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Buster without systemd?

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  Buster without systemd? Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 02:40 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-03-23 03:20 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2020-03-23 07:10 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:30 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-03-23 08:30 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Renato Gallo <renato@aster-lab.com> - 2020-03-23 09:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:40 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-03-23 09:50 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Renato Gallo <renato@aster-lab.com> - 2020-03-23 10:20 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-03-23 11:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2020-03-24 14:50 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-03-24 18:10 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 10:40 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-25 11:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Toni Mas <antomassol@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 00:20 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:30 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2020-03-23 14:00 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 15:30 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 15:50 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 16:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-23 16:40 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Tony van der Hoff <lists@vanderhoff.org> - 2020-03-23 17:50 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 18:10 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-23 18:30 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-23 18:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-24 14:10 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-23 18:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-03-23 20:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-23 21:30 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-23 22:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 00:10 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 11:30 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 12:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-24 12:30 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                            Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 15:20 +0100
                              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:10 +0100
                                Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 21:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 15:00 +0100
                            Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 18:20 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 22:20 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 10:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 11:00 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 11:40 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 12:30 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 14:10 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 18:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-03-24 14:20 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 14:40 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 15:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 03:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2020-03-24 19:30 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2020-03-23 18:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-23 19:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 10:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 20:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Klaus Singvogel <deb-user-ml@singvogel.net> - 2020-03-23 20:50 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 04:10 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Klaus Singvogel <klaus@singvogel.net> - 2020-03-24 17:40 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 00:40 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 01:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:30 +0100

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#220402

On Tuesday 24 March 2020 09:38:08 David Wright wrote:

> On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 06:42:44 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 24 March 2020 06:04:10 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > On Lu, 23 mar 20, 18:42:49, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > Thats a problem I don't have Greg. I went to a locally defined
> > > > hosts file 30+ years ago for all my private resolutions, and it
> > > > Just Works. Queries that go out on the wire for resolution are
> > > > relayed to the dns services of my provider. Resolution times for
> > > > external sites are sub 100 millisecond as a general rule. Thats
> > > > ALL handled by my router running dd-wrt which I think is using
> > > > dnsmasq.
> > > >
> > > > Yet every time I promote such a structure as a solution to
> > > > someones local network problems I am the idiot according to you
> > > > for not using dhcp globally. I don't enjoy being painted as an
> > > > a-hole for using something that Just Works.  So I've quit unless
> > > > you or someone like you pulls my chain.
> > >
> > > Static IPs and /etc/hosts works just fine here with
> > > systemd-networkd / systemd-resolved and Network Manager.
> > >
> > > > For the "vast majority of system's", as I install them, the
> > > > first thing I have to do is uninstall that stuff as it has yet
> > > > in the last 5 years, to use anything in the routing table but
> > > > the avahi supplied 169.xx.cc.nn address which is not allowed off
> > > > the premises by dd-wrt.
> > >
> > > [citation needed]
> >
> > My own posting about it in just the past year, but that posting was
> > only done after the problem was solved. As its a bit hard to post
> > from the machine that has a bogus routing setup. With dhcpd5 (I
> > think thats the right name) in the system it does no good to put the
> > correct route as a gateway statement in your /e/n/interfaces tree.
>
> Hm, you thought you'd probably fixed the problem IIRC while composing
> your post of Sat, 6 Jul 2019 21:38:10 -0400, after a couple of days of
> back-and-forth here, and after being asked to move the discussion here
> from a different list.
>
> > So that and avahi generally get nuked.
>
> Most of us avoid installing packages, rather than nuking them.

Installed by default, and the defaults are WRONG.

> Oh, but I almost forgot, it wasn't a Debian system in any case.
>
> > IMNSHO both were written to screw up networking,
> > their only possible reason-de-tere.
>
> Shame on you, sir.

Maybe so, but lots of this could be moved to debian IF debian could be so 
kind as to supply us with a buildable preempt-rt kernel that works as 
well as the default kernel does but many microseconds quicker. Raspbian 
does at least supply the src code although they do not otherwise support 
it. Either that, or help the RTAI guy keep up with the changeing 
landscape between cpu architectures.  That would be even better.

> Cheers,
> David.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#220333

Gene Heskett wrote:

> That along would ease the transition, and reduce the the systemd hate and
> discontent on ALL of these lists.  And justify the reason for the
> individual change. None of us like being kept in the dark.

Absolutely agree with this. It took me about an year to read myself in to
the systemd and understand the idea behind.

