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column - how to get it updated?

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  column - how to get it updated? Andrew Punnett <andrew.punnett@gmail.com> - 2019-07-25 05:50 +0200
    Re: column - how to get it updated? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-07-25 06:10 +0200
      Re: column - how to get it updated? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-07-25 14:30 +0200
    Re: column - how to get it updated? Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-07-25 06:50 +0200
      Re: column - how to get it updated? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2019-07-26 05:00 +0200
        Re: column - how to get it updated? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-07-26 06:30 +0200
          Re: column - how to get it updated? Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-07-26 07:30 +0200
          Re: column - how to get it updated? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2019-07-26 14:30 +0200
            Re: column - how to get it updated? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-07-26 18:40 +0200
        Re: column - how to get it updated? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-26 10:00 +0200
          Re: column - how to get it updated? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-07-26 14:40 +0200
            Re: column - how to get it updated? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-26 15:00 +0200

#211721 — column - how to get it updated?

Hi,

Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However, the
`column` command included in the util-linux package from the Linux
Kernel Organisation is much more useful.

There is a bug report about this at
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which ends
with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:

"Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should change
to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done on the
util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."

How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?

Cheers,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Punnett <andrew.punnett@gmail.com>

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#211722

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On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 11:45 PM Andrew Punnett <andrew.punnett@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However, the
> `column` command included in the util-linux package from the Linux
> Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
>
> There is a bug report about this at
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which ends
> with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:
>
> "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should change
> to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done on the
> util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
>

In my "Development Days", I would have gotten the Source for the newer
version, Compile it in my own System, copy the result into /usr/local/bin
and put it before /usr/bin.

Do people still do Workarounds like this?

Are there ways to, then "Package it", and submit it back to Debian?  Based
on the above Bug Report, would that get you anywhere?  Thank you.


> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
>

Do they have an Email List?

Kenneth Parker

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#211726

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:06:54AM -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> In my "Development Days", I would have gotten the Source for the newer
> version, Compile it in my own System, copy the result into /usr/local/bin
> and put it before /usr/bin.
> 
> Do people still do Workarounds like this?

Yes.  In fact, that's precisely why /usr/local/bin is supposed to
be in your $PATH before /usr/bin or /bin.  (And $HOME/bin before
/usr/local/bin.)

The sysadmin is allowed to override the vendor, and the user is allowed
to override the sysadmin's defaults.

That's how Unix is designed.

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#211723

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On 25/07/19 3:26 PM, Andrew Punnett wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However, the
> `column` command included in the util-linux package from the Linux
> Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
> 
> There is a bug report about this at
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which ends
> with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:
> 
> "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should change
> to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done on the
> util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
> 
> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?

Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?

Richard

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#211739

On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Richard Hector wrote:

> On 25/07/19 3:26 PM, Andrew Punnett wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However,
>> the `column` command included in the util-linux package from the
>> Linux Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
>>
>> There is a bug report about this at
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which
>> ends with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:

[SNIPPED, in order to insert immediately-prior context from bugreport]

"If you want the bsdutils to provide (util-linux version of) the tools
you need to convince the bsdmainutils maintainers that they should
stop shipping theirs, since we can't have file collisions between
different packages (ie. debian policy forbids two different packages
to provide the same file)."

>> "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should
>> change to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done
>> on the util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
>>
>> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
>> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
>
> Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?

I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
alternatives system is meant to solve.

-- 
  The day will come              |  Last words, August Spies (1855--1887).
  When our silence will be       |  Hanged, by the U.S. state of Illinois,
  More powerful than             |  alongside fellow journalists
  The voices you strangle today  |  Adolf Fischer and Albert Parsons.

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#211742

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On Fri 26 Jul 2019 at 02:57:40 (+0000), davidson wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Richard Hector wrote:
> 
> > On 25/07/19 3:26 PM, Andrew Punnett wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However,
> > > the `column` command included in the util-linux package from the
> > > Linux Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
> > > 
> > > There is a bug report about this at
> > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which
> > > ends with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:
> 
> [SNIPPED, in order to insert immediately-prior context from bugreport]
> 
> "If you want the bsdutils to provide (util-linux version of) the tools
> you need to convince the bsdmainutils maintainers that they should
> stop shipping theirs, since we can't have file collisions between
> different packages (ie. debian policy forbids two different packages
> to provide the same file)."
> 
> > > "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should
> > > change to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done
> > > on the util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
> > > 
> > > How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
> > > allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
> > 
> > Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?
> 
> I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
> alternatives system is meant to solve.

That's news to me. I was under the impression that /etc/alternatives
is the mechanism by which "rename" can be used for two different
commands, prename and file-rename, which would otherwise collide
with the name /usr/bin/rename.

