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A followup on github discussion

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  A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 15:00 +0200
    Re: A followup on github discussion Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-26 15:20 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 17:50 +0200
        Re: A followup on github discussion Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-26 18:00 +0200
          Re: A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 18:10 +0200
            Re: A followup on github discussion Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2019-07-26 19:40 +0200
            Re: A followup on github discussion John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-07-27 05:30 +0200
              Re: A followup on github discussion Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-07-27 08:40 +0200
                Re: A followup on github discussion John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-07-27 16:10 +0200
                  Re: A followup on github discussion Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-27 18:30 +0200
                    Re: A followup on github discussion John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-07-27 19:30 +0200
                      Re: A followup on github discussion Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-07-27 20:00 +0200
                        Re: A followup on github discussion John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2019-07-27 20:20 +0200
                      Re: A followup on github discussion Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-07-28 02:00 +0200
                Re: A followup on github discussion David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-07-27 17:00 +0200
          Re: A followup on github discussion Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2019-07-26 18:10 +0200
            Re: A followup on github discussion Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-26 18:30 +0200
              Re: A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 19:10 +0200
              Re: A followup on github discussion Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-07-26 19:20 +0200
                Re: A followup on github discussion Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2019-07-26 21:20 +0200
        Re: A followup on github discussion Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-07-26 18:40 +0200
    Re: A followup on github discussion Steve Kemp <steve@steve.org.uk> - 2019-07-26 15:20 +0200
    Re: A followup on github discussion Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2019-07-26 15:20 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-07-26 15:30 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion "Stephen P. Molnar" <s.molnar@sbcglobal.net> - 2019-07-26 15:40 +0200
        Re: A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 17:50 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-26 17:50 +0200
        Re: A followup on github discussion Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-07-26 19:00 +0200
    Re: A followup on github discussion Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2019-07-26 16:30 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-07-26 16:50 +0200
    Re: A followup on github discussion Shahryar Afifi <shahryarafifi@yahoo.com> - 2019-07-28 00:20 +0200
      Re: A followup on github discussion deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-07-28 12:10 +0200

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#211773

On Friday 26 July 2019 11:39:51 Reco wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 09:12:48AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 03:53:50PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > 	So, dear list,
> > >
> > > this is just a quick followup on discrimination practices employed
> > > by GitHub.
> > > Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted
> > > access to users who live in countries that have US sanctions
> > > applied - [1].
> > >
> > > Therefore, if somebody is still had any doubts that GitHub does
> > > not respect software freedoms - leave any hope. GitHub is
> > > unsuitable for hosting free software.
> >
> > Well, that's a very nice slant you put on the issue.  As a public
> > company in the US, GitHub is expected to respect US law.
>
> And last time I've checked, so is Software In Public Interest.
>
> > Certainly there are instances where civil disobedience is called
> > for, but violating export regulations is perhaps not the best
> > choice.
>
> And the same logic can be applied to SPI and therefore Debian Project.
> Or, maybe not?
>
> > Also, the article which you linked explicitly states that they are
> > working with regulators to help them understand that GitHub
> > providing services in sanctioned markets actually *supports* the US
> > government's foreign policy objectives of free flow of information
> > and free speech.
>
> And it also mentions, quoting:
>
> Users are responsible for ensuring that the content they develop and
> share on GitHub.com complies with the U.S. export control laws,
> including the EAR and the U.S. International Traffic in Arms
> Regulations (ITAR).
>
FYI, that depends on whose ox is being gored. There was a time when 
linuxcnc, then called emc, which could even then control a 9 active axis 
milling machine, to carve any curve, was verboten to export because of 
ITAR.  No one else had the machinery to carve quiet submarine screws, so 
our coastal hydrophone network could, just by the sound of the subs 
screws identify which Russian sub by name was backing away from the 
docks in the north sea.

But Hitachi America shipped a 5 axis milling machine, with emc installed, 
to someplace in the far east. And all of a sudden in terms of the cold 
war clock. everyone had silent screws. So that noticeably tipped the 
power balance in the cold war. We eventually shut down the hydrophone 
system since a Russian sub had to get within a few miles of our shores, 
by which time our satellites had it spotted and tracked it. But we did 
send the message by sitting down on one of theirs long enough the 
commander got on the horn and said his air was really bad and he was 
losing men.  So we backed off, but we have air recyclers on our nuke 
subs so we only surfaced to let them know they had well and truly lost 
that battle.  That sub commander probably went home to a firing squad.  
That was long before Gorbachev. Submariners being a different breed of 
people, I heard they shook hands and saluted each other before they 
parted. But no pix, so that could be story embellishment.

As far as I know, Hitachi America was shamed but never charged, not even 
a slap on the wrist, but since the cat was truly out of the bag, emc was 
removed from the ITAR list.  Now its world wide and still showing other 
controller makers how its done.