On the server and the firewall it is buster and still sysvinit. On the
desktop it is systemd - and this is where it belongs.
Meanwhile I must admit it does not cause troubles at all (or at least I do
not notice them, if there are such).

I think it is a very good choice to put it on the desktop. On the server I
do not know what it is good for ... perhaps depends on what kind of server
it is.

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#220354

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On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:09:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 23 March 2020 15:16:33 Joe wrote:

[...]

> > You might add 5a): Why?
> >
> > There's not exactly a burning need to compress text into illegibility
> > to save disc space [...]

> NONE!!!! Thats my Main objection to it [...]

And this is why we can't have nice things.

One basic rule of science and engineering should read "if you want
to criticise something, you better learn first how it works".

There are valid reasons for systemd's binary format. Space savings
is very far off the top of the list (probably it isn't on that list
at all).

Folks. This ain't twitter.

Cheers
-- tomás

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#220357

On Tuesday 24 March 2020 04:38:10 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:09:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 23 March 2020 15:16:33 Joe wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > You might add 5a): Why?
> > >
> > > There's not exactly a burning need to compress text into
> > > illegibility to save disc space [...]
> >
> > NONE!!!! Thats my Main objection to it [...]
>
> And this is why we can't have nice things.
>
> One basic rule of science and engineering should read "if you want
> to criticise something, you better learn first how it works".
>
Which I've not found the docs that would teach me that yet. If such 
actually exist, where do I find the top of that man tree?

> There are valid reasons for systemd's binary format. Space savings
> is very far off the top of the list (probably it isn't on that list
> at all).

Show me. Or show myself. Now I see there is actually such a manpage now. 
It didn't exist the last time I looked which was probably 3+ years ago 
after it came up at about jessie in my awareness. Its gonna take a while 
to absorb all that, the manpage starts out a bit "abstract" and will 
take a goodly number of re-reads to connect all the dots.  Lots of see 
also's to absorb.  And having become aware of the manpages for that, I 
withdraw my objections until such time as I do understand it.

> Folks. This ain't twitter.

No, its quite a bit more verbose.

Thanks for pulling my chain, Tomas, and makeing me discover that docs do 
indeed exist.
> Cheers
> -- tomás


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#220359

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On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 05:41:17AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 24 March 2020 04:38:10 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:09:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Monday 23 March 2020 15:16:33 Joe wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > You might add 5a): Why?
> > > >
> > > > There's not exactly a burning need to compress text into
> > > > illegibility to save disc space [...]
> > >
> > > NONE!!!! Thats my Main objection to it [...]
> >
> > And this is why we can't have nice things.
> >
> > One basic rule of science and engineering should read "if you want
> > to criticise something, you better learn first how it works".
> >
> Which I've not found the docs that would teach me that yet. If such 
> actually exist, where do I find the top of that man tree?

Come on, Gene. There's a lot of things (at least from my point
of view [0]) to criticize of systemd. Lack of documentation
isn't one. It comes with a very complete set of man pages [1].
Entering "systemd documentation" in your search engine of choice
yields as top results things like [2] or [3]. Start reading,
if that's your thirst.

Now you could argue that you haven't got the time to digest a
full new system if you already have one you feel comfy with;
this would be absolutely OK. But spreading half-truths (or
even lies) about that system you don't know (in this thread's
case: that systemd's binary log format is there to save disk
space) -- this is *not* OK.

> > Folks. This ain't twitter.
> 
> No, its quite a bit more verbose.

And hopefully more thoughtful. Hopefully.

> Thanks for pulling my chain, Tomas, and makeing me discover that docs do 
> indeed exist.

Here's n the hope of having made your life more interesting.
You make ours more interesting, too -- so it's giving back.

Cheers
[0] And no, no self-med. Henning: I'm still angry at you about
   that.
[1] I can't check, since I have no systemd installed. But have
   you tried "man -k systemd"?
[2] https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
[3] https://systemd.io/
-- tomás

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#220362

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On Ma, 24 mar 20, 11:14:47, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> [1] I can't check, since I have no systemd installed. But have
>    you tried "man -k systemd"?

On stretch with systemd-container installed:

$ apropos systemd | wc -l
180

The long name helps to pick out what you need from that.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#220365

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On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 12:49:20PM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 24 mar 20, 11:14:47, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [1] I can't check, since I have no systemd installed. But have
> >    you tried "man -k systemd"?
> 
> On stretch with systemd-container installed:
> 
> $ apropos systemd | wc -l
> 180

:-)

Yep, thanks. Something like that. Plenty of docs. And judging
by what I've seen, they are well-written.

