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Re: *nix

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  Re: *nix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@surfnaked.ca> - 2020-02-18 02:30 +0100
    Re: *nix "007@caiway.net" <007@caiway.net> - 2020-02-18 04:10 +0100
      Re: *nix David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-02-18 18:00 +0100
        Re: *nix "007@caiway.net" <007@caiway.net> - 2020-02-20 20:30 +0100
    Re: *nix deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-02-18 07:50 +0100
    Re: *nix David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-02-18 17:50 +0100
      Re: *nix Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-02-18 18:00 +0100
        Re: *nix David Anthony <david.fosdick.anthony@gmail.com> - 2020-02-19 02:20 +0100
          Re: *nix Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2020-02-19 09:20 +0100

#219238 — Re: *nix

References: <zAzEd-78R-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <zAGFH-31v-1@gated-at.bofh.it>

On 2020-02-17 at 06:00:01, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
wrote:

 > On Sun 16 Feb 2020 at 13:03:05 (-0800), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
 >
 >> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:10:01 +0100
 >> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
 >>
 >>> On Du, 16 feb 20, 09:36:16, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
 >>>
 >>>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 14:20:01 +0100
 >>>> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
 >>>>
 >>>>> Just use whatever works for you.
 >>>>
 >>>> If you can.  I really resent the increasing amount of coercion
 >>>> toward using GUIs (no keyboard equivalents for menus, etc.) that
 >>>> I'm seeing in modern software.
 >>>
 >>> Coercion is a strong word. It seems to me it's rather a form of
 >>> demand and supply.
 >>
 >> They're demanding you use what they supply.
 >
 > I can understand that on systems where you don't have a choice;
 > for example, Hulu on Roku, where they introduced a new interface
 > to much disapproval. Many TV interfaces now look as though they
 > were designed for mobile phones, and I suspect they are.
 >
 > But with Debian, you have choices. I prefer a GUI for browsing,
 > and obviously for graphics processing, but one or two other
 > programs bridge the gap, like gnumeric and xpdf, where I almost
 > entirely use the keyboard, but a few operations are easier with
 > a mouse, like copying text out of xpdf, or adjusting column widths
 > in gnumeric, for example.
 >
 > And I can't think of any software that has been deliberately
 > withdrawn because of a GUI replacement.

Not withdrawn, no.  But newer software tends to neglect the keyboard
in favour of pointy-clicky stuff.  Note that I'm not just talking
about Linux, which really isn't that bad.  On other OSes, however,
the situation is much worse.

 >>> With touchscreen technology becoming the standard even for laptops
 >>> and desktop monitors the demand for keyboard oriented interaction
 >>> decreases so the developers must create interfaces that are better
 >>> suited for tap / swipe.
 >>
 >> Fine.  But the keyboard should still be an option.  All I'm asking
 >> is that I be allowed to choose.  I'm not insisting that everyone
 >> use a keyboard, and likewise people should not insist that I
 >> _not_ use a keyboard.
 >
 > Perhaps you're not choosing your software with sufficient discernment.
 > I gravitate towards applications that have keyboard shortcuts/functions
 > and allow you to define more of them.
 >
 > Where that's not straightforward, then I try to coerce some other
 > application to do the job. So, for example, I define keys in my
 > window manager, fvwm, to do such things as control audio levels
 > (amixer), take screenshots (scrot) and capture movies (ffmpeg),
 > rotate the screen (xrandr), and even emulate Left and Right
 > Mouse Clicks, as well as all the usual window functions (raise,
 > lower, resize, move, etc).

I also tend to use programs that allow me to use the keyboard.
mplayer - and its successor, mpv - work great with the keyboard.
xv works great for displaying GIFs and JPEGs.  (At least older
ones - some newer JPEGs contain codes that xv can't handle.  At
that point I reluctantly fall back to ristretto.  No doubt there
are programs that would suit my needs better, but I haven't been
willing to take the time to find them.)

