's not true, given we have teams, that don't do a technical work at all.

> I think there is a misunderstanding

Yep.  I meant, same it true for your opinions.

> The Debian Project will maybe take a political position if the GR
> outcomes allows it to do so

So, next time in GR DD's may approve USA aggression in Venezuela?

> And, being a Free Software-made OS doesn't forbid it to be more than that.

Unfortunately, it's so.  Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into
something "more than that".  But have you fixed all bugs in the packages
you do support?)

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#2263

FromGard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org>
Date2021-03-31 12:00 +0200
Message-ID<BYFNL-5JG-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2254

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> writes:

> Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than
> that".  But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do support?)

Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general too?
"This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot
discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof, do
not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities.

 -- Gard
 

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#2266

FromPasha <pasha@bell01.com>
Date2021-03-31 16:50 +0200
Message-ID<BYKkp-lb-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2263
On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 11:59 +0200, Gard Spreemann wrote:
> 
> Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than
> > that".  But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do
> > support?)
> 
> Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general
> too?
> "This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot
> discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof,
> do
> not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities.
> 
>  -- Gard
>  

Libreboot explanation can be helpful here:

https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html

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#2267

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-03-31 17:10 +0200
Message-ID<BYKDL-HE-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2266

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Le mercredi 31 mars 2021 à 16:41:50+0200, Pasha a écrit :
> On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 11:59 +0200, Gard Spreemann wrote:
> > 
> > Sergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com> writes:
> > 
> > > Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than
> > > that".  But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do
> > > support?)
> > 
> > Is this how you behave when discussing political matters in general
> > too?
> > "This one important problem isn't fully resolved, therefore we cannot
> > discuss anything else"? Humans, and organizations consisting thereof,
> > do
> > not work on the basis of a totally ordered list of priorities.
> > 
> >  -- Gard
> >  
> 
> Libreboot explanation can be helpful here:
> 
> https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html

I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal", "accused of defending rape
in an Orwellian smear campaign" and "orchestrated by mainstream media".

Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist arguments are generally
sophisms and therefore not worth a dime of anyone's time.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2268

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-03-31 18:00 +0200
Message-ID<BYLqa-13i-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2267
> I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ...
> Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist

"I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c)

This trans is a wrong trans, isn't?

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#2269

FromSteve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org>
Date2021-03-31 18:10 +0200
Message-ID<BYLzP-1mg-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2268
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:52:49PM +0300, Sergey B Kirpichev wrote:
>> I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ...
>> Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist
>
>"I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c)
>
>This trans is a wrong trans, isn't?

Sergey: I don't know where you're going down this rabbit hole, but I
don't think it's helping the discussion at all. Please stop now.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK

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#2291

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-01 03:00 +0200
Message-ID<BYTQJ-6rv-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2269
> Please stop now.

Or?...

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#2301

FromSergey B Kirpichev <skirpichev@gmail.com>
Date2021-04-01 10:50 +0200
Message-ID<BZ1bz-2IU-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2291
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> > > Please stop now.
> > 
> > Or?...
> 
> Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists

I expected that.  "Free" society as it is.  Argements - do matter...

> but here I assume it was merely a request.

No, I'm sure.

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#2303

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-04-01 10:50 +0200
Message-ID<BZ1bz-2IU-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2291

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Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> > Please stop now.
> 
> Or?...

Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I
assume it was merely a request.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2312

FromSteve McIntyre <steve@einval.com>
Date2021-04-01 13:20 +0200
Message-ID<BZ3wJ-4iQ-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2303
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
>> > Please stop now.
>> 
>> Or?...
>
>Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I
>assume it was merely a request.

Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't
effective enough for some people.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess

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#2315

FromPierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org>
Date2021-04-01 14:00 +0200
Message-ID<BZ49s-4x5-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#2312

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Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 12:11:18+0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
> On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> >Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit :
> >> > Please stop now.
> >> 
> >> Or?...
> >
> >Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists, but here I
> >assume it was merely a request.
> 
> Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't
> effective enough for some people.

Some people tend to only see coercion when one asks them something
strongly.

I guess it's because they are keen on having conflicts and fights
instead of trying to remain on a civilized terrain.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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