> The long name helps to pick out what you need from that.

Thanks for checking, cheers
-- tomás

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#220369

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On Ma, 24 mar 20, 12:49:20, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Ma, 24 mar 20, 11:14:47, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [1] I can't check, since I have no systemd installed. But have
> >    you tried "man -k systemd"?
> 
> On stretch with systemd-container installed:

Correction: buster
 
> $ apropos systemd | wc -l
> 180
> 
> The long name helps to pick out what you need from that.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#220376

On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 20:57, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday 24 March 2020 04:38:10 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:09:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Monday 23 March 2020 15:16:33 Joe wrote:

> > One basic rule of science and engineering should read "if you want
> > to criticise something, you better learn first how it works".

> Which I've not found the docs that would teach me that yet. If such
> actually exist, where do I find the top of that man tree?

Maybe you missed this previous message:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/06/msg00277.html

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#220400

On Tuesday 24 March 2020 08:47:32 David wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 20:57, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> 
wrote:
> > On Tuesday 24 March 2020 04:38:10 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:09:14PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Monday 23 March 2020 15:16:33 Joe wrote:
> > >
> > > One basic rule of science and engineering should read "if you want
> > > to criticise something, you better learn first how it works".
> >
> > Which I've not found the docs that would teach me that yet. If such
> > actually exist, where do I find the top of that man tree?
>
> Maybe you missed this previous message:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/06/msg00277.html

I faintly recall it going by but the first screens text was TL;DR and 
looking at it again its still too long to get to the subject.  My fault 
of course...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#220377

On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 04:38:10 AM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> There are valid reasons for systemd's binary format. Space savings
> is very far off the top of the list (probably it isn't on that list
> at all).

Can you (or someone else) elaborate on that a little?

(Aside: I don't (yet -- or at least not intentionally) use systemd (well, or 
have any trouble / interaction with it -- I suppose it might have been 
installed on either my Jessie or Buster installs by default, and I haven't had 
to dig into those logs, so don't know if they're readable.)

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#220380

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On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 08:55:32AM -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 04:38:10 AM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > There are valid reasons for systemd's binary format. Space savings
> > is very far off the top of the list (probably it isn't on that list
> > at all).
> 
> Can you (or someone else) elaborate on that a little?

Strictly defined structure instead of parsing. Indexing, so you can
easily cross-reference logs. Support for cryptographic integrity
(think blockchain).

You might think these features are worth the complexity or they
aren't, but assuming the designers are idiots is wrong on more than
one level.

> (Aside: I don't (yet -- or at least not intentionally) use systemd (well, or 
> have any trouble / interaction with it -- I suppose it might have been 
> installed on either my Jessie or Buster installs by default, and I haven't had 
> to dig into those logs, so don't know if they're readable.)

I can't check right now, but AFAIK Debian's default config forwards the
binary logs to something logging in text, to be backwards compatible
(to oldish sysadmins, like me ;-)

Cheers
-- t
> 

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#220389

On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 14:19:34 (+0100), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 08:55:32AM -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 04:38:10 AM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > There are valid reasons for systemd's binary format. Space savings
> > > is very far off the top of the list (probably it isn't on that list
> > > at all).
> > 
> > Can you (or someone else) elaborate on that a little?
> 
> Strictly defined structure instead of parsing. Indexing, so you can
> easily cross-reference logs. Support for cryptographic integrity
> (think blockchain).
> 
> You might think these features are worth the complexity or they
> aren't, but assuming the designers are idiots is wrong on more than
> one level.
> 
> > (Aside: I don't (yet -- or at least not intentionally) use systemd (well, or 
> > have any trouble / interaction with it -- I suppose it might have been 
> > installed on either my Jessie or Buster installs by default, and I haven't had 
> > to dig into those logs, so don't know if they're readable.)
> 
> I can't check right now, but AFAIK Debian's default config forwards the
> binary logs to something logging in text, to be backwards compatible
> (to oldish sysadmins, like me ;-)

Yes, AFAIK that's what my logging is relying on, in which journalctl
only handles the current boot, and text logs store everything.
And AIUI in order to change over to all-binary logging, you have to
create the directory for it: /var/log/journal.