 > So my mouse gets very little exercise, and most of the time it's
 > just used to set which window has focus.

What, you don't use alt-tab?  :-)

 >>> The keyboard will soon be used exclusively for text entry and will
 >>> probably disappear as soon as we have something better,
 >>
 >> FSVO "better"
 >
 > Well, screens don't seem to have killed off keyboards, as people
 > furiously type away with their thumbs on faked ones.
 >
 >>> like voice dictation,
 >>
 >> Good luck if you have a cold.
 >
 > Or want any privacy. Or want to carry on a conversation at the same time.
 >
 >>> direct neural interface, whatever.
 >>
 >> Now _that_ might be interesting...
 >
 > Alarming. Now there would be justification for thought police.

Depends on how it's implemented.  It does seem less attractive now
than prior to, say, 1984.

 > BTW Because your email client seems unable to cope with threading,
 > I sometimes link posts manually with mutt's & key; which means
 > I look at your quoting attribution text (to link it the correct
 > parent). I find its text curious.
 >
 > For example, the post I'm replying to has
 >     On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:10:01 +0100 Andrei POPESCU 
<andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
 > but the email from Andrei POPESCU quoted is timestamped
 >     Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:50:52 +0200
 >
 > Apart from any timezone mixups (I prefer my attributions to be given
 > in the timezone of the post quoted), where does a time of ten minutes
 > and one second past the hour—past any hour—come from? I can't see a
 > time resembling that anywhere in the header.

OK, you caught me.  I actually read this list via Usenet, so if I want
to post I have to save the text, build a new message with it, and post
it from scratch.  On the plus side, slrn doesn't need a mouse.  :-)

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
  X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

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#219239

 
> I also tend to use programs that allow me to use the keyboard.
> mplayer - and its successor, mpv - work great with the keyboard.
> xv works great for displaying GIFs and JPEGs.  (At least older
> ones - some newer JPEGs contain codes that xv can't handle.  At
> that point I reluctantly fall back to ristretto.  No doubt there
> are programs that would suit my needs better, but I haven't been
> willing to take the time to find them.)

You might like gpicview.

I do.

sudo apt install gpicview
copy paste :-)

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#219247

On Tue 18 Feb 2020 at 03:48:49 (+0100), 007@caiway.net wrote:
>  
> > I also tend to use programs that allow me to use the keyboard.
> > mplayer - and its successor, mpv - work great with the keyboard.
> > xv works great for displaying GIFs and JPEGs.  (At least older
> > ones - some newer JPEGs contain codes that xv can't handle.  At
> > that point I reluctantly fall back to ristretto.  No doubt there
> > are programs that would suit my needs better, but I haven't been
> > willing to take the time to find them.)
> 
> You might like gpicview.

I don't see how gpicview is a keyboard-friendly program. For example,
I can't even see a way of navigating round a large image with the
cursor keys. The only way I found of stepping through a number of
files is to use the OpenFile dialog box as a thumbnail viewer.
What have I missed? (There seems to be almost no documentation.)

Despite its limitations (eg no movies, and zooming is crude), I find
xzgv a most satisfactory keyboard-friendly viewer.

Cheers,
David.

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#219284

> I don't see how gpicview is a keyboard-friendly program. For example,
> I can't even see a way of navigating round a large image with the
> cursor keys. The only way I found of stepping through a number of
> files is to use the OpenFile dialog box as a thumbnail viewer.
> What have I missed? (There seems to be almost no documentation.)

When you right click on an image you will see the list of shortcuts.
a way of navigating round a large image with the cursor keys I did not
find either.

> Despite its limitations (eg no movies, and zooming is crude), I find
> xzgv a most satisfactory keyboard-friendly viewer.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 

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#219240

Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Not withdrawn, no.  But newer software tends to neglect the keyboard
> in favour of pointy-clicky stuff.  Note that I'm not just talking
> about Linux, which really isn't that bad.  On other OSes, however,
> the situation is much worse.