(I realise that, as of stretch, one of these versions of rename becomes
deprecated and will be withdrawn in future, but it's the example that
comes immediately to mind because they've been around for many years.)

$ rename
Usage:
    rename [ -h|-m|-V ] [ -v ] [ -n ] [ -f ] [ -e|-E perlexpr]*|perlexpr
    [ files ]

$ rename # having just removed package rename
Deprecated program in use: rename as shipped with the Debian perl
package will be removed after the release of stretch. Please install
the separate 'rename' package which will provide the same command.

Usage: rename [-v] [-n] [-f] perlexpr [filenames]
$ 

Cheers,
David.

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#211743

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David Wright [2019-07-25T23:21:06-05] wrote:

> I was under the impression that /etc/alternatives is the mechanism by
> which "rename" can be used for two different commands, prename and
> file-rename, which would otherwise collide with the name
> /usr/bin/rename.

If several packages provide different version of the same basic program
or other file then alternatives system can be used.

https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg-alternatives.html

I think bsdmainutils and util-linux packages could both rename the
conflicting files and use alternatives system to provide option for
common file /usr/bin/column (and man pages).

-- 
///  OpenPGP key: 4E1055DC84E9DFF613D78557719D69D324539450
//  https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=tlikonen@iki.fi
/  https://keybase.io/tlikonen  https://github.com/tlikonen

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#211752

On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 26 Jul 2019 at 02:57:40 (+0000), davidson wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Richard Hector wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/07/19 3:26 PM, Andrew Punnett wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However,
>>>> the `column` command included in the util-linux package from the
>>>> Linux Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
>>>>
>>>> There is a bug report about this at
>>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which
>>>> ends with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:
>>
>> [SNIPPED, in order to insert immediately-prior context from bugreport]
>>
>> "If you want the bsdutils to provide (util-linux version of) the tools
>> you need to convince the bsdmainutils maintainers that they should
>> stop shipping theirs, since we can't have file collisions between
>> different packages (ie. debian policy forbids two different packages
>> to provide the same file)."
>>
>>>> "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should
>>>> change to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done
>>>> on the util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
>>>>
>>>> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
>>>> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
>>>
>>> Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?
>>
>> I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
>> alternatives system is meant to solve.
>
> That's news to me. I was under the impression that /etc/alternatives
> is the mechanism by which "rename" can be used for two different
> commands, prename and file-rename, which would otherwise collide
> with the name /usr/bin/rename.

TL;DNR: You might be able to call any cat in the neigborhood with
"Here, kitty kitty." That doesn't make "Kitty" its name.

I'll try to elaborate as briefly as I can (though I lack the Curt's
flair for brevity).

I think of the debian alternatives system like a sort of Yellow Pages,
where the local administrator gets to determine the relative
prominence of entries under each generic service/accomodation.

So if my needs are merely generic, I can order {a pizza, a cab,...}
anywhere, even in an unfamiliar town. The debian alternatives system
curates a collection of "generic names"* (like /usr/bin/Pizzeria in my
vivid imagination, or /usr/bin/rename in your chosen example) to
support this, to represent *sorts* of services/accomodations
generically desired, and provides conventions so that merely knowing
the type of thing you want is sufficient to obtain some instance of it
(as long as some instance is installed).

It doesn't mean all the pizza vendors can finally all name their
respective pizzerias "Pizzeria," free of confusion. ("Hooray, someone
invented Yellow Pages! Let's name all the things 'Hodor!'") Likewise,
is it not fortunate that the two different commands in your
illustration, named "prename" and "file-rename", do have *different*
names?

That is all.

[*] In the parlance of update-alternatives(1).

>
> (I realise that, as of stretch, one of these versions of rename becomes
> deprecated and will be withdrawn in future, but it's the example that
> comes immediately to mind because they've been around for many years.)
>
> $ rename
> Usage:
>    rename [ -h|-m|-V ] [ -v ] [ -n ] [ -f ] [ -e|-E perlexpr]*|perlexpr
>    [ files ]
>
> $ rename # having just removed package rename
> Deprecated program in use: rename as shipped with the Debian perl
> package will be removed after the release of stretch. Please install
> the separate 'rename' package which will provide the same command.
>
> Usage: rename [-v] [-n] [-f] perlexpr [filenames]
> $
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>

-- 
  The day will come              |  Last words, August Spies (1855--1887).
  When our silence will be       |  Hanged, by the U.S. state of Illinois,
  More powerful than             |  alongside fellow journalists
  The voices you strangle today  |  Adolf Fischer and Albert Parsons.

