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Groups > linux.debian.user > #210497 > unrolled thread

Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?

Started byRichard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net>
First post2019-06-30 14:40 +0200
Last post2019-07-06 12:50 +0200
Articles 7 on this page of 47 — 19 participants

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  Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-06-30 14:40 +0200
    Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-06-30 15:50 +0200
      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2019-06-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2019-06-30 17:50 +0200
        Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-06-30 21:20 +0200
          Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2019-07-01 00:50 +0200
          Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-07-01 01:00 +0200
          Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-01 19:20 +0200
            Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-01 19:40 +0200
              Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-01 21:20 +0200
                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-01 22:10 +0200
          Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2019-07-01 20:50 +0200
            Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-07-02 13:40 +0200
              Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-02 14:10 +0200
                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-07-02 17:20 +0200
                  Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-07-02 17:30 +0200
                    Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-02 17:40 +0200
                      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-02 19:50 +0200
                      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-02 19:50 +0200
                      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mattcrews@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-02 20:00 +0200
                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com> - 2019-07-02 23:00 +0200
                  Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-03 05:10 +0200
                    Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-07-03 08:30 +0200
                      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-03 10:20 +0200
                        Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-07-03 12:00 +0200
                    Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-07-03 14:40 +0200
                    Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-03 19:30 +0200
                      Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 19:50 +0200
                        Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-03 20:10 +0200
                          Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-07-03 20:20 +0200
                            Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-04 17:30 +0200
                              Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-07-04 19:10 +0200
                                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-04 20:00 +0200
                                  Attributing (was: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-06 17:20 +0200
                                    Re: Attributing (was: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-06 18:10 +0200
                                      Re: Attributing Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-07-06 18:30 +0200
                                        Re: Attributing Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2019-07-06 21:00 +0200
                                    Re: Attributing (was: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-07-06 18:30 +0200
                      Oldest Usable x86 CPU for Stretch (Was: Choice of VMs under i386  Stretch?) Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-04 01:50 +0200
                        Re: Oldest Usable x86 CPU for Stretch (Was: Choice of VMs under i386  Stretch?) andreimpopescu@gmail.com - 2019-07-04 08:40 +0200
              Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
              Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2019-07-02 23:10 +0200
                Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-07-04 16:00 +0200
                  Old computers (Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-07-04 16:40 +0200
                  Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2019-07-04 17:10 +0200
                  Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-07-06 12:50 +0200

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#210602

FromMatthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com>
Date2019-07-02 15:10 +0200
Message-ID<yfqHM-WM-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210595

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On 7/2/19 4:30 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
	
> A restatement of my question might be:
> 
> I run the i386 version of Debian 9.8.
> Using only contents of that set of installation DVDs, I wish to use a VM
> host capable of running multiple VM guests. Although the guests will be
> running in command line mode, the host should have a GUI.
> What choice metapackages provide that function?

You have your answer already in previous emails.

The Wiki provides a list of software capable of turning Debian into a VM
host [1]. They include full hardware virtualization such as Qemu,
containers such as Docker, and pseudo-virtualization such as Schroot.
Its up to you to determine which one best suits your needs, as all of
these VM host programs can do what you want.

    1:
https://wiki.debian.org/SystemVirtualization#Using_Debian_to_host_Virtual_Computers

To determine *which* installation DVD contains one of these programs,
you will need to look at the individual wiki page for each VM host
program, see which package or packages you need, and check the DVD .list
files to see which DVD contains that package [2]. You should also be
aware that each package may have untold number of dependencies, so I
suggest you look at each individual package [3], figure out the
dependencies, and then figure out which dvd those dependencies are on.

    2: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/release/current/i386/list-dvd/
    3: https://packages.debian.org/

Is this a lot of work? Yes.

Normally I would recommend VirtualBox for its ease of use, but
Virtualbox is *not* found on the installation DVDs.

Depending on your hardware, native virtualization might not even be
possible. I suggest consulting your CPU manufacturer to determine if it
is. If you are using an Intel CPU, you can visit their product page to
see if it supports VT-x [4]. I can't speak for AMD CPUs or other brand
CPUs, though it should be revealed in the output of lscpu

    4: https://ark.intel.com

If native virtualization is not available, you may be required to use a
container or a pseudo-virtualization option.