The smartphone generation do not know how to write anyway :) (generalization
I know) but the situation is scary.

I also think that before may be things were overcomplicated and now are
oversimplified. 

However I stick to Trinity Desktop - it is sometimes complicated, but stable
and gives you the option to control much more.

regards

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#219246

On Mon 17 Feb 2020 at 17:06:01 (-0800), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-02-17 at 06:00:01, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sun 16 Feb 2020 at 13:03:05 (-0800), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:10:01 +0100 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Du, 16 feb 20, 09:36:16, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 14:20:01 +0100 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Just use whatever works for you.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can.  I really resent the increasing amount of coercion
> >>>> toward using GUIs (no keyboard equivalents for menus, etc.) that
> >>>> I'm seeing in modern software.
> >>>
> >>> Coercion is a strong word. It seems to me it's rather a form of
> >>> demand and supply.
> >>
> >> They're demanding you use what they supply.
> >
> > I can understand that on systems where you don't have a choice;
> > for example, Hulu on Roku, where they introduced a new interface
> > to much disapproval. Many TV interfaces now look as though they
> > were designed for mobile phones, and I suspect they are.
> >
> > But with Debian, you have choices. I prefer a GUI for browsing,
> > and obviously for graphics processing, but one or two other
> > programs bridge the gap, like gnumeric and xpdf, where I almost
> > entirely use the keyboard, but a few operations are easier with
> > a mouse, like copying text out of xpdf, or adjusting column widths
> > in gnumeric, for example.
> >
> > And I can't think of any software that has been deliberately
> > withdrawn because of a GUI replacement.
> 
> Not withdrawn, no.  But newer software tends to neglect the keyboard
> in favour of pointy-clicky stuff.  Note that I'm not just talking
> about Linux, which really isn't that bad.  On other OSes, however,
> the situation is much worse.

Sorry, I can't speak for other OSes. 

> >>> With touchscreen technology becoming the standard even for laptops
> >>> and desktop monitors the demand for keyboard oriented interaction
> >>> decreases so the developers must create interfaces that are better
> >>> suited for tap / swipe.
> >>
> >> Fine.  But the keyboard should still be an option.  All I'm asking
> >> is that I be allowed to choose.  I'm not insisting that everyone
> >> use a keyboard, and likewise people should not insist that I
> >> _not_ use a keyboard.
> >
> > Perhaps you're not choosing your software with sufficient discernment.
> > I gravitate towards applications that have keyboard shortcuts/functions
> > and allow you to define more of them.
> >
> > Where that's not straightforward, then I try to coerce some other
> > application to do the job. So, for example, I define keys in my
> > window manager, fvwm, to do such things as control audio levels
> > (amixer), take screenshots (scrot) and capture movies (ffmpeg),
> > rotate the screen (xrandr), and even emulate Left and Right
> > Mouse Clicks, as well as all the usual window functions (raise,
> > lower, resize, move, etc).
> 
> I also tend to use programs that allow me to use the keyboard.
> mplayer - and its successor, mpv - work great with the keyboard.
> xv works great for displaying GIFs and JPEGs.  (At least older
> ones - some newer JPEGs contain codes that xv can't handle.

In Debian I think that xv fell by the wayside between woody and sarge.
It seemed to get stuck at 3.10a. IIRC it was always in non-free
because of its licence, so I can only check via my   dpkg -l
listings. So I haven't used it for 15 years, moving on to xzgv.
xv is really an editor, isn't it?

> At
> that point I reluctantly fall back to ristretto.  No doubt there
> are programs that would suit my needs better, but I haven't been
> willing to take the time to find them.)
> 
> > So my mouse gets very little exercise, and most of the time it's
> > just used to set which window has focus.
> 
> What, you don't use alt-tab?  :-)

No, because that's not the way I lay things out in fvwm.
(There's a hint in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/01/msg00478.html)
When windows overlap each other, Raise and Lower usually suffice.
Otherwise I nudge the mouse or finger the touchpad.
(More important to me than avoiding the mouse at all costs is
reducing the occasions on which it has to be used with any
precision, because that's what can cause mobility issues.)

I don't know which WM you use, but I think it's true that knowing
someone uses fvwm gives almost no indication of what their screen
looks like or how they work. It's more of a toolkit than an
application, which might explain why its man page runs to over 7000
lines. I suspect most people who start using it have grabbed someone
else's configuration file off the web and then modified it. It would
be a steep learning curve to start writing one from scratch.

Cheers,
David.

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#219248

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:39:29AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> In Debian I think that xv fell by the wayside between woody and sarge.
> It seemed to get stuck at 3.10a. IIRC it was always in non-free
> because of its licence, so I can only check via my   dpkg -l
> listings. So I haven't used it for 15 years, moving on to xzgv.
> xv is really an editor, isn't it?

It was a pretty ubiquitous image display/modification tool in
previous decades.  So much so, that I still use it today -- of course,
not from an official Debian package, as those stopped being produced
ages ago.  But it's still possible to compile it, with a bit of extra
flaming-hoop-jumping.

wooledg:~$ dpkg -s xv | grep Depends
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), libjpeg62-turbo (>= 1.3.1), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.13-4), libtiff5 (>= 4.0.3), libx11-6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)

The flaming-est hoop here is the PNG library, because someone decided
that the PNG library should completely break compatibility, not just at
the ABI level, but at the API level, a few years ago.

You can get libpng12* packages from older Debian releases.  Some assembly
required.

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#219249

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I have been trying to install Debian (and Mint) on an HP Pavilion Desktop.
The installation goes smoothly until "Grub" begins to install.  At that
point the entire system freezes.  I have tried the install multiple times
with the same result each time.  Has anyone else had a similar problem and
if so what did you do to work around it?  Thanks for any help you can
provide.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 9:53 AM Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:39:29AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > In Debian I think that xv fell by the wayside between woody and sarge.
> > It seemed to get stuck at 3.10a. IIRC it was always in non-free
> > because of its licence, so I can only check via my   dpkg -l
> > listings. So I haven't used it for 15 years, moving on to xzgv.
> > xv is really an editor, isn't it?
>
> It was a pretty ubiquitous image display/modification tool in
> previous decades.  So much so, that I still use it today -- of course,
> not from an official Debian package, as those stopped being produced
> ages ago.  But it's still possible to compile it, with a bit of extra
> flaming-hoop-jumping.
>
> wooledg:~$ dpkg -s xv | grep Depends
> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), libjpeg62-turbo (>= 1.3.1), libpng12-0 (>=
> 1.2.13-4), libtiff5 (>= 4.0.3), libx11-6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
>
> The flaming-est hoop here is the PNG library, because someone decided
> that the PNG library should completely break compatibility, not just at
> the ABI level, but at the API level, a few years ago.
>
> You can get libpng12* packages from older Debian releases.  Some assembly
> required.
>
>

-- 
*David Anthony*

Church Service Missionary
33 Centerville Commons Way
Centerville, UT 84014
Cell-801-360-4 <801-709-9430>950

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#219259

On 2020-02-19, David Anthony <david.fosdick.anthony@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have been trying to install Debian (and Mint) on an HP Pavilion Desktop.
> The installation goes smoothly until "Grub" begins to install.  At that
> point the entire system freezes.  I have tried the install multiple times
> with the same result each time.  Has anyone else had a similar problem and
> if so what did you do to work around it?  Thanks for any help you can
> provide.
>

Some HP grub-efi-bios-related workarounds in this thread:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Desktop-Wireless-and-Networking/Grub-problem/td-p/5949710

-- 
"J'ai pour me guérir du jugement des autres toute la distance qui me sépare de
moi." Antonin Artaud

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