Which is why I don't understand the moaning about systemd's binary logs:
AFAICT, you asked for it, you got it. But what do I know; I just run
plain vanilla Debian.

Cheers,
David.

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#220344

On Mon 23 Mar 2020 at 19:16:33 (+0000), Joe wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:15:13 -0400 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> > 5) It does not write logs in human-readable files.  You need systemd's
> >    tools to read systemd's logs.  This makes post mortem diagnostics
> >    much more difficult.
> 
> You might add 5a): Why? 
> 
> There's not exactly a burning need to compress text into illegibility to
> save disc space these days. How many rational purposes are there to
> make logs readable only through systemd's own code?

All my buster systems log in the usual manner. Yes, I have some
incantations that I've copied from this list, but I don't normally
use them. eg:

$ journalctl -xe _SYSTEMD_UNIT=ssh.service | lessx
-- Logs begin at Mon 2020-03-23 08:11:58 CDT, end at Mon 2020-03-23 21:10:01 CDT. --
Mar 23 08:12:35 wren sshd[701]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22.
Mar 23 08:12:35 wren sshd[701]: Server listening on :: port 22.
$ grep 'Server listening' /var/log/auth.log
Mar 22 08:10:57 wren sshd[976]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22.
Mar 22 08:10:57 wren sshd[976]: Server listening on :: port 22.
Mar 23 08:12:35 wren sshd[701]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22.
Mar 23 08:12:35 wren sshd[701]: Server listening on :: port 22.
$ 

Looks the same to me.

Cheers,
David.

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#220393

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On Lu, 23 mar 20, 13:15:13, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> 4) It does way more than just replace /sbin/init.  It has components
>    that try to bring up network interfaces, implement DNS resolution,
>    implement NTP, implement cron-like functionality, and so on.  Many
>    people feel this is over-reaching.  (And to be fair, Debian disables
>    most of these optional subsystems by default.)

In buster many things are indeed disabled by default, however this will 
likely change for bullseye.

I believe the persistent journal is already enabled by default now (it 
used to forward everything to rsyslog before).

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#220407

On 2020-03-24 17:22 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> In buster many things are indeed disabled by default, however this will
> likely change for bullseye.
>
> I believe the persistent journal is already enabled by default now

Indeed, but this is easy to change and does not do much harm, except
taking up disk space.

> (it used to forward everything to rsyslog before).

If rsyslog is installed, it still does that.  Whether rsyslog will be
installed by default in bullseye is not yet clear, but on upgrades it
will certainly remain on the system.

Cheers,
       Sven

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#220324

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:31:33PM +0000, Tony van der Hoff wrote:
>
[...]
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the list,
> there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so afraid of
> systemd?
>

Who said "Jehovah"?


> I have  used it since the beginning of jessie, through stretch, and now
> buster, and have had no problems with it.
> 
> I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople seem to
> want to jump through hoops to avoid it.
> 

Maybe lack of self medication?
Duck...


-- 
Henning Follmann           | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com

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#220326

Henning Follmann wrote: 
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:31:33PM +0000, Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> > I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople seem to
> > want to jump through hoops to avoid it.
> > 
> 
> Maybe lack of self medication?
> Duck...

Not only was that not helpful, you knew it wasn't going to be
helpful. And you still posted it.

-dsr-

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#220355

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On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 01:15:28PM -0400, Henning Follmann wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:31:33PM +0000, Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> >
> [...]
> > I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the list,
> > there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so afraid of
> > systemd?
> 
> Who said "Jehovah"?

:-)

> > I have  used it since the beginning of jessie, through stretch, and now
> > buster, and have had no problems with it.
> > 
> > I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople seem to
> > want to jump through hoops to avoid it.
> 
> Maybe lack of self medication?

My reply to this one would definitely run afoul of list policy
(and against my own principles).

Luckily your creative imagination can make up for that.

non cheers
-- t

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#220327

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On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 12:48 PM Tony van der Hoff <lists@vanderhoff.org>
wrote:

>
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the
> list, there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so
> afraid of systemd?
>

I consider myself Neutral on the subject, actually wanting to educate
myself on, both systemd and its alternatives.  So, since I have multiple
Partitions, on multiple Systems, I have room to experiment with both.  So
my two, main Operating systems are Buster, and Devuan Ascii.  And I have
Development tools on both, to help my Education.

Mainly, my goal, right now is to use each correctly.

Also, I can answer questions on both frameworks.

Kenneth Parker

>

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