-Matt

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#210605

FromMatthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com>
Date2019-07-02 15:20 +0200
Message-ID<yfqRr-10p-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210602

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On 7/2/19 6:04 AM, Matthew Crews wrote:

> To determine *which* installation DVD contains one of these programs,
> you will need to look at the individual wiki page for each VM host
> program, see which package or packages you need, and check the DVD .list
> files to see which DVD contains that package [2]. You should also be
> aware that each package may have untold number of dependencies, so I
> suggest you look at each individual package [3], figure out the
> dependencies, and then figure out which dvd those dependencies are on.

Addendum:

An alternative method is to look at each individual package, figure out
which packages you need, download the .deb files for each package, put
them on removable media (CD-R/RW, DVD-R/RW, or a usb flash drive), put
the removable media in your host machine, and install from the removable
media.

On an internet-capable host, you can download the .deb for apps foo and
bar this way (without root access):

$ apt download foo bar

make sure you pay attention to the file name afterwards:

$ pwd
/path/to/file
$ ls *.deb
foo_3.14.deb  bar_2.18.deb

To install a .deb file, you can either use apt to point to the file:

$ sudo apt install /path/to/file/foo_3.14.deb /path/to/file/bar_2.18.deb

Or you can use dpkg:

$ sudo dpkg -i /path/to/file/foo_3.14.deb /path/to/file/bar_2.18.deb

-Matt

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#210620

FromLinux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de>
Date2019-07-02 23:10 +0200
Message-ID<yfych-5uu-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210595

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Richard Owlett writes:

> On 07/01/2019 01:43 PM, Linux-Fan wrote:
>> Richard Owlett writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I do not understand.
>>
>> It was an attempt to give you a list of packages that may allow you to start
>> using VMs without further checks ...
>
> That your answer was "a list of packages" is key to the communication
> problem.
>
> A restatement of my question might be:
>
> I run the i386 version of Debian 9.8.
> Using only contents of that set of installation DVDs, I wish to use a VM
> host capable of running multiple VM guests. Although the guests will be
> running in command line mode, the host should have a GUI.
> What choice metapackages provide that function?

Thank you very much for the rephrasing -- the use of `host` and `guest`
aids the description very well.

TL;DR: There is (AFAICT) no metapackage satisfying your requirements.

 * * *

The long version:

As far as I can tell, there is no Debian metapackage to install my preferred
virt-manager (GUI) + libvirt (backend) + KVM (hypervisor) setup:

	$ apt rdepends virt-manager
	virt-manager
	Reverse Depends:
	  Depends: mdvl-virtualization

	$ aptitude show mdvl-virtualization
	Package: mdvl-virtualization
	Version: 1.0.0
	New: yes
	State: installed
	Automatically installed: yes
	Priority: optional
	Section: admin
	Maintainer: Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de>
	Architecture: all
	Uncompressed Size: 0
	Depends: virt-manager, qemu, qemu-kvm, libvirt-clients, libvirt0, libvirt-daemon,
		 libvirt-daemon-system
	Description: MDVL Virtualization efforts
	 This metapackage installs common virtualization technology for MDVL, i.e. KVM and frontend.

For my local purposes, I have created my own metapackage (not in Debian...)
-- this is why I suggested a list of packages: I expect that installing all
of the packages yields the same result (except for automatically vs.
manually installed packages...) as if a metapackage were used. In case it is
of use to you, I can send you an e-mail with a copy of my metapackage
(it is about 4 KiB as per `du -sh`, but it does not do well for world-wide
publication because it is not Debian Policy compliant etc. thus not
uploaded/attached anywhere yet).

HTH
Linux-Fan

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#210713

FromRichard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net>
Date2019-07-04 16:00 +0200
Message-ID<ygarg-366-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210620
On 07/02/2019 04:05 PM, Linux-Fan wrote:
> ...
> 
> For my local purposes, I have created my own metapackage (not in Debian...)
> -- this is why I suggested a list of packages: I expect that installing all
> of the packages yields the same result (except for automatically vs.
> manually installed packages...) as if a metapackage were used. In case 
> it is
> of use to you, I can send you an e-mail with a copy of my metapackage
> (it is about 4 KiB as per `du -sh`, but it does not do well for world-wide
> publication because it is not Debian Policy compliant etc. thus not
> uploaded/attached anywhere yet).
> 

Please send me a copy.
I've a ~10 year old Lenovo T510 whose hardware should be new enough.

BTW my oldest machine is a Kaypro 10 ;/

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#210715 — Old computers (Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?)

Fromrhkramer@gmail.com
Date2019-07-04 16:40 +0200
SubjectOld computers (Re: Choice of VMs under i386 Stretch?)
Message-ID<ygb3X-3y4-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210713

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On Thursday, July 04, 2019 09:50:36 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> BTW my oldest machine is a Kaypro 10 ;/

Just for kicks, I'll mention that my oldest machine is a Digital Group Z-80, 
circa 1976, assembed from a kit, and with 2K on board RAM plus 2 auxillary 
memory boards with 8K each (iirc) for a total of 18K RAM.  Long term storage 
was via a cassete recorder / player with a speed control to adjust playback 
speed for best result.

I programmed some floating point routines in machine language, and had thoughts 
of writing things like a word processor.

I thought (seriously) about buying (or, more accurately, wished that I could 
afford to buy) a used teletype machine (for about $1500) in order to have a 
means of printing.

It (the machine) was working when I retired it, but I should make some fixes if 
I ever un-retired it (I took out the 115 volt AC cooling fan to use as an air 
mover between two rooms of my house),

Aside: the Digital Group machines were pretty neat in that the CPU was on a 
daugherboard, and they made CPU boards with the Z-80, the 6502, the 6800 
(iirc) (and maybe just the plain 8080) -- you could "convert" to any of those 
other CPUs by just buying, assembling, and changing out the CPU daughterboard.

BTW, that wasn't my first computer -- when I was significantly younger (i.e., 10 
to 15 years before 1976), I acquired two other things (both long gone, I 
think) that were called computers:

   * One was sort of a toy analog computer (one where you input numbers by 
doing things like using potentiometers to set a voltage to represent a 
number), and then read results on a meter (I'm somewhat oversimplifying that 
as I don't really remember much about that.

   * The other was something that I believed had computer in the name, but was 
used to control model trains -- the intent was that you could speak into a 
(built-in) microphone and it was supposed to recognize spoken commands (things 
like "stop" or "go" -- and maybe I'm misremembering the commands, maybe the 
logic was based on detecting and counting syllables in the commands).  It 
never worked very well, but I might actually still have it buried in a box of 
old model train stuff. ;-)

By the way, despite the years mentioned in this email, I am only 29 (or, at 
least, I try to convince women of that) (the same age (or was it 39) that Jack 
Benny always claimed to be, even when he appeared to be much older,

(I woke up with a headache today, and am not "in shape" to do any serious 
work, so I'd doing things like this).

Happy 4th of July (Independence Day) to all of us (in the USA or not).  I hope 
the soldiers that might be marching in Trump's July 4th celebration are not 
"goose stepping".

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#210717

FromNate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us>
Date2019-07-04 17:10 +0200
Message-ID<ygbx1-3X6-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210713

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* On 2019 04 Jul 08:51 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I've a ~10 year old Lenovo T510 whose hardware should be new enough.

I've a T410 running Buster amd64 and have simply installed the
VirtualBox binaries from the Sid repository (manually downloaded and
installed).  I also have QEMU installed for testing some ARM stuff.
Works like a charm.

> BTW my oldest machine is a Kaypro 10 ;/

I'm not that old, my original was a Color Computer 2 a bit over 35 years
ago.  The oldest machine I have now is an IBM T23.  Anything older was
given away or scrapped.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us  GPG key: D55A8819  GitHub: N0NB

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#210831

FromRichard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net>
Date2019-07-06 12:50 +0200
Message-ID<ygQqt-3Qt-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#210713
On 07/04/2019 08:50 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 07/02/2019 04:05 PM, Linux-Fan wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> For my local purposes, I have created my own metapackage (not in 
>> Debian...)
>>
> 
> Please send me a copy.
> I've a ~10 year old Lenovo T510 whose hardware should be new enough.
> 

Apparently runs fine. No need to add to my hardware pile.

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