> Reco

Yeah, I'm an old fart, born in 1934, I lived thru that era, even helped 
build some of our ICBM's installed out in the middle of western S.D. 
Sometimes so close to a 50 kiloton sitting on top of a Titan One I could 
lean on it while I talked to the guards.

This is way offtopic, but I was not the first to mention ITAR, so please 
don't start a  flame war.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#211758

> Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].

  Shockingly companies often have to obey the laws which apply in the
 country in which they are based.

  While it is definitely unfortunate for affected users, it is hard
 to spin this as the company being anti-anything.


Steve
-- 
https://www.steve.org.uk/

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#211759

Reco (12019-07-26):
> Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].

You mean that GitHub respects the laws of the country where it operates?
How shocking!

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#211760

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 02:57:38PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> Reco (12019-07-26):
> > Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> > to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
> 
> You mean that GitHub respects the laws of the country where it operates?
> How shocking!

To be fair, Reco's point still holds. Perhaps Github runs counter the
free software principles because of US export restrictions, but the
end result is the same.

Reco didn't say "Microsoft is evil", just "better not host free software
on Github if you care about free", and well, I do see his point.

No need to rush "in defense" of Microsoft.

Cheers
-- t

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#211761

On 07/26/2019 08:57 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> Reco (12019-07-26):
>> Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
>> to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
> You mean that GitHub respects the laws of the country where it operates?
> How shocking!
>
> Regards,
>
This has all the makings of a flame war.

-- 
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.            Life is a fuzzy set
http://www.Molecular-Modeling.net   Multivariate and stochastic
614.312.7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

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#211765

	Hi.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 09:33:10AM -0400, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
> On 07/26/2019 08:57 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> > Reco (12019-07-26):
> > > Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> > > to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
> > You mean that GitHub respects the laws of the country where it operates?
> > How shocking!
> > 
> This has all the makings of a flame war.

It's Friday. I'm just upholding a custom.

Reco

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#211764

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 02:57:38PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> Reco (12019-07-26):
> > Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> > to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
> 
> You mean that GitHub respects the laws of the country where it operates?
> How shocking!

What I said that by complying with said laws, GitHub violates first
software freedom. No more, no less.

It may be shocking, but that's the bare truth.

Reco

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#211775

On 07/26/2019 10:44 AM, Reco wrote:
> [grossly *MASSIVE* snip ;]
> It may be shocking, but that's the bare truth.
> 

"barren" perhaps.
Owl ducks fer cover ;/

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#211762

Intellectual Freedom.
Not Available in the United States of America (not a new thing)

On 7/26/19 5:53 AM, Reco wrote:
> 	So, dear list,
>
> this is just a quick followup on discrimination practices employed by
> GitHub.
> Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted access
> to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
>
> Therefore, if somebody is still had any doubts that GitHub does not
> respect software freedoms - leave any hope. GitHub is unsuitable for
> hosting free software.
>
> Reco
>
> [1] https://help.github.com/en/articles/github-and-trade-controls
>
>
>

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#211763

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 07:09:39AM -0700, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> Intellectual Freedom.
> Not Available in the United States of America (not a new thing)

Wherever you are, superiority complex isn't adequate.  There's more
than enough work to do at home if you care for Intellectual Freedom.

There are enough great people in the USA at work on this, and there
always have been.

I for one (I'm somewhere in EU) are infinitely grateful to the USA
for having given shelter to the likes of Hannah Arendt at the times
lights went out over here.

Cheers
-- t

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#211808

It seems that, here, we have philosophical/moral problem, rather than
social/international or cultural.
It is difficult to enter the conservation and not commit any fallacies.
We all engage in discussions on a bias ground.
the word "discrimination" carries a big load of euphemistic
attribution.
It is natural and normal that any nation would protect its property of
any kind. However, as a linux user--that follows linux philosophy-- we
are all part of a utopian seeking society (that should include all
humanity). Just a glance of the expansion of linux kernel would justify
the possibilities. why is it everywhere? And serving many devices...





On Fri, 2019-07-26 at 15:53 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 	So, dear list,
> 
> this is just a quick followup on discrimination practices employed by
> GitHub.
> Today it was brought to my attention that GitHub has restricted
> access
> to users who live in countries that have US sanctions applied - [1].
> 
> Therefore, if somebody is still had any doubts that GitHub does not
> respect software freedoms - leave any hope. GitHub is unsuitable for
> hosting free software.
> 
> Reco
> 
> [1] https://help.github.com/en/articles/github-and-trade-controls
> 

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#211818

Shahryar Afifi wrote:

> It is natural and normal that any nation would protect its property of
> any kind.

Germany 2015 was obviously an exception to that :D ... and the Germans
elected her once again - OMG, OMG! Consequently it is not a nation anymore,
or it is a nation in a big confusion?!
Just joking :) I like your argumentation. I don't like her or the people
voting for her ;-)

Respect and regards

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