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#211772

On Fri 26 Jul 2019 at 12:39:38 (+0000), davidson wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 26 Jul 2019 at 02:57:40 (+0000), davidson wrote:
> > > On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Richard Hector wrote:
> > > > On 25/07/19 3:26 PM, Andrew Punnett wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Debian currently uses the `column` command from FreeBSD. However,
> > > > > the `column` command included in the util-linux package from the
> > > > > Linux Kernel Organisation is much more useful.
> > > > > 
> > > > > There is a bug report about this at
> > > > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908975, which
> > > > > ends with the Debian util-linux package maintainer stating:
> > > 
> > > [SNIPPED, in order to insert immediately-prior context from bugreport]
> > > 
> > > "If you want the bsdutils to provide (util-linux version of) the tools
> > > you need to convince the bsdmainutils maintainers that they should
> > > stop shipping theirs, since we can't have file collisions between
> > > different packages (ie. debian policy forbids two different packages
> > > to provide the same file)."
> > > 
> > > > > "Until you've convinced the bsdmainutils maintainers we should
> > > > > change to the util-linux versions, there's nothing that can be done
> > > > > on the util-linux/bsdutils side - thus the wontfix tag."
> > > > > 
> > > > > How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
> > > > > allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
> > > > 
> > > > Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?
> > > 
> > > I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
> > > alternatives system is meant to solve.
> > 
> > That's news to me. I was under the impression that /etc/alternatives
> > is the mechanism by which "rename" can be used for two different
> > commands, prename and file-rename, which would otherwise collide
> > with the name /usr/bin/rename.
> 
> TL;DNR: You might be able to call any cat in the neigborhood with
> "Here, kitty kitty." That doesn't make "Kitty" its name.

We're not talking about any old stray cats, but two that were both
originally called Kitty.

> I'll try to elaborate as briefly as I can (though I lack the Curt's
> flair for brevity).

[cut for brevity]

> Likewise,
> is it not fortunate that the two different commands in your
> illustration, named "prename" and "file-rename", do have *different*
> names?

Nothing to do with good fortune. The util-linux version of rename,
now preferred, and called file-rename, has been distributed on linux
for years; just not by Debian, and for good reasons: in its early
days it was inferior. I see a wishlist entry back in 2004.

People coming to Debian were often surprised by its absence. The
version of rename that was bundled with Perl was superior back
then, but unexpected as *the* /usr/bin/rename for such people.

A couple of references to rename's changes of name:

For prename:

   "That being said, Policy does provide ways around such conflicts,
   the most appropriate in this case being alternatives.

   "I've made a note re-visit this issue once sarge is released, and
   to add an alternative for /usr/bin/rename if the util-linux
   maintainer is interested in doing similar." [#304705]

For file-rename:

  "* Install rename as file-rename and register it as an alternative
     for rename (see #735134)" [rename's changelog]

Cheers,
David.

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#211746

On 2019-07-26, davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
>>> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
>>
>> Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?
>
> I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
> alternatives system is meant to solve.
>

It seems to me /etc/alternatives provides a mechanism by which you can
choose a default among two or more programs with similar functions.

The problem here appears to be that both packages provide a utility that
shares the same name (column), which violates Debian policy (according
to Andreas Henriksson in the referenced bug report).

That this stumbling block presents an insurmountable challenge to the
development community defies the intellectual capacities of your
admittedly naive correspondent.



-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

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#211753

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 07:58:13AM -0000, Curt wrote:
> On 2019-07-26, davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> How can we persuade the Debian bsdmainutils package maintainers to
> >>> allow the Linux version of column to be shipped?
> >>
> >> Can't they all get along by using /etc/alternatives?
> >
> > I don't think file collisions are the kind of thing the debian
> > alternatives system is meant to solve.
> >
> 
> It seems to me /etc/alternatives provides a mechanism by which you can
> choose a default among two or more programs with similar functions.
> 
> The problem here appears to be that both packages provide a utility that
> shares the same name (column), which violates Debian policy (according
> to Andreas Henriksson in the referenced bug report).
> 
> That this stumbling block presents an insurmountable challenge to the
> development community defies the intellectual capacities of your
> admittedly naive correspondent.

It's not insurmountable.  The package maintainers simply have to work
together and decide how to handle the situation.  If both of them rename
their "column" commands, then the alternatives system can be employed.

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#211755

On 2019-07-26, Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:
>> 
>> That this stumbling block presents an insurmountable challenge to the
>> development community defies the intellectual capacities of your
>> admittedly naive correspondent.
>
> It's not insurmountable.  The package maintainers simply have to work
> together and decide how to handle the situation.  If both of them rename
> their "column" commands, then the alternatives system can be employed.
>

Teemu Likonen has just now suggested, in an addendum to bug # 908975,
"/usr/bin/bcolumn (bsdmainutils) and /usr/bin/lcolumn (linux-util)," a
fair and dignified solution to the conflict which should satisfy all
parties (though you never know, do you), and one perfectly amenable to
the /etc/alternatives system.